patrick.net

socal2 says

u're defending a bunch of Jewish supremacists.

Virtually every country in the Middle East is ruled by ethnic supremacists. Sad fact of life in that backward and violent part of the world.

Yeah. Why should the United States be involved with it, provoking it, aiding it? I don't really care that Zionists are Jewish supremacists, I care my nation bends over backwards to support them. That's where I care.

socal2 says

Radical Islam of the Sunni and Shia variety have ethnically cleansed virtually every last Jew, Christian, Baha'i, Yazidi and Hindu from the Region since WWII.

The reason there's radical religion in the region now is that in 1953 the United States overthrew the democracy of Iran, and installed a brutal, repressive dictatorship and the only people stupid and crazy enough to stand up against it were religious nuts who were successful in 1979. As a result of that success of overthrowing a foreign power, it was realized only religious radicals were stupid enough and sacrificial enough to be able to overthrow foreign powers. This was used to the United States' advantage when the Taleban (then called the Mujahideen) was used to throw out the USSR in Afghanistan. That's what the movie Rambo III was about.

NoCoupForYou says

There was never a Palestinian state, so they are not occupied from Palestine.

A "state" is just a concept, lines on a map. There's no state called the Catskills, or the Apalacians - doesn't mean you can just displace the people there, does it? This is another, tiresome talking point of propaganda. The area was known as Palestine for millennia, even though it was just a part of the Ottoman Empire.

NoCoupForYou says

Jordan annexed it in 1947 but doesn't want the West Bank back, and Egypt doesn't want Gaza back.

Israel wants it back, and they will go to war for it. Egypt knows this, Jordan knows this.

NoCoupForYou says

75% of Palestine was given to the Arabs in the 1920s by the British,

Why were the British diving up land that didn't belong to them? They did it to keep the Middle East in conflict having fought the Ottoman Empire in WWI.

NoCoupForYou says

Then the Jews offered half of the remaining 25%, which was rejected and followed hours later with a massive attack by 12 Arab Armies and recent Arab immigrants conducting Guerilla warfare.

They weren't recent Arab immigrants. Here's the census of the British Mandate of Palestine in 1922:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_census_of_Palestine

And 1931:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1931_census_of_Palestine

Go through the numbers for each ethnic group. It's easy to see who the invaders were. Tell me, how much did the Muslim population increase compared to the Jewish one in 9 years?

The indigenous people feared that the incoming invaders were going to create a state ruled by them, and would push them out. That is the root of the conflict, and they were absolutely right, weren't they?

richwicks says

It's useless to discuss this when it's so fucking obvious what is going on. They're just Jewish bigots, it's as simple as that, that's all the are. You're defending a bunch of Jewish supremacists.

23 Arab Countries, almost all of which came about through Arab Imperialist Colonialism. You're opposed to 25% of the Mandate of Palestine, 50% of which is barren Negev Desert with no resources or agra possibilities, going to the Jews, though the Arabs have 75% of the rest AND 98% of the entire Middle East.

You're opposed to one tiny country, about the size of NJ and half of which is useless rock desert, for the Jews.

NoCoupForYou says

The term "Palestinian" never referred to Arabs until about 1960

https://cintayati.wordpress.com/2014/09/12/historical-maps-of-palestine/

Get to burning the books so the history is correct.

richwicks says

Yeah. Why should the United States be involved with it, provoking it, aiding it? I don't really care that Zionists are Jewish supremacists, I care my nation bends over backwards to support them. That's where I care.

Because the USSR gave the Arabs 1000s of MiGs, Arty Pieces, SA-2s, etc. in the Cold War to destroy it, twice and a whole bunch of raids before and after.

Because the League of Nations and UN never agreed to create an Arab State, since the Arabs already got 75% of Palestine Mandate to make Jordan.

richwicks says

Why were the British diving up land that didn't belong to them? They did it to keep the Middle East in conflict having fought the Ottoman Empire in WWI.

It belonged to them. It was given to the British by the Ottoman Empire, a bunch of Imperialist Turks controlling it beforehand for centuries. Never a Palestinian State, it wasn't even a province of the Ottoman Empire, but a subdivision of the Province of Syria.

The League of Nations agrees to the British control of the Mandate and allowed them to create countries out of it, like when they gave 3/4 of it, without any voting of the inhabitants, to Arabs. It's called Jordan.

richwicks says

https://cintayati.wordpress.com/2014/09/12/historical-maps-of-palestine/

Get to burning the books so the history is correct.

