patrick.net

GlocknLoad says

1) What is to stop the controllers of physical to simply make it extremely difficult (I understand it already is but they could increase the difficulty) and EXPENSIVE for someone to take delivery? This could be a way for them to stay solvent…by simply passing their losses to those who want delivery by increasing the costs of delivery.

Nothing. They do this all the time.

GlocknLoad says

2) How does the Monkey Hammering happen? What, exactly, are the controllers doing to push the price down?

Options trading. Often the price of the PM's are driven down in the middle of the night when there's light trading. The banks can do naked shorting, this means they are shorting the commodity without putting up any money to do it. They are massive banks after all and when they fail, they get a tax payer funded bailout.

GlocknLoad says

3) When they push the price down, they are only pushing down the price of paper silver, correct?

More or less. You get high premiums. MOST online places will only pay spot if you sell, but not all. Premiums of $10 an ounce isn't uncommon. It doesn't usually stay that divergent for long. Generally what happens is that silver gets smashed in a few weeks, banks try to cover their short positions, and everybody is buying something that tracks the price of silver for that brief interval.

GlocknLoad says

4) What other avenue (I assume PM dealers) does the retail investor have to buy AND sell silver at the true price?

eBay? Not much. Coin dealers can setup a direct purchase and sale between people, if you're friendly with the dealer. The seller gets a better price, you get a better price, and the coin dealer doesn't have to do any shipping.

GlocknLoad says

5) Do the controllers even recognize as fact the real price of PMs? I assume no.

They know it will blow up at some point, they just keep staving it off. WHEN it blows up, it's going to blow up.

Our banks are just fraud organizations. The dollar used to be $20 for approximately (a little less) an ounce of gold. Then the Fed created more dollars than gold to back it up - this is counterfeiting. This game went on fro 1913 to around 1933 then FDR made it illegal for AMERICANS to own gold, then revalued gold to $35 an ounce. This game went on until 1971 when the Fed continued to counterfeit MORE money. The London gold pool was setup in an attempt to keep gold down, but foreigners kept on exchanging their toilet paper for gold. It collapsed in the late 1960's.

In 1971, the Nixon Shock happened - where the US "temporarily" suspended gold convertibility.

Officially gold is still $35 an ounce.

They're doing the same thing with silver but it's more opaque, however, it's more obvious too.

15 years ago I thought "surely the government wouldn't allow THIS?" - like allowing the coin and bar market to just dry up, or allow companies to just outright steal (Hannes Tulving did this) - the government doesn't prosecute any criminality at all in the PM area. None. They want to keep the price down, because dollars are worthless.

If you buy PMs, you buy them, and sit on them, and forget them. It's not like a stock and once you feel real money, it's kind of addictive. Holding a gold St. Gaudens is an experience. It way more heavy than you expect, and you're holding about $1.8 grand today. Felt the same way when I was holding one at $450.

richwicks says

GlocknLoad says

1) What is to stop the controllers of physical to simply make it extremely difficult (I understand it already is but they could increase the difficulty) and EXPENSIVE for someone to take delivery? This could be a way for them to stay solvent…by simply passing their losses to those who want delivery by increasing the costs of delivery.

Nothing. They do this all the time.

GlocknLoad says

2) How does the Monkey Hammering happen? What, exactly, are the controllers doing to push the price down?

Options trading. Often the price of the PM's are driven down in the middle of the night when there's light trading. The banks can do naked shorting, this means they are shorting the commodity without putting up any money to do it. They are massive banks after all and when they fail, they get a t...

Thank you for the time it took you to respond. I do truly appreciate your effort.

Btw, what is your vocation?

Onvacation says

Silver is undervalued. It spiked to $50 an ounce over 40 years ago and its price has supposedly been manipulated ever since. I suspect the price will pass $50 an ounce for metal in your hand soon, maybe a lot more.

You're talking about the short squeeze in early 80's when a couple brothers tried to corner the market. More recently it peaked at around $40. If you like investments outside of central bank control, this is about the best. But it's a long game. Hold and swap on the peaks, usually around 70 and 30.

WineHorror1 says

Btw, what is your vocation?

Well, technically I'm an electrical engineer, in reality I'm a code jockey, currently, I'm a worthless bum.

I go in manic phases and currently, I'm "pre-manic". I work in Silicon Valley, and I'm kind of disgusted with every fucking company here. Technology I regarded as a way to free and educate humanity, and lo and behold I was a sucker and helped enslave it. Got to figure out how to fix that.

Onvacation says

If you actually want to buy physical silver it starts around $32/ ounce, if you can find it.

Less now, you can get it below 30 if you buy large items.

https://www.apmex.com/product/218833/2021-australia-1-kilo-silver-kookaburra-bu

richwicks says

lo and behold I was a sucker and helped enslave it. Got to figure out how to fix that.

Funny enough, that is exactly what I am doing now. I am 95% complete on a project that will enable real estate photographers break free from the large tour companies. I believe what I am creating is a chance to decentralize real estate photography.

Rb6d says

Onvacation says

If you actually want to buy physical silver it starts around $32/ ounce, if you can find it.

Less now, you can get it below 30 if you buy large items.

https://www.apmex.com/product/218833/2021-australia-1-kilo-silver-kookaburra-bu

That "coin" went up $50 today. If you were to buy that kilo lump of silver it would cost $29.80 an ounce.

