patrick.net

rocketjoe79 says

Bitcoin is being used on the darknet for drug trades, buying kidneys and who knows what else.

I know people who have started businesses with crypto gains, bought property and have donated mass amounts to charities of all sorts.

Cash says

Like I say all you want to do is be presumptive while being insulting.

Not trying to be insulting but my research has revealed that crypto implemented as a "currency" is a Ponzi scheme dependent on the next greatest fool for anyone in the system to make a profit. It has no intrinsic value and it takes massive amounts of electricity just to maintain. If the miners quit tomorrow digital "Gold" would evaporate into the ether.

Cash says

This is the argument you decide as you may no 1 cares https://kraken.docsend.com/view/ehvdmebb8gkveecj?utm_source=content+announcement&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=bitcoin+intrinsic+value&utm_content=content+link

Can you summarize why you think Bitcoin is intrinsically valuable?

Onvacation says

Can you summarize why you think Bitcoin is intrinsically valuable?

I have wasted enough time on you, your opinions have zero value to me as do mine to you..... Have a nice life....

rocketjoe79 says

Paper money has no intrinsic value, it's just a medium of exchange

Paper money is backed by the good faith and credit of the issuing country and can be freely exchanged for goods and services. Freely as in no transfer fee.

What backs bitcoin other than the faith that someday someone will buy your bitcoin, hopefully for more than you payed for it including the transaction fees?

rocketjoe79 says

Paper money has no intrinsic value

I disagree with that. The dollar is backed by this. https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=united-states-of-america

I dislike war, but if you don't want to use our fiat, our military can make you change your mind. Bullies are ass holes, but I'd rather be the bully than the victim. And it's what backs our currency. Then there's natural borders like the Pacific and Atlantic that make a successful attack a near impossibility without using nukes. Mutually assured destruction should prevent that. Resources in the ground. Massive amounts of fresh water easily accessible (bigger deal than most will recognize with growing populations). Guns. Our populace could fight for itself. These are actual things that back the dollar.

Will it last forever, no. But these are assets that help to support the dollar for the foreseeable future even though prices on everything will continue to go up and debt will increase. It's never getting paid, we just have the power to tell everyone to fuck off by killing them. That's the MIC in a nutshell and why we have it.

Cash says

Onvacation says

Can you summarize why you think Bitcoin is intrinsically valuable?

I have wasted enough time on you, your opinions have zero value to me as do mine to you..... Have a nice life....

Got it. You got nothing.

Others beware. When someone tells you they own this crypto and you should get into it because you can make a lot of money ask them how. If the answer is because it is the currency of the future ask them why. If they say it is the new "gold" ask them what intrinsic value does it have. If they have no answers don't be the next biggest fool.

Onvacation says

Others beware. When someone tells you they own this crypto and you should get into it because you can make a lot of money ask them how. If the answer is because it is the currency of the future ask them why. If they say it is the new "gold" ask them what intrinsic value does it have. If they have no answers don't be the next biggest fool.

There may be many bigger fools though - having said that, I wouldn't touch it.

Can anybody explain, exactly, how a bitcoin is divisible? It appears to me that the more a coin is divided the more networking power and time there is needed to validate it.

The main problem I have with it is that the problems it purports to solve it doesn't. Almost everybody has their bitcoin in an exchange, which is essentially an unregulated bank. They've never actually tried to move a coin from one wallet to another. Transaction times are enormous so really, it is NOT divisible - you can't buy a pizza with it - possibly you could purchase a car or house with it. It's traceable as well since nearly everybody keeps it in exchange.

Don't know when the tulipmania ends, I just know it does.

You know what is historically low? Oil. Generally 1 ounce of gold purchases 1 barrel of oil. 1 barrel of oil right now is about $40. $40*15 = $600 and one ounce of gold is about $1950.

Richwicks, I have my BTC on a Trezor device. I know that much, dont leave significant amounts of Bitcoin on an exchange. If I lose my Trezor I can restore it with a key.
My 1.9 BTC are divisible. "A bitcoin can be divided down to 8 decimal places. Therefore, 0.00000001 BTC is the smallest amount that can be handled in a transaction"
Or, are you asking something else?