First, I said show me the usage of Palestinian referring to Arab Muslims as a separate and independent ethnicity. A map shows nothing.

I have a map of Ohio, and a map of Appalachia.

There never was a Country called the Ohio Butternut Republic, nor was there ever a country called Appalachia.

Nobody has ever referred to the "Appalachian People" as an independent nationality separate from the rest of the USA.

Just like nobody has ever referred to Ipswitchians as an independent nationality separate from England, at least not since before the Dark Ages.

There are also maps of Ostland, Germanic Poland and Germanic Baltics and Germanic Ukraine, but they were never recognized or even properly organized.

Please show me:

* A list of Palestinian Sovereign Rules (not Ottoman Beys, British Governors, Roman Dux, or Kaliphate Sheiks) - maybe Kalifa Laila the Haughty III, ruling from Ramallah?
* Her coins (not minted by the British with "Eretz Yisrael" - Land of Israel - on them in Hebrew)
* Postage Stamps from this Palestinian Nation prior to 1947
* What wars the Palestinian State was involved with and how it fell to the Turks/Byzantines/Arabs before 1947.

NoCoupForYou says

Because the USSR gave the Arabs 1000s of MiGs, Arty Pieces, SA-2s, etc. in the Cold War to destroy it, twice and a whole bunch of raids before and after.

The USSR died on December 26, 1991.

NoCoupForYou says

Because the League of Nations and UN never agreed to create an Arab State, since the Arabs already got 75% of Palestine Mandate to make Jordan.

Who gives a fucking fuck about the League of Nations of the UN? What right did they have to be involved?

When Count Bernadotte went to the new land of Israel in 1948 in an attempt to resolve the conflict, he was murdered by Lehi, who at the time was run by a triumvirate - one of which was Yitzhak Shamir. Once a terrorist always a terrorist - isn't that what is said?

Count Bernadotte made his name by running the Red Cross during WWII and removing thousands of Jewish concentration camp victims from their camps.

NoCoupForYou says

richwicks says

https://cintayati.wordpress.com/2014/09/12/historical-maps-of-palestine/

Get to burning the books so the history is correct.

Nice maps. I have a map of Ohio, and a map of Appalachia.

Those maps predate 1947. It was clearly a region, not that even matters. The point is people lived there.

NoCoupForYou says

* A list of Palestinian Sovereign Rules (not Beys or Viceroys or Governors) - maybe Kalifa Laila the Haughty III, ruling from Ramallah?

They weren't independent. That doesn't mean it was an unoccupied territory.

NoCoupForYou says

* Her coins (not minted by the British with "Eretz Yisrael" - Land of Israel - on them in Hebrew)

Indiana doesn't mint coins. Does that mean Hoosiers don't exist?

NoCoupForYou says

* Postage Stamps from this Palestinian Nation prior to 1947

Well you've convinced me, if they didn't have a post office, nobody could have possibly lived there.

richwicks says

The USSR died on December 26, 1991.

And yet NATO still exists, and the US provides military aid to Poland, shares intel with UK, etc.

The North Koreans haven't started a war with South Korea in 70 years, but we're still there and still supporting the ROK.

Just like the Soviets armed North Korea to the teeth and gave their blessing for an invasion, so did the USSR with Egypt, Syria, etc.

Why the double standard, why not the level of vitriol about other US Allies?

We DIDNT support Israel prior to the 6-Day War. The Israelis had French, Czech, and black market equipment for the first 20 years.

NoCoupForYou says

The USSR died on December 26, 1991.

And yet NATO still exists

Yes, it shouldn't exist.

NoCoupForYou says

You're opposed to one tiny country, about the size of NJ and half of which is useless rock desert, for the Jews.

The vehemence of his denunciations of Israel while he defends Iran really says it all. The Shah was a brutal dictatorship? Compared to what?

We have pumped billions into the Muslim/Arab world teaching them how to produce oil and billions more fighting their wars and protecting their borders.

But Richwicks is only bent that we also support the last religious minority in the Region to not be overrun by murderous Islamic terrorists.

Patrick says

richwicks says

They're just Jewish bigots

My Jewish father-in-law likes to say that "The Armenians are the only people more ethnocentric than the Jews." Kind of joking, since he married an Armenian.

But there is always some truth in humor.

What does your father think of the situation?

I just wanted to know the true history. It's clear to me that the Jewish Israelis will eventually expel the Palestinians in time and nothing will prevent it.

