patrick.net

theOrangeManIsBad says

It's a big social engineering problem that could be solved with effective leadership and communication.

Leadership from who? The grocery store manager? Gas station clerk? Mayor? Trustee? Governor? POTUS? I don't know or care your political leanings, but if you want "leadership" to control your life, we might as well have a dictator. I mean, isn't that what Trump is anyway? Nah, now it's poor leadership, whereas previously it would have been him trying to be a dictator. Thing is you can't have it both ways without looking like an idiot.

theOrangeManIsBad says

Plus, people need instructions on wearing a mask. It might seem unnecessary, but a quick look around at people failing to do it right shows the opposite. The importance of messaging was also known back in March when people were considering mask recommendations. It would be nice if someone in charge could get the message out.

Messaging? You should die a gruesome death if you don't know how to wear a mask if you're not disabled. What are you even talking about here?

theOrangeManIsBad says

When you drive, you ideally wear a seat belt, have an airbag, stay alert, stay sober, avoid excessive speeding, and avoid distractions. You aren't supposed to say, 'I have an airbag, so I'm not doing those other things!'

Don't get the point. Data points to these safety items and laws working. The evidence (AKA DATA) does not point to masks working for THIS virus. You're comparing apples to centipedes.

N95 masks and higher if properly worn and disposed do protect the wearer to a significant degree, but you can't wear them for a prolonged time. If you work in a hospital around many sick from airborne viruses, you will need a full body suit, n/p100 mask plus face shield to fully protect you. Cloth and surgical masks do not protect but may be helpful to reduce droplet spread if worn by sick people. In daily life most of this is impractical and the use and reuse and improper disposal could have the opposite effect. The best protection is to frequently wash hands and not touching ones face and maintaining reasonable distance. The government mandates are unconstitutional and achieve nothing except for destroying the economy and killing more people of other diseases who are avoiding MDs, can't get diagnostic tests due to Covid over allocation or due to not being able to get a negative covid test in time. Heart attacks don't wait for covid test results.

mell says

N95 masks and higher if properly worn and disposed do protect the wearer to a significant degree, but you can't wear them for a prolonged time.

I'm going to look up the some of the studies I've read recently (I should save this shit, lol). So I'm not going to shoot you down immediately, but I've read (not opinion pieces either, studies) that even N-95 masks don't protect against this virus. I know for certain that I've yet to see a study where an N-95 for sure protects you from Covid.

There's a reason early on in March and April every business put up solid surface spit shield at grocery stores and gas station check out counters. Any virus is 100% known to not be able to penetrate a solid surface. Being a small town guy, our gas station put those up in April. I know the owner and most the employees. 10k cars drive by daily, so a lot stop for fuel, snacks and beer. Not one employee has gotten it and they don't wear masks. People hate anecdotal evidence, but is HAS to be taken into account. You cannot deal with 500+ people a day and not have ONE employee get Covid while not wearing a mask.

WookieMan says

I'm going to look up the some of the studies I've read recently (I should save this shit, lol). So I'm not going to shoot you down immediately, but I've read (not opinion pieces either, studies) that even N-95 masks don't protect against this virus. I know for certain that I've yet to see a study where an N-95 for sure protects you from Covid.

They don't protect for sure as they still let 5% in, plus the size of virions may be just below the filters. That's why properly equipped hospitals have their worker weear bodysuits fitting with masks and face-shields for dealing with highly infective airborne viruses. Most ineffectiveness though comes from improper wear and use. Also we're assuming the virus is airborne. You can't wear these masks for a prolonged time without damaging your health. Outdoors any mask is completely unnecessary. For brief periods of poorly ventilated indoor use I'd recommend N95 or higher if you are at high risk. If th me shops and restaurants keep windows and doors fully open mosy cases of transmission can be prevented.