Again, I wouldnt want to buy a Pizza with it :) and no starbucks coffee. I dont want to buy a house/Car either with it. I want to buy/hold and see the value go up.
I dont think Bitcoin is meant to replace the dollar for day-to-day purchases. Personally, I see it as a form of diversification/inflation hedge/digital gold/store of value.

I agree with Wookie, the dollar is backed by our economic and military strengths.

G36 says

FuckCCP89 says

Cash says

G36 and I are just sharing our current approach

Share the evidence of your spectacular winnings and you'll gain some credibility.

Not holding my breath.

FuckCCP,
I shared my screenshot, I havent claimed big wins.....I just starting putting money into BTC.

It's a good start. But the past performance is also important (even though they always add "does not guarantee future results" disclaimer). =))

Onvacation says

When someone tells you they own this crypto and you should get into it because you can make a lot of money ask them how.

No 1 even came close to saying that. what a joke you are in all your presumption and disrespect. Talk about running down a rabbit hole that is you through and through...

Eric Holder says

G36 says

FuckCCP89 says

Cash says

G36 and I are just sharing our current approach

Share the evidence of your spectacular winnings and you'll gain some credibility.

Not holding my breath.

FuckCCP,
I shared my screenshot, I havent claimed big wins.....I just starting putting money into BTC.

It's a good start. But the past performance is also important (even though they always add "does not guarantee future results" disclaimer). =))

I got no past performance with Bitcoin....i just bough recently. Wish i would have started earlier. I invested in stocks over the years (dollar cost avg) and have done okay there. Just like everyone else who bought stocks in the past 5-10 years.

Cash says

Onvacation says

When someone tells you they own this crypto and you should get into it because you can make a lot of money ask them how.

No 1 even came close to saying that. what a joke you are in all your presumption and disrespect. Talk about running down a rabbit hole that is you through and through...

on vacation, something is a bit off with you.....you claim you dont invest in anything but you make comments that make bitcoin look like a ponzi scheme and you keep mentioning gold/silver. Where is the motivation coming from? You also claim you are on vacation and therefore you dont need to invest in anything....Are you permanently on vacation? jobless or retired?

At this point i am not sure if i should expect any meaningful answer from you anymore.

Cash says

G36 says

I got no past performance with Bitcoin...

You are wasting your time....

shit, i think you are right....i need to stop responding.

Start with this Investopedia article on Automated Clearing House transfers:
ACH transfers are a way to move money between accounts at different banks electronically. They enable you to send or receive money conveniently and securely. This article will show you how ACH transfers work.
You may be using ACH transfers without even realizing it. If you’re paid via direct deposit, for example, that’s a form of ACH transfer. Paying bills online through your bank account is another. You can also use ACH transfers to make single or recurring deposits into an individual retirement account, a taxable brokerage account, or a college savings account. Business owners can also use ACH to pay vendors or receive payments from clients and customers. More than 24 billion ACH transactions were processed in 2019 alone.
ACH transfers have many uses and can be more cost-efficient and user-friendly than writing checks or paying with a credit or debit card.
From Fortune:
In response to an analyst question, Schulman said PayPal views cryptocurrency systems—which rely on a tamper-proof online ledger known as a blockchain—as cheaper and more efficient than ACH, which is the network that supports the existing banking system.
And then this article makes it sound like Paypal will be hoarding any BTC transactions that go through user accounts:
He explained that no additional integration is needed at the 28 million merchants and cryptocurrency transactions are “immediately settled into fiat,” adding that this method is “a lower-cost funding mechanism” for Paypal.
If the distributed ledger is, ultimately, not cheaper than ACH, then we're looking at a house of cards that ultimately collapses. Or else crypto has to provide enough value to do something that ACH isn't able to do (or take, for instance, the fact that Western Union transfers ain't cheap).

Cash says

Onvacation says

When someone tells you they own this crypto and you should get into it because you can make a lot of money ask them how.

No 1 even came close to saying that

Ever? How you gonna get your next greatest fool?

Cash says

what a joke you are in all your presumption and disrespect.

I am sorry you think my opinion about bitcoin is disrespectful.

I believe Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme where ultimately some people are going to end up holding some flash drives with no intrinsic value beyond their ability to store data. Billions will be made but not by the HODLers.

You seem to think that Bitcoin has intrinsic value but refuse to give a summary of why.