I'm just fucking fed up with the constant propaganda.

It's not like the Europeans didn't drive the natives of the Americas (at least in the north) onto reservations - those they didn't kill, but it's also not like the natives are confined exclusively to their reservations. Israel is just doing a slow motion genocide. It happens a lot.

BTW - there's a beautiful Armenian monastery in Dunlap. I flew over it a few times when I used to hang glide. They are at the top of one of the mountain peaks.

richwicks says

They weren't independent. That doesn't mean it was an unoccupied territory.

Bonk! Under International Law, to be an occupied territory, you have to be occupied from somebody else.

For example, France was occupied by Germany in WW2. France existed as an entity before WW2, obviously. The owners of Champagne, Toulouse, etc. were indisputably the French Government.

For Judea and Samaria, there are only two candidates for which country got occupied:

* Britain - void because they unilaterally quit the area in 1947
* Jordan - annexed the West Bank (with nobody's permission or recognition, but strangely, nobody gave a shit because Jews didn't do it), and then lost it in 1967.

But the Jordanians never gave it to the so-called Palestinians, they annexed it as part of Jordan, and as of 1982 they have renounced claims. And the Original 1964 Palestinian Liberation Organization's Constitution specifically recognized the West Bank as a Jordanian, not Palestinian, territory and insisted they did not claim it.

Only AFTER 1967 did the PLO claim the West Bank, when Israel conquered the illegally annexed and never-officially allocated area from Jordan, who has since renounced ownership.

Therefore, it's Israeli.

The Palestinians are a creation of Arabs and the USSR to find a way to eliminate Israel. The Soviets, to destroy a capitalist democracy and curry favor with Arabs, who control the Europe's oil. The Arabs, in the name of Jihad lest more areas of Arab Supremacy, like Phoenicia and Kurdistan, fall from the iron grip of Arab Imperialism.

The assertion of a never-before-seen Palestine and Palestinian People aside from Arabs, is simply a propaganda device to justify the elimination of the Israel.

richwicks says

They weren't independent. That doesn't mean it was an unoccupied territory.

Yes it does.

richwicks says

Indiana doesn't mint coins. Does that mean Hoosiers don't exist?

It means Indiana has no evidence of being an Independent State, nor an Ethnicity separate from "American"

If you allow the Arabs to fabricate a fake Ethnicity with no historical evidence, then any piece of territory will be vulnerable to propaganda creating a fictional ethnicity there, and demands another country "Release" that region.

richwicks says

They weren't independent. That doesn't mean it was an unoccupied territory.

Yes it does.

richwicks says

Indiana doesn't mint coins. Does that mean Hoosiers don't exist?

It means Indiana has no evidence of being an Independent Nation, nor an Ethnicity separate from "American". Those proposing that Indiana is "Occupied Territory by Amerikka of the poor Indianan Peoples" can't even show there was a reign by Emperor of Indiana, His Lordship Robert Knight.

If you allow the Arabs to fabricate a fake Ethnicity with no historical evidence, then any piece of territory will be vulnerable to propaganda creating a fictional ethnicity there, and demands another country "Release" that region.

Why didn't Palestinians wage terrorist acts against Jordan and Egypt/UAR when they were annexed?

Because it's a scam, they were happy to be ruled by their Arab Muslim fellows.

NoCoupForYou says

They weren't independent. That doesn't mean it was an unoccupied territory.

Bonk! Under International Law,

Jesus, who the fuck makes "international law"?

Quit appealing to "authority".

If "international law" said you had to get off your land and give it up to, I dunno, South Africans, would you?

NoCoupForYou says

richwicks says

Indiana doesn't mint coins. Does that mean Hoosiers don't exist?

It means Indiana has no evidence of being an Independent Nation,

And therefore, they have no rights to the land they've lived on, even if their family has been living on it for centuries?

These are stupid, deceptive, easily debunked arguments.

This is why I hate arguing about Israel. I get fed back the same STUPID arguments constantly. You are applying NO REASON at all. You're not thinking. You're simply repeating propaganda, mindlessly.

There was no "nation" in New Zealand before the Europeans showed up. Guess the Maori can just fucking die.

richwicks says

Jesus, who the fuck makes "international law"?

Quit appealing to "authority".

OK.

I support Israel because they are a religious minority surrounded by Islamic Supremacist maniacs who treat women and non-Muslims like dirt.