Also keep in mind that South Korean hospitals were able to reduce transmission rates to close to zero just by instituting rigid and frequent hand washing and disinfection procedures for their covid staff, no masks or shields or suits. Which leads me to believe it may not be airborne for the most part. Fact is to this day nobody knows the main mode(s) of transmission. Yet the leftoid lamestream media and fraudci play the know it alls.

mell says

They don't protect for sure as they still let 5% in, plus the size of virions may be just below the filters.

And this is the standard for health professionals (I know you meant microns FYI). Yet we're supposed to cut up t-shirts and strap them to our face? It makes zero sense to an intelligent person. And I agree, there is a certain percentage of blockage and protection, but at the end of the day it's minimal at best and most likely useless. We've literally shut down mass gatherings everywhere and we're still seeing an uptick WITH exponentially more mask wearing. They don't work. There's no other data or evidence I've seen showing otherwise.

The problem is the mask pushers would have to admit we're testing at a substantially high level. That would mean Trump is doing it right. So they focus on the fact we have more cases and voluntarily omit the fact we're testing more than anyone in the world and blame the increased cases on people not wearing masks. And we all know who doesn't wear masks.... Republicans.

WookieMan says

mell says

They don't protect for sure as they still let 5% in, plus the size of virions may be just below the filters.

And this is the standard for health professionals (I know you meant microns FYI). Yet we're supposed to cut up t-shirts and strap them to our face? It makes zero sense to an intelligent person. And I agree, there is a certain percentage of blockage and protection, but at the end of the day it's minimal at best and most likely useless. We've literally shut down mass gatherings everywhere and we're still seeing an uptick WITH exponentially more mask wearing. They don't work. There's no other data or evidence I've seen showing otherwise.

The problem is the mask pushers would have to admit we're testing at a substantially high level. That would mean Trump is doing it right. So they focus on the fact we have more cases and voluntarily omit the fact we're testing more than...

The level of testing is insane, in fact we're testing too much now, but many of these tests are required for travel, MD visits and anything else. Yeah Trump did it right and the mask pushers are in the wrong, any outdoor mask wearing mandate should have been struck down immediately as unconstitutional and cops should voice to never supports such bullshit.

Denninger has reported on this numerous times. Here's a video showing the numbers and charts that expose this mask and social distancing fraud. Different cities, different strategies, different times of enforcing masks and the result is: No difference.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/0dBkf8O3vKg

mell says

Yeah Trump did it right and the mask pushers are in the wrong, any outdoor mask wearing mandate should have been struck down immediately as unconstitutional and cops should voice to never supports such bullshit.

Cops out by me won't enforce anything the gov comes up with. I'm fortunate though. It's worse in most areas. I don't interact with anyone best case 6 of 7 days. Mask or social distancing doesn't even factor into life. But whatever. To lazy to scroll, but I think it was Onvacation maybe? that mentioned masks are essentially armor and social distancing goes out the window. It's creating a this body armor phsycology that actually reverses the progress and make people think they're "safe" when in reality it's no different than not wearing one. Just don't get close to people and wash hands. Not complicated and we can still function as a society outside of mass gatherings.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/swedens-top-epidemiologist-says-we-see-no-point-in-wearing-masks-as-covid-19-cases-drop

Just last week, the Netherlands announced it would not be instituting a face mask mandate, arguing that research shows social distancing rules prove more effective at combating the virus than masks.

“Because from a medical perspective there is no proven effectiveness of masks, the Cabinet has decided that there will be no national obligation for wearing non-medical masks,” The Netherlands’ Minister for Medical Care Tamara van Ark said.

Patrick, you're wrong and all the evidence that supports masks not working is wrong. You're just wrong... just because ;)

theOrangeManIsBad says

Decades of science are not wrong. They just don't necessarily apply to a new virus. Plus, data scientists looking at generic (non-coronavirus 19) data back in March concluded that masks would be helpful. Fauci was reconsidering masks at that time. I'll take the data scientist over the naturopath.