With Regard To Bitcoin:

If you wanted to give some wealth to an ancestor of yours, 100 years from how - would you use a currency, stocks, property, commodities (including precious metals), or bitcoin?

I don't imagine bitcoin will even EXIST before I die. That's why I won't "invest" in it. I mined one once. Somewhere around on one of these drives but it's not worth the time to recover it.

I heard the brothers that got fucked by Zuckerberg with him stealing their code have a ton of bitcoin stored on flash drives in a safe. I wonder if they realize NVRAM memory has an estimated lifespan of 10 years?

onvacation, there are many websites discussing Bitcoins intrinsic value. Cash has provided you with a link twice. He cant force you to read.
https://kraken.docsend.com/view/ehvdmebb8gkveecj?utm_source=content+announcement&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=bitcoin+intrinsic+value&utm_content=content+link

Are you not going to answer any questions? Since when are you on vacation? Jobless, or retired?

G36 says

on vacation, something is a bit off with you

I'm not the one claiming to have just invested $29K in Bitcoin and then say G36 says

I want to learn and invest in Crypto, mainly Bitcoin.

I'm just telling you my educated opinion

G36 says

you claim you dont invest in anything

Food and entertainment!

G36 says

you make comments that make bitcoin look like a ponzi scheme

No I don't. I straight up say that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme or it might just be a money laundering device.

G36 says

you keep mentioning gold/silver.

and real estate and stocks, investments with intrinsic value.

G36 says

You also claim you are on vacation and therefore you dont need to invest in anything....Are you permanently on vacation? jobless or retired?

I already lost one job from doxxing on this site. Don't care to share much personal info.

G36 says

At this point i am not sure if i should expect any meaningful answer from you anymore.

And I don't believe that you are a crypto novice coming to patnet for advice but it is fun playing.

Onvacation says

G36 says

on vacation, something is a bit off with you

I'm not the one claiming to have just invested $29K in Bitcoin and then say G36 says

I want to learn and invest in Crypto, mainly Bitcoin.

What is off with this? People were asking for screenshots....


"I already lost one job from doxxing on this site. Don't care to share much personal info."
So you are still working.....but you are on a permanent vacation? and because you are on a vacation you invest in food/entertainment. But you spend a lot of time on your vacation to bash people who invest in Bitcoin. How many vacation days do you get? For how many months / years did you have the name "onvacation"?

richwicks says

I heard the brothers that got fucked by Zuckerberg with him stealing their code have a ton of bitcoin stored on flash drives in a safe.

Per NYTimes interview:
The Winklevosses came up with an elaborate system to store and secure their own private keys. They cut up printouts of their private keys into pieces and then distributed them in envelopes to safe deposit boxes around the country, so if one envelope were stolen the thief would not have the entire key.

G36 says

So you are still working.....but you are on a permanent vacation? and because you are on a vacation you invest in food/entertainment. But you spend a lot of time on your vacation to bash people who invest in Bitcoin. How many vacation days do you get? For how many months / years did you have the name "onvacation"?

It used to be frowned upon on this site to discuss other users. To the point that the word "you" would be automatically highlighed in red to make you think twice whether you might want to rethink the post.

Just sayin'

Eric Holder says

It used to be frowned upon on this site to discuss other users. To the point that the word "you" would be automatically highlighed in red to make you think twice whether you might want to rethink the post.

Yeah, it was ridiculous. Don't you agree, or do you think think is added to the conversation?

G36 says

But you spend a lot of time on your vacation to bash people who invest in Bitcoin.

I bash Bitcoin and I think people who invest in it are foolish because it is a gamble. There is nothing there.

Bitcoin is dependent on early adopters getting paid by later "investors". If it goes way up in price AND you sell it you will make money. If it goes way down in price and you sell it you will lose money. If you just Hold On for Dear Life (HODL) eventually your "wallet" will turn in to a flash drive with some really expensive bits that nobody wants to buy.

Having stated my opinion I will admit that I could be wrong and those "coins" in your "wallet" that were created by "mining" hash tables at huge costs of energy really is digital "gold" and I am missing out.

But I don't care because I have plenty of food and entertainment!

richwicks says

Eric Holder says

It used to be frowned upon on this site to discuss other users. To the point that the word "you" would be automatically highlighed in red to make you think twice whether you might want to rethink the post.

Yeah, it was ridiculous. Don't you agree, or do you think think is added to the conversation?