Not a hard call at all.

socal2 says

Jesus, who the fuck makes "international law"?

Quit appealing to "authority".

OK.

I support Israel because they are a religious minority surrounded by Islamic Supremacist maniacs who treat women and non-Muslims like dirt.

Not a hard call at all.

That "religious minority" surrounded themselves by the "Islamic supremacists". It was their, stupid, fucking, dumbass choice. They moved in. They created this stupid fucking endless dumbshit never-ending asshole situation.

You want to support it, go ahead. I don't want to support, and I'm not allowed to not support it. That's my objection.

richwicks says

Jesus, who the fuck makes "international law"?

Quit appealing to "authority".

If "international law" said you had to get off your land and give it up to, I dunno, South Africans, would you?

You're using the term "Occupied Territory". This has a specific meaning. Just like "Robbery" has a specific meaning.

If you say "X robbed Y", but it turns out you call X's grabbing of his own bicycle back from Y's driveway, the term "robbery" is highly misleading.


richwicks says

And therefore, they have no rights to the land they've lived on, even if their family has been living on it for centuries?

Wrong. The vast majority of Nakba residents were Fellahin, landless sharecropping peasants, paying Arab (and Turkish) Landlords in Ankara and Damascus rent. They did not own the land. Furthermore, armed insurgents can and are dispossessed of their territory, and have been since time immemorial.

The Turks voluntarily resettled huge numbers of Bosnians, like the infamous terrorist Tamimi clan, blonde and blue eyed Bosniak Muslims, in Israel. Are they Palestinians?


You know what you are, Blonde? Just not an Arab sonnama... but definitely a fellow Muslim.

Try not paying your taxes and shooting at county tax assessors, and when the Feds impound your house and vehicles and possessions, claiming you've been the victim of theft.

Seizing the property of armed insurgents is normal, legitimate, and excellent.

The British also seized the property of BOTH Jews and Arabs that contested British Authorities, as well as demolishing them, even if the perp wasn't the title holder, but merely the member of a family living there.

NoCoupForYou says

They weren't independent. That doesn't mean it was an unoccupied territory.

Yes it does.

You really believe that?

The "state" as the Western societies define it is not supreme, you communist idiot. You are.

God, I don't think I want to talk to somebody with "reasoning" as simplistic and jingoistic as you. People lived in that area, Jewish people moved in enmasse, they took it over, there's a conflict over that theft, from illegal immigrants I might add. That's the actual situation. You're just seeing it play out.

90% of the Jewish population in Israel are invaders. It's not like the US didn't do the same thing, or Canada didn't do the same thing.

The Jewish population of Israel will eventually exterminate either by driving out, or simply killing, the indigenous population. You're cheering that on. Aren't you a good person. At least you're not 'anti-semitic" - not that the Jewish people are actually fucking semitic. They are white.

I object to Israel for a simple reason, I don't support an ethnocentric nation because I'm not a bigot.

richwicks says

You really believe that?

The "state" as the Western societies define it is not supreme, you communist idiot. You are.

Do you understand anything about English Common Law? Look up Escheat. The only difference between US and UK law is the former changes "the Crown" to "the Government".

richwicks says

God, I don't think I want to talk to somebody with "reasoning" as simplistic and jingoistic as you. People lived in that area, Jewish people moved in enmasse, they took it over, there's a conflict over that theft, from illegal immigrants I might add. That's the actual situation. You're just seeing it play out.

Ad Homs are the final argument of those without one.

richwicks says

90% of the Jewish population in Israel are invaders. It's not like the US didn't do the same thing, or Canada didn't do the same thing.

Over 50% of Israeli Jews are from the Middle East, not Europe - expelled in the years before, during, and after by the new Arab States. Including long before the Victory, aka Nakba, the justified expulsion of armed rebels from Israel.

More innocent Jews were expelled from Iraq, Algeria, etc. than armed Arab insurgent rebels from Israel.

NoCoupForYou says

You really believe that?

The "state" as the Western societies define it is not supreme, you communist idiot. You are.

Do you understand anything about English Common Law?

What has English common law have to do with the Middle East?

A bunch of assholes in England determine policy for the Middle East? It's not their fucking property because it's not their fucking people.

There's a right to self-determination, supposedly. If that was actually upheld, a voted would have been taken on the division of Israel. Jewish people were the minority at the time, so it never happened. There would have been no UN Resolution 181. "Rights" are a myth. Law is arbitrary. Might really does make right. There's no law, there's no human rights.