1. Peer-reviewed science says that "masks do not work" for flu - https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article. I have not seen peer-reviewed research about corona, but I fail to see how it would be different, given virus size and similar spread. If there are articles in research journals (not youtube or NYT), I am willing to reconsider my position.

2, If masks are so effective, why NZ gov't did not requite wearing them? NZ was one of the very few countries that was able to completely suppress corona.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330388

It found there was evidence of potential benefits - but also potential harm - around masks and that the science wasn't conclusive.

But facts do not matter, orangeman still bad, and we all should wear masks as a sign of submitting to omnipotent government.

www.youtube.com/embed/6gnwgZli1_Y

theOrangeManIsBad says

WookieMan says

Don't get the point. Data points to these safety items and laws working. The evidence (AKA DATA) does not point to masks working for THIS virus. You're comparing apples to centipedes.

The point is you do multiple things to cut down risk. If masks help contain some virus particles of a sick person who does not know they are sick, then the masks will help cut down on spread of the virus. Masks don't have to work 100% of the time to be a sensible safety device just like a seat belt doesn't have to save you 100% of the time for it to be a sensible device to use.

Why don't 5 year olds sit in the front seat if we're going to keep going back to the car/vehicle analogy? Yet seat belts work, which I won't dispute. Answer that and you'll understand why masks are useless. You kind of solved your own conversation or argument if we want to call it that.

and awaiting moderation thing is kinda annoying

theOrangeManIsBad says

We don't have lots of cases because we test too much. We test a lot, because we have lots of cases

Because you said so? Dude, come on. Back up something you say. I've posted links and graphs that you can fact check. You can't just keep saying up is up when it's clearly down.

Lol brd6. Good video.

theOrangeManIsBad says

If you decide not to take any other precautions for coronavirus, because you are wearing a mask, it might increase your odds of dying.

What are the odds of dying from Covid? Hell what are the odds of even obtaining this "killer" virus? You're advocating for a solution that "might" infect 1% of the population.

A seat belt protects almost everyone in a car, except for the 5 year old in the front seat. Wearing a mask is the 5 year old in the front seat and you don't get it. Not sure how else to explain this. A seatbelt for a tiny kid in the front seat "can" save them, but it statistically doesn't. Hence why we have laws that prevent kids from riding in the front seat. Some laws make sense, mask wearing has ZERO evidence in stopping Covid. None.

If you want to die on this hill I really don't care. You've proven nothing that masks help prevent Covid. Myself and others have shown otherwise. Balls in your court to pull up the big boy pants.

www.youtube.com/embed/ox-0NusoIAA

Those can be easily sterilized after mfg.. We used to use ethylene oxide on polylactic-polyglycolic acid bone grafts (plastic that turned to mamalian bone in ~12 weeks on average) at a company I used to work for.

theOrangeManIsBad says

a sick person who does not know they are sick

Never before have we locked down healthy people to protect the immunocompromised.

What is the criteria for ending the masquerade?

theOrangeManIsBad says

mell says

The level of testing is insane, in fact we're testing too much now,

We don't have lots of cases because we test too much. We test a lot, because we have lots of cases. Positivity rates are still too high and testing takes too long for the testing regime to effectively prevent infections in locations where most of the cases are. Some states have too many tests, and some states have way too few.

There is no such thing as not enough testing currently anywhere, we're overtesting. Extreme testing is only useful in the beginning if you can still contain it. The cat has been out of the bag since March and we should only test those with symptoms and not require covid negative tests, thisnisnt Nazi Germany. Utter bullshit, unconstitutional and useless. Oh and a money printing machine for pharma companies. Instead we should be handing out HCQ, ivermectin, quercetin, zinc and vitamin D and C to everybody like candy for prophylactic use and as soon as symptoms arise. But that doesn't make fraudci and Co any money.

theOrangeManIsBad says

Here's an easy to digest article:

🤦 https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html



Mask mandate put out by CDC 4/24/2020. Most states are following up with their own recommendations by May and June.