I called an old friend of mine that runs a coin shop in the Napa Valley. He has product and he is selling Silver Eagles (one ounce US Bullion) for $38 each. He has less than 500 and can't order any more. He also has some 100 ounce bars he is selling for $2900. That was this morning. Price may be higher or product may be unavailable now.

The current paper price is around $27, with a higher than average bid ask range.

SO, like others have said, you can buy silver, but at no where near the paper price.

That kilocoin of silver went up another dollar in the time it took me to write this post.

Onvacation says

That kilocoin of silver went up another dollar in the time it took me to write this post.

Another $5 in the last two hours.

Onvacation says

Another $5 in the last two hours.

yeah, interesting. The crap hitting the fan reminds me of late Soviet Union, with "temporary shortages" lasting months or years. I am trying to buy some 300 win mag ammo, there is none absolutely for less than 3-4$/round, and it should cost about 1$. More popular guns are sold out, now silver, what is next? Food, gasoline after Bidet shuts down pipelines and allows us to eat only responsibly sourced insects?

Be surprised if we see spot price of $50 before it hits $20, the banksters will “find” more silver to sell than he Democrat’s found Biden ballots in the middle of the night. They simply will not let the silver ship sail. They will dump fake silver on the market even if it costs them billions. They know that in the end the Fed will always bail them out.

Nobody is shorting Silver this is a psyops to get Silver to where they've been trying to get it for years and years.

The earliest version of Patnet I can remember, after the housing crash. Many people missed the boat on Gold, so they were trying to get Silver to take off.
Lots of Silver hawks back then. Silver has no business over $12oz. But I wouldn't try to short a Silver rally. They hold on to hope for years and years. They will pump it up as long as it takes. It will never happen, but neither will your short.

Tenpoundbass says

Silver has no business over $12oz.

It costs double that to mine and refine it. It has lots of industrial uses and gets consumed. I think it is worth at least $50 an ounce for nicely minted (easily recognized as real) coins. I think that is where the real equilibrium between supply and demand is, around $50 an ounce.

Time will tell if it's different this time.

Rb6d says

Bidet

Lol, love this.

Personally, what I really want to own is income producing assets.

Paper ones like stocks have done well, but are very volatile now.

Instead of gold or silver, I'd like to own, say, a large windmill that produces electricity but doesn't cost much to maintain. Or maybe prime farm land, if Bill Gates hasn't bought it all already.

Onvacation says

He has product and he is selling Silver Eagles (one ounce US Bullion) for $38 each.

How much will he pay for them? Haven't been to wine country in a while.

NuttBoxer says

Just keep in mind, at market peak, all premiums disappear. No one will give a fuck what coin you have, only how much silver is in it.

Not exactly true. Rare coins (numismatics) can be worth significantly more than their melt value.

Still, it's worth about $15,000 melt or so - I wouldn't bother to sell. Not in times like these anyhow.

Dollar is going to gain more strength and everything will be hurt for the short term. I'm super bullish on silver it's already up 157% since March madness. Pre-production is my sweet spot! SilverCrest, Alexco or Aurcana. Or the easy way to play it would be SILJ mostly mid-tier miners. This will be a rodeo of a bull ride. Got to hold on tight or you'll get shaken off. Hi ho

The Big Silver Short - check out book if you want to read more

mich says

Dollar is going to gain more strength and everything will be hurt for the short term. I'm super bullish on silver it's already up 157% since March madness. Pre-production is my sweet spot! SilverCrest, Alexco or Aurcana. Or the easy way to play it would be SILJ mostly mid-tier miners. This will be a rodeo of a bull ride. Got to hold on tight or you'll get shaken off. Hi ho

The Big Silver Short - check out book if you want to read more

Why does it keep going down then?

Some are saying the Silver push is hedgies trying to trick retail investors to pump up the price of Silver to make up for GME situation.

"Astroturfing"

Not invested in that theory, just mentioning it.

NoCoupForYou says

Some are saying the Silver push is hedgies trying to trick retail investors to pump up the price of Silver to make up for GME situation.

"Astroturfing"

Not invested in that theory, just mentioning it.

I doubt it. If silver is driven up to $1000, it's the end of the US government because it's the end of the US dollar.

There won't be a fake attack on the capital when that happens, there will be politicians and bankers swinging from lampoles and blood in the streets. The military will fire on US citizens. It will be at least as bad as the French Revolution.

99% of the population will have NOTHING to lose. Credit will end, imports will end, pensions will be worthless. With no credit, all corporations collapse, and that's the end of food delivery. It will force a revolution.

Currency collapses don't end governments. Yes, it will force them to downsize significantly because the populace just got a lot more poor. The only thing they end is savings accounts. Companies are still intact and labor's value probably drops significantly. But Mad Max, it is not. Moreover, this is one of the most attractive potential aspects of crypto is that it will give people can escape route.

Typically, people in Argentina would always hold their savings in dollars to avoid their frequent currency collapses. The government would magically come in and convert their savings to Argentina Pesos and screw them over.

theoakman says

Moreover, this is one of the most attractive potential aspects of crypto is that it will give people can escape route.

I find it hard to believe that the government could not destroy Bitcoin if it felt the need.

If everything is backed by debt, and the fed owns all the debt, is that socialism?

Onvacation says

I think it is worth at least $50 an ounce for nicely minted

The problem is, Silver mined for Coins only accounts for 