NoCoupForYou says

More innocent Jews were expelled from Iraq, Algeria, etc. than armed Arab insurgent rebels from Israel.

Funny how dude said: "My family fled the Nazi invasion of Poland, we're not going back knocking on a door and kicking out who lives there now."

Yet that is exactly what he wants the Arabs to do to Jews who have been living in Israel for over half a century.

richwicks says

The Jewish population of Israel will eventually exterminate either by driving out, or simply killing, the indigenous population. You're cheering that on. Aren't you a good person. At least you're not 'anti-semitic" - not that the Jewish people are actually fucking semitic. They are white.

That's the new Leftist talking point, since the Left is now expanding Evil Whiteness (tm) to Jews and Asians.

Not according to DNA, anyways. And again, more than half of the Jews in Israel are Middle Eastern Jews who never left the Middle East since the diaspora.

socal2 says

NoCoupForYou says

More innocent Jews were expelled from Iraq, Algeria, etc. than armed Arab insurgent rebels from Israel.

Funny how dude said: "My family fled the Nazi invasion of Poland, we're not going back knocking on a door and kicking out who lives there now."

Yet that is exactly what he wants the Arabs to do to Jews who have been living in Israel for over half a century.

My family left for a better life.

Those people didn't leave for a better life, they were driven out at the end of a gun.

Jewish people today have far less of a connection to that land than I do with Poland. I'm not Polish, I'm American. I respect the people that stayed behind, suffered under the Soviet Union and managed to gain their freedom under Lech Wałęsa and solidarity. It's their nation, not mine.

The "palestinians" are most likely the true Jewish people of the Bible, who simply converted to Islam. Some didn't and survived there for centuries. The land belong to them, not the ones that fled.

richwicks says

What has English common law have to do with the Middle East?

You need to be able to follow your own argument.

You're arguing that the "State" is not supreme in the context of land ownership. I'm letting you know that even in English (and by extension, US, NZ, Aus, Can) Common Law, it is and has been before, during, and after the Colonization of the US, stretching all the way back to at least the Norman Conquest of 1066.

Anglo-Saxon states have constitutions (written or 'unwritten') limit the ability of the state to take without a compelling reason or justification, but the ultimate control of the land resides with the State. Indeed, removing privileges, ownership, and benefices without cause is the reason for several overthrows of Government, including the Glorious Revolution, King John being forced to sign the Magna Carta, and the US Revolution.

That's why Glibertarian Claims that there are no National Borders, but I'll shoot you if you cross my Property Border, are laughable.


socal2 says

Yet that is exactly what he wants the Arabs to do to Jews who have been living in Israel for over half a century.

Funny you should mention this. One interesting thing Saddam did was settle Sunni Arabs in Nineveh province of mostly Assyrians and Kurds, precisely to Arabize the Area, in the 70s and 80s.

It's amazing, when you consider how people actually think that a "One State" Israel won't end up like Lebanon, with the Phoenician Christians losing their majority due to fleeing violence overseas and having a lower birthrate, to the insurgent Shi'ite Bigots under Hezbollah.

Even funnier is when people deny that the "Party of God" or the Iranian Theocratic Regime isn't based on religious bigotry.

NoCoupForYou says

The Jewish population of Israel will eventually exterminate either by driving out, or simply killing, the indigenous population. You're cheering that on. Aren't you a good person. At least you're not 'anti-semitic" - not that the Jewish people are actually fucking semitic. They are white.

That's the new Leftist talking point, since the Left is now expanding Evil Whiteness (tm) to Jews and Asians.

There is no left/right - there is correct and incorrect.

Israel is able to fix the problem today, by simply drawing their borders. If there is a conflict, go to war, Israel will win it easily.

The reason Israel doesn't do this is that they intend to draw their borders all over the West Bank and beyond. They are an aggressive, expansionist state. They will move into Syria, Egypt, and Jordan in time. Eventually, like all states, they will will collapse.

There's no evil in being white, there is however evil in being a bigot, being a murderer, being a thief. That's not limited to white people, all creeds and colors exhibit these evils. I object when a nation makes it national policy.

richwicks says

The reason Israel doesn't do this is that they intend to draw their borders all over the West Bank and beyond. They are an aggressive, expansionist state. They will move into Syria, Egypt, and Jordan in time. Eventually, like all states, they will will collapse.