It was a bit too much. Could be dealt with a heartfelt FUCK OFF instead of rigid guardrails. =))

Eric Holder says

G36 says

So you are still working.....but you are on a permanent vacation? and because you are on a vacation you invest in food/entertainment. But you spend a lot of time on your vacation to bash people who invest in Bitcoin. How many vacation days do you get? For how many months / years did you have the name "onvacation"?

It used to be frowned upon on this site to discuss other users. To the point that the word "you" would be automatically highlighed in red to make you think twice whether you might want to rethink the post.

Just sayin'

ehm, people asked me to post screenshots of my investments and i did but i cant ask how many vacation days "onvacation" gets? He wont answer the questions anyway. He tells us that his investments are in food and entertainment, yet he is so motivated to bash bitcoin and people that invest in it....whats the motiviation for it? smells like gold/silver bug to me. Nothing wrong with investing in Gold but he seems pissed and not interested in having a meaningful discussion. (he asks for intrinsic value, you send him the link, he ignores it and just asks again)

Onvacation says


Bitcoin is dependent on early adopters getting paid by later "investors". If it goes way up in price AND you sell it you will make money. If it goes way down in price and you sell it you will lose money. If you just Hold On for Dear Life (HODL) eventually your "wallet" will turn in to a flash drive with some really expensive bits that nobody wants to buy.

Having stated my opinion I will admit that I could be wrong and those "coins" in your "wallet" that were created by "mining" hash tables at huge costs of energy really is digital "gold" and I am missing out.



fair enough. I have no idea where the price for one Bitcoin will be in 1 year. I am speculating it will be much higher than what it is today. And I think the whole early adopter thing is not true. At what point in time are you still an early adopter? When you start speculating in 2016? 2014? 2019? Maybe 2020 will still be early adoption. Just look at companies like Square and Paypal. Those maybe are the early institutional investors/adopters? Nobody really knows. Obviously, as the market cap and price grows, the future gains from a % point of view probably wont be as high as they were in the early days. But you had a lot more risk in the early days too.

Crypto has no intrinsic value. It is backed by nothing real. It has very limited use in commerce if your not an international terrorist or narco kingpin. Most people that hold it plan on one day selling it to someone that will pay more for it than they did (including transaction fees). It has artificial scarcity and takes an incredible amount of electricity just to keep the network going.

Bitcoin sounds more like a liability than an asset.

G36 says

(he asks for intrinsic value, you send him the link, he ignores it and just asks again)

You sent me a link to a book. I asked you to summarize. Do you have a simple answer to the question of "what is the intrinsic value of bitcoin?"

I found this smug prick to be pretty compelling. His buy in was 500 million bucks!
www.youtube.com/embed/WrR95PFYDFQ&feature=emb_logo
Another factor is if entities like this one are successful attracting institutional investors:
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the-wealthy-are-hoarding-10-billion-of-bitcoin-in-bunkers?utm_source=pocket-newtab
BTC gives me the creeps, which might be a contrary indicator.

Hey what about silver... we be like


This is week we dancing for sure ;))) Nice gains

Any other PM gold bugs?

Onvacation says

Crypto has no intrinsic value. It is backed by nothing real. It has very limited use in commerce if your not an international terrorist or narco kingpin. Most people that hold it plan on one day selling it to someone that will pay more for it than they did (including transaction fees). It has artificial scarcity and takes an incredible amount of electricity just to keep the network going.

Bitcoin sounds more like a liability than an asset.

G36 says

(he asks for intrinsic value, you send him the link, he ignores it and just asks again)

You sent me a link to a book. I asked you to summarize. Do you have a simple answer to the question of "what is the intrinsic value of bitcoin?"

No, I dont think I have a simple answer for you. If there were a simple answer you probably would already have heard it. Take other forms of money like the US dollar. Whats the intrinsic value of a 100 dollar bill? a few cents production cost?
No, the value is 100 dollars for this piece of paper because its backed by the US government and the world believes in it. You may re-produce the same type of paper and it will look very authentic but nobody would accept it because its not backed by the US Government.