You can post links until your fingers go numb. The actual data since mask mandates and recommendations shows masks ain't working man. At all. It shows the exact opposite. The number of cases is jumping hugely with probably 70-80% mask compliance indoors coming from a baseline of ZERO at the beginning of the pandemic. Mass gatherings still banned. Show me data of lower cases since masks recommendation came out and maybe we can get somewhere. Until that happens you're simply not right. Sorry.

The CDC graph above doesn't exist or happen if masks are even 20% effective. Anyone with a working brain knows this. States like Georgia and Tennessee have had restaurants at 50% plus capacity since early May. The bump in cases doesn't start in earnest until all the mask mandates come out.

People need to think. This is data that available to everyone. It's being spun into something else for whatever reason. Masks ain't working and no one has even remotely come close to proving otherwise. I have no interest in posting the dozens of other studies that show masks don't work when the chart above is so blatantly obvious it's almost comical. It would be a waste of time.

theOrangeManIsBad says

mell says

There is no such thing as not enough testing currently anywhere, we're overtesting.

WHO and CDC recommend lower than 10 percent positivity rate.
We have lots of states with higher than 10% https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-covid-19-test-positivity-rates-july-14.html

That means, we are testing a lot, because we have lots of cases in those states, and it also means that we are not testing enough for the current case load. We would be testing too much if we didn't have raging spread. If you scroll down to the testing area in the following link, you will see positivity rates for US and Spain are about 10 percent. For UK, Germany, it is under 1 percent. For France, it's about 2 pe...

That has nothing to do with testing. The positivity rate is what it is and it will automatically decline with going towards herd immunity. A lower positivity rate rather points towards fraud in the US like double counting (retesting etc.). Also the US is less dense so it will take a bit longer to bring rates down but nothing you cited can be influenced by even more insane testing.

mell says

A lower positivity rate

My wife has tested negative twice now. I wonder how this is calculated in the statistics?

Onvacation says

mell says

A lower positivity rate

My wife has tested negative twice now. I wonder how this is calculated in the statistics?

I tested neg once and will have to test again after vacation. I do think n95 masks and above help, not cloth or surgical. But we test so much that we catch plenty of false positives and completely asymptomatic people so any benefit of masks is hidden by crazy levels of testing. We have tested ourselves into a frenzy and feed off the additional positive results in a feedback panic porn loop ;)

2 per million die of Covid-19




100 per million die of traffic deaths.

With crazy death rates like that why are we not outlawing cars?

theOrangeManIsBad says

The major big change was that lockdowns ended, and people increased activity.

Travel man. Mass gatherings were the "lockdown" and nothing else. And they're still "locked down" at this point. Most places have had restaurants open since late May. I've witnessed this in person in Utah, Nevada, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Tennessee, Kentucky and Minnesota. I've flown in a plane. Been out in public constantly. Still no rona for me. Only know of 1 person in my first level network that has obtained the cold. She followed the rules. Crossed her T's and dotted her i's. If masks work, why did she get it? You don't have an answer for that besides you wear the mask "to protect others" or some other nonsense.

Why are the cases spiking again right now with most people conforming to mask wearing? You don't have an answer. It's either we're testing more or mask don't work. If it's not one of those two, please explain?

theOrangeManIsBad says

mell says

That has nothing to do with testing.

So, you think that the US has a high positivity rate, because people keep retesting positive people? FL has a positivity rate of 17%. The woman who used to run their data analytic program quit, because she was being asked to fake the data to make it look better. FL gov is definitely not trying to make itself or Trump look bad.

I'm sure we get false positives, but Germany, France, and UK also get false positives, and their positivity rates are less than 1%.

I do agree that our case numbers / actual infected numbers are much higher now than back in April. You can see this by the case / death rate. That means we are testing much better than in the beginning. OTOH, deaths are hovering at around 1K per day, which is within a factor of 2 from where they were at the peak in NY. Mell, what do you make of the high death rate in the US?

Sorry for your friend. It's irresponsible for MDs to assume COVID when there are a myriad of possible causes. It's almost medical fraud but they get money if chalked up as Covid. If it's 3 times negative it wasn't Covid unless you want to say testing is useless because unreliable. There are blood tests done every day that detect virus in the bloodstream where it's always present. Asthma, anemia, ILD, undetected heart defects all can hit young and seemingly totally healthy people mad cause low O2. Even wearing a mask for too long can. In elementary school a kid passed out briefly while wearing a mask during the CA fires. Low O2. Think about it why do all the European countries have hardly any problems with Covid while the US claims to. The reason is simple, because we're overcounting dramatically for political reasons, by popular vote and hate way more people have a reaaon to fudge numbers to increase Covid cases and we have seen plenty of examples eclipseling the one incident in FL you mentioned. It's a serious illness for the elderly and those with preexisting conditions. For younger people the flu is more deadly.

Also look at this article :

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfgate.com/bayarea/amp/California-flu-deaths-rise-to-74-a-huge-increase-12510722.php

"
The state tracks flu deaths only among those younger than 65, because health officials say it’s a more accurate measure of the severity of a flu season. This is in part because older people generally have weaker immune systems and their vulnerability to illnesses makes it more difficult to pinpoint the flu as the singular cause of death.
"

If you'd apply the same logic to Covid deaths would be 20% of what they're now.

mell says

feedback panic porn loop

Perfect summary of the whole situation!

theOrangeManIsBad says

We are currently at 52 deaths per 100K. There are only 3 countries that are worse than that: Peru, Italy, and Chile. We will pass Italy soon despite Italy getting hit hard early on before realizing how bad things were and despite their aging population. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Confirmed flu deaths each year are around 7-15K. Imputed flu deaths are around 50K in US. Imputed Coronavirus deaths so far have been 210K. Confirmed are 167K and counting. That's with major lockdowns and social distancing. Some people make comments based on the assumption that social distancing doesn't reduce deaths. If people went about life as normal, the death count would be much higher.

You are not listening to valid counterpoints easily refuting these numbers. We do not count ANY people over 65 as flu deaths because they often die with the flu but not solely of. If you took 65 and older out of the numbers you would have a regular flu season. Yes it is a serious illness like most respiratory viruses incl. the flu. Nothing more or less.

theOrangeManIsBad says

WookieMan says

You don't have an answer for that

Some people get coronavirus while being very careful, and some don't get it despite being reckless. Same can be said for driving or lung cancer or anything else for that matter.

That's how stochastic processes work. Most people don't understand this, but if you regularly do research and work with numbers, these things become 'common sense,' because you see it so frequently.

Again there's no scientific evidence. That's why many European countries don't recommend cloth or surgical masks. Ask yourself if there's a reason the US goes against the majority of top scientists and you will come to the conclusion it's political. Masks may make sense in narrow and poorly ventilated indoor spaces, if you want to protect yourself you need n95 at the minimum if you believe that the Chinese virus is airborne. That's all anyone knows for now, statistically speaking jack shit has been proven. There's a reason there's no flu mask on the market available cause there ain't one. Want some protection you need n95/n100, want guaranteed protection you need a full body hazmat suit.

theOrangeManIsBad says

Some people get coronavirus while being very careful, and some don't get it despite being reckless. Same can be said for driving or lung cancer or anything else for that matter.

That's how stochastic processes work. Most people don't understand this, but if you regularly do research and work with numbers, these things become 'common sense,' because you see it so frequently.

If true, wouldn't it be more effective just to quarantine the vulnerable?

Less than a thousand people less than 24 years old have died WITH covid. Virtually all of them had comorbidities or were immune compromised. Most of the deaths were from old sick people.

It's not about doing the right thing. It's about having the appearance of doing the right thing, which right now is masks.

Booger says

It's not about doing the right thing. It's about having the appearance of doing the right thing, which right now is masks.

Exactly. Demands for conformity are a hallmark of extremists.

Right now, the only extremists are on the left. No one on the right is demanding that you conform to anything.

There is an ongoing clinical trial about mask effectiveness in Denmark:

https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/record/NCT04337541

When they post the results, we will know.

Summary of what different countries recommend with respect to masks:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7118603/

Very different recommendations.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostakovitch says

awaiting moderation

I do miss reading AF's unhinged comments in real time.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostakovitch says

The only cure for COVID is RALLY! and nuking the Post Office.

do BLM rallies/looting qualify or it is only MAGA rallies that cure corona?

theOrangeManIsBad says

The coronavirus is much deadlier than the flu

And this is where you are wrong. A bad flu year can kill 80k people WITH a "vaccine" that everyone is so excited to get. We have no vaccine and questionable therapeutic treatments for Covid and double the deaths of a "bad" flu year. It's substantially less deadly than your standard flu and probably by a long shot. Again, it's math. Look at the numbers.

And frankly if you're scared of it just put your mask on and stay home. You have no right to tell other people what to do. That ultimately is the core of the issue. The statistics show Covid is not deadly or as deadly as plenty of other ailments. You say it is deadly just because. You've yet to back it up how and why it's deadly, so you push masks with zero scientific evidence. Move the goal posts now to n-95 masks, when you were pumping all masks. You're tripping over your own shoe laces dude and blaming the kid next to you. Unbecoming.

theOrangeManIsBad says

You keep lying. Surgical masks reduce aerosolized coronavirus from positive people. P=0.02, which means 2% probability it was by chance. This link was in post #60.

Nope. You just keep ignoring the fact we have more cases with mask mandates and most everything shut down. It's indisputable. If mask were even remotely effective we'd have seen a flattening of cases and not a doubling of cases. That's not what is happening. Not even close. It's summer and any restaurant that has made it is generally feeding people outside where we already know masks are useless. We're social distancing and wearing masks and this is the result?

theOrangeManIsBad says

You're projecting your motivations onto other people, and it reveals who you are. The economy is in the shitter and people are dying. Some people ask what they can do to help fix the problem. Wearing the mask is likely to help and is pretty easy. Some people refuse to be helpful, because FREEDOM!
I'm not particularly worried about myself as a health individual under 50. But wearing a mask is an easy way to help, and I'm not a selfish douche bucket.

We are doing everything asked and cases doubled AFTER that fact and still with the social distancing message from late March and early April. If it worked even remotely, cases should be flat or down. Not happening. Has nothing to do with freedom or anything. I wear a mask indoors 100% of the time unless at home. I stay away from people and if I'm near people we try to be outside. Only one person in my family will enter a store and we wash and have hand sanitizer in the car. If myself and many other are doing all of this, why are cases doubling from a time when no one wore a mask and were on top of each other in areas, bars, concerts, etc. You keep ignoring this.

The fact is this whole deal has been manipulated and politicized. All you have to say is we're testing more, but that checks a positive box for Trump and you don't want to. There's no vaccine and limited therapeutic medicines available versus the flu that can kill 80k in a bad year. By next year we're going to look back on this and be embarrassed by the reaction. Estimates from NY are coming out that potentially 11k deaths could have been prevent by not throwing sick people in nursing homes. Those 11k people probably spread it to 60-80k people.

We got false positive tests. We have diagnosis' based on symptoms with no testing. The number of deaths attributed to Covid is 100% for sure inflated. Feel free to keep believing these lies. I choose otherwise. No motivations. In fact I'm rejecting others 100% wrong motivations and ideas on me all while still being respectful. Can't say the same for you. Glad you assumed I wasn't listening to the handlers....