Exact opposite. And I can prove it.

richwicks says

There's no evil in being white, there is however evil in being a bigot, being a murderer, being a thief. That's not limited to white people, all creeds and colors exhibit these evils. I object when a nation makes it national policy.

Is Israel larger today or smaller today than it was in 1973?

richwicks says

There's no evil in being white, there is however evil in being a bigot, being a murderer, being a thief. That's not limited to white people, all creeds and colors exhibit these evils. I object when a nation makes it national policy.

Virtually every Muslim/Arab country has massive bigotry as national policy.

Yet you say fuck all about them - even though America spends billions propping up these dictators in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan......

There is only correct and incorrect - right?

NoCoupForYou says

richwicks says

What has English common law have to do with the Middle East?

You need to be able to follow your own argument.

You're arguing that the "State" is not supreme in the context of land ownership. I'm letting you know that even in English (and by extension, US, NZ, Aus, Can) Common Law, it is and has been before, during, and after the Colonization of the US, stretching all the way back to at least the Norman Conquest of 1066.

These are foreigners imposing rules upon a people that isn't part of their nation. The people of the area had no say in it. They had no representation at all.

NoCoupForYou says

Anglo-Saxon states have constitutions (written or 'unwritten') limit the ability of the state to take without a compelling reason or justification, but the ultimate control of the land resides with the State.

The Palestinians aren't part of that state.

NoCoupForYou says

Yet that is exactly what he wants the Arabs to do to Jews who have been living in Israel for over half a century.

Funny you should mention this. One interesting thing Saddam did was settle Sunni Arabs in Nineveh province of mostly Assyrians and Kurds, precisely to Arabize the Area, in the 70s and 80s.

Right, the United States shouldn't have propped him up, should they?

The killed him later, in December 30, 2006.

NoCoupForYou says

It's amazing, when you consider how people actually think that a "One State" Israel won't end up like Lebanon, with the Phoenician Christians losing their majority due to fleeing violence overseas and having a lower birthrate, to the insurgent Shi'ite Bigots under Hezbollah.

They will. That's what's so fucking stupid about this. Either assimilate with the greater region or die. They chose to die.

NoCoupForYou says

Even funnier is when people deny that the "Party of God" or the Iranian Theocratic Regime isn't based on religious bigotry.

It very well may be - so what? My nation isn't sending billions of dollars a year to keep those bigots going. They are sending billions of dollars to Israel to keep those bigots going.

richwicks says

It very well may be - so what? My nation isn't sending billions of dollars a year to keep those bigots going.

We have spent billions on Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, UN and lots of other bigots around the world.

Why do you only single out Israel?

socal2 says

It very well may be - so what? My nation isn't sending billions of dollars a year to keep those bigots going.

We have spent billions on Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, UN and lots of other bigots around the world.

Yeah, stop fucking doing that.

socal2 says

Why do you only single out Israel?

I don't - but Israel is the most expensive one and Egypt doesn't have refugee camps, Jordan doesn't have refugee camps, Pakistan doesn't have refugee camps, Saudi Arabia (a very despicable nation of tyrants) doesn't have refugee camps, Afghanistan doesn't have refugee camps, Syria doesn't have refugee camps.

Israel does.

They have a population with absolutely NO REPRESENTATION, they aren't a democracy or a republic in any way. The Palestinian refugee population's laws are written by the Israelis, not the PLO not Hamas. They have Dhimmi status, less than that.

richwicks says

These are foreigners imposing rules upon a people that isn't part of their nation. The people of the area had no say in it. They had no representation at all.

They had no say when the Turks ruled it from Ankara/Istanbul, or when the British ruled it from London, in the past 5 centuries before. Or when they were ruled by the Caliph in Damascus, Cairo, or Baghdad the 7 centuries before that.

They were invited to stay, and those who stayed have full citizenship with voting rights. Occasionally, when authorities try to restrict the traffic of an Arab Israeli thinking they are a Paleban with fake docs, they sue and win big bucks in court from the Israeli Government.

richwicks says

The Palestinians aren't part of that state.

The Israeli Government uses a mixture of Turkish and British civil laws for the most part; the same laws in effect over the past 5 centuries.

richwicks says

Right, the United States shouldn't have propped him up, should they?

The killed him later, in December 30, 2006.

The US used Saddam as a foil against the Iranians. Take a look at Saddam-era Iraq's weapon and industrial systems and tell me which two countries were his primary sources before the Iraq War.

richwicks says

It very well may be - so what? My nation isn't sending billions of dollars a year to keep those bigots going. They are sending billions of dollars to Israel to keep those bigots going.

Yet, you don't have the same level of vitriol over aid to Afghanistan and Egypt, or, before Trump, to shitty, bigoted, aggressive, terror supporting Pakistan.

richwicks says

I don't - but Israel is the most expensive one and Egypt doesn't have refugee camps, Jordan doesn't have refugee camps, Pakistan doesn't have refugee camps, Saudi Arabia (a very despicable nation of tyrants) doesn't have refugee camps, Afghanistan doesn't have refugee camps, Syria doesn't have refugee camps.

All of those have refugee camps. Syria, in particular, has refugee camps where after 3 generations, they still haven't extended citizenship.

richwicks says

They have a population with absolutely NO REPRESENTATION, they aren't a democracy or a republic in any way. The Palestinian refugee population's laws are written by the Israelis, not the PLO not Hamas. They have Dhimmi status, less than that.

Wrong, 20% of the Knesset is Arab. Guess what the population of Israel is Arab? 20%. Those are the Arabs that cooperated with Israel and didn't take up arms against Israel when the British left and Arab states invaded. Anti-Israeli types that depend on Mondoweiss and 973 and MintPress (Iran) News don't get this.

Want representation? Don't be a rebel.

Many groups are denied voting until "reconstruction". Unfortunately, Arab bigots are not amenable to reconciliation.

NoCoupForYou says

The reason Israel doesn't do this is that they intend to draw their borders all over the West Bank and beyond. They are an aggressive, expansionist state. They will move into Syria, Egypt, and Jordan in time. Eventually, like all states, they will will collapse.

Exact opposite. And I can prove it.

Watch it happen.

Of course it is!NoCoupForYou says

richwicks says

There's no evil in being white, there is however evil in being a bigot, being a murderer, being a thief. That's not limited to white people, all creeds and colors exhibit these evils. I object when a nation makes it national policy.

Is Israel larger today or smaller today than it was in 1973?

Yes. It is. The West Bank, it's almost entirely controlled by Israel today. That wasn't true in 1973. It wasn't even true in 1993.

richwicks says

Watch it happen.

It already did, 40 years ago.

richwicks says

Yes. It is. The West Bank, it's almost entirely controlled by Israel today. That wasn't true in 1973. It wasn't even true in 1993.

Nope, the West Bank is Israeli, and against my preference they are giving it to a fake people. Before that it was taken over by Jordan to no complaints from any Arab, including the Arabstinians. After all, it's only the "West Bank" if you're standing in Amman.

You're forgetting a huge piece of territory that was surrendered - in return for a peace treaty.

Not surprised you don't mention it, since I doubt your favorite sources ever do, as it's a huge counterfactual that basically destroys the "ever expanding belligerent Israel" narrative utterly.

NoCoupForYou says

richwicks says

Watch it happen.

It already did.

I'm well aware of this. You were denying it in this message

NoCoupForYou says

Yes. It is. The West Bank, it's almost entirely controlled by Israel today. That wasn't true in 1973. It wasn't even true in 1993.

You're forgetting a huge piece of territory that was surrendered - in return for a peace treaty.

Not surprised you don't mention it, since I doubt your favorite sources ever do, as it's a huge counterfactual that basically destroys the "ever expanding belligerent Israel" narrative utterly.

Israel will take it back. Watch.

I think it's funny you trust a country whose military's motto is "through deception, we make war".

I entirely ignore their statements, and just watch what they do. They'll take over Gaza at some point, and drive the people into Egypt just as they are taking over the West Bank who currently offers them no resistance, into Jordan and shrinking parcels of land.

They don't want peace, they want land, cheap land they can develop.

richwicks says

I'm well aware of this. You were denying it in this message

I wasn't denying it - you have no clue what territory I'm talking about.

richwicks says

I entirely ignore their statements, and just watch what they do. They'll take over Gaza at some point, and drive the people into Egypt just as they are taking over the West Bank who currently offers them no resistance, into Jordan and shrinking parcels of land.

You still have no idea what I'm talking about. I'll tell you later if you don't get it.

NoCoupForYou says

I'm well aware of this. You were denying it in this message

I wasn't denying it - you have no clue what territory I'm talking about.

Then tell me, because I was talking about the West Bank which they have all but taken over since 1973.

NoCoupForYou says

I entirely ignore their statements, and just watch what they do. They'll take over Gaza at some point, and drive the people into Egypt just as they are taking over the West Bank who currently offers them no resistance, into Jordan and shrinking parcels of land.

You still have no idea what I'm talking about. I'll tell you later if you don't get it.

Strange how you can't explain what you're talking about.

Gaza is a shithole that Israel tried to pass off on Egypt in the late 1960's. They didn't give anything up by getting rid of it. The United States paid the illegal settlers to move, to the West Bank. Israel didn't spend a dime on that.

Why is the United States involved?

And I guarantee, Israel will take it back. It was a fake "concession".

richwicks says

Then tell me, because I was talking about the West Bank which they have all but taken over since 1973.

By Spring of 1982, the Israelis withdrew from the Sinai, itself much larger than than all Israel, in return for a Peace Treaty with Egypt.

In Winter 1967, after the Six Day War, Israel wanted to return Sinai AND the Golan to Egypt and Syria, respectively.

The Egyptians and Syrians gave the famous "Three No's" answer:

On September 1, 1967, the Arab League summit delivered the "Three No's" - no to peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, and no negotiations with Israel. This declaration was passed as part of the Khartoum resolution, at a summit attended by eight Arab heads of state in the shadow of the Six-Day War, which saw Israel's speedy defeat of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. The conclusion of the war brought with it Israel's occupation of the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank and the Golan Heights.

https://www.jpost.com/features/in-thespotlight/this-week-in-history-the-arab-leagues-three-nos


This hugeass area, larger than Israel itself, was returned to Egypt. A small piece of the Golan was also returned to Syria as a mark of goodwill, but that was promptly returned with funding of Hezbollah terrorism over the Lebanon border, and artillery strikes by the House of Assad from the returned piece of Golan.

Little known fact: Gaza was also supposed to return to Egyptian control, but Egypt refused it - better to antagonize Israel with stateless rebels, than have to take responsibility for the attacks itself.

To this day, the Egyptian-Gaza border is manned 24-7 by hundreds of automatic rifle armed Egyptian soliders and a big ass concrete wall that nobody talks about. It is closed almost year-round. Egyptian Navy and Army routinely sinks Palestinian boats that intrude into Egyptian waters, civilian fisherman and smugglers alike without warning or discrimination. First, because Palestinians were smuggling drugs, but today because Hamas is smuggling guns and RPGs to Al Qaeda in the Sinai to attack the the Egyptian government with.

I'm in favor of Israel declaring Hamas the Government of the State of Gaza, so the next time a rocket attack happens - probably within hours of such an announcement, Israel can freely regard it as a belligerent, unprovoked attack by a sovereign state and has no obligation to allow aid in.

So much for the ever-expanding nonsense.

NoCoupForYou says

Then tell me, because I was talking about the West Bank which they have all but taken over since 1973.

Jesus.

Where is the West Bank? This is the land that Israel controlled in 1947:


And just so we're clear, here's the link to that:

https://www.ijs.org.au/partition-resolution-1947/

That was UN Resolution 181, what the NEWLY FORMED JUST CREATED state of Israel controlled.

Whenever I discuss fucking Israel I get a shitload of propaganda relentlessly shoved up my asshole. Bunch of twats that either don't know history of just lie about it and I'm dealing with some jerkoff that either has absolutely no idea what they are talking about puking out evangelical bullshit propaganda or some fucking propagandist that knows what they are lying about. It's tiresome.

Yes, let's fucking pretend Israel is shrinking. Yes, let's just fucking lie. Settlements are getting smaller, not expanding.

You do realize that the use of a military to take over Lebensraum is banned by the Geneva Conventions because Nazi Germany did it? Right? I'm descended by Polish Immigrants, the plan, the WRITTEN plan was to first enslave the Polish, then exterminate them, then bring the Germans in.

I find it fucking hilariously ironic that Israel is attempting to do the same fucking thing.

Did you still miss the Sinai?

Holy shit.

It's a fact, not propaganda, that Israel returned an area larger than itself in return for a peace treaty with just ONE Arab Nation.

This utterly nullifies any claim that Israel is "Continually Expanding".

Only a militant ignorant can continue to insist on an expanding Israel.

The Settlements have actual proof of ownership where Jews were expelled by Jordan during that country's unilateral annexation of the West Bank. The settlements 100x over would not be anywhere near the size of the Sinai alone.

richwicks says

Where is the West Bank? This is the land that Israel controlled in 1947:

This plan was never approved by the Arabs. They rejected ANY area for Jews and immediately attacked.