Why do some people buy AMZN stock at 3.2K? You may argue the intrinsic value of one Amazon stock is much less. I bought Tesla and other tech stocks and I dont care if someone tells me, but wait, you overpaid, I calculated the intrinsic value to be only X. I had people tell me that TSLA might not even make it due to their financial situation and wishful estimations. Fast forward and the stock went nuts. It was speculation on my part, probably luck and my disregard for people who argued its not worth that much.
My point is, we most likely dont arrive on the same page here. Which is totally fine. This discussion probably doesnt get us anywhere. I dont "invest"/speculate in Bitcoin because of its intrinsic value. I invest in it because I believe its price has a lot of upside. For me its a store of value and I can see there is adoption by well known entities/Nasdaq listed companies. I also like the traits of Bitcoin in comparison to other similar forms of money. If I am only concerned about intrinsic value I might as well just invest in food and entertainment, but that wont increase my wealth over time.

G36 says

I invest in it because I believe its price has a lot of upside.

If you call investing depending on the greater fool to pay more for your "coin", go for it.

I don't buy into pyramid schemes but I hear SOME people make a lot of money from them.

G36 says

I also like the traits of Bitcoin in comparison to other similar forms of money.

Yeah. It's probably better than my https://patrick.net/post/1314087/2018-02-28-getrichquickcoins

G36 says

You sent me a link to a book. I asked you to summarize. Do you have a simple answer to the question of "what is the intrinsic value of bitcoin?"

No, I dont think I have a simple answer for you.

I'll help.

Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. It only has value if someone else is willing to pay you for it.

Onvacation says

G36 says

You sent me a link to a book. I asked you to summarize. Do you have a simple answer to the question of "what is the intrinsic value of bitcoin?"

No, I dont think I have a simple answer for you.

I'll help.

It only has value if someone else is willing to pay you for it.

Yes, of course. I dont buy Bitcoin at the current price (value) because I hope it will stay at that price (value). I put money in Bitcoin because I believe someone (the market) will pay more in the future for it. Same with tech stocks BTW. The number of Bitcoin addresses is growing and the number of Nasdaq listed companies that either invest in Bitcoin or build infrastructure to transact Bitcoin is also growing (Paypal, Microstrategies, Square). I absolutely think that the market ("someone willing to pay for it") will grow.

If I dont believe that someone else will pay more for my tech stock, Bitcoin or my fixer upper in the future compared to what I pay today, why would I want to invest in it? Thats what almost any market is. You invest/speculate with something because you believe the future price is higher as long it still meets your risk profile.

Your risk profile lets you only invest in food/entertainment. That's fine. My risk profile allows me to invest in something thats highly volatile without losing sleep. Someone else might speculates with leveraged trading vehicles and may lose or win big. And someone else might like to go to Vegas and put it all on red. I dont call any of these people names because its their choice and its legal.

OnVacation, After reading your comments I think you really don't invest in much other than food/entertainment as you said. First, your story didn't make much sense to me, you are just on vacation (indefinitely, but you still work) and because of being onvacation you invest only in food/entertainment. Yet you take all this time to call people greater fools and idiots that invest in Bitcoin.
After reading your comments about pyramid schemes etc. I think you might have gotten burnt by investing in something in the past and therefore you wont put money into something that is speculative/risky or has no simple answer of intrinsic value. I think that is totally fine. What I didn't think is a bit too much is calling Bitcoin speculators/investors greater fools or calling it a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal. Its meant to ruin people and only benefit a few on the top. That shows me you have a strong hostility against people that like to invest in Bitcoin. You don't say these things about people investing in tech stocks, even though we could argue that the value of a certain tech stock is way above its intrinsic value, or do you?

G36 says

I dont buy Bitcoin at the current price (value) because I hope it will stay at that price (value). I put money in Bitcoin because I believe someone (the market) will pay more in the future for it. Same with tech stocks BTW.

Nice it's all the same as you say, regardless any active professional trader or investor will tell you all markets are a "looking forward" game not so much a look in the review mirror situation for the absolutely most part. BTW I never got around to setting my SL which in this case a SL wouldn't of been set to save me from ruin just a shot at discount pricing lol
Price is again above 15250 and Sunday morning US can often turn into a sweet spot for price movement the same when the Asian markets opens this evening. I have other crypto which depending when BTC "HITS" 16800 I may sell due to how hot it should be when it lands there. Good investing.

G36 BTW, BTC also became a high probability "BUY" 4hr as soon as it breached up above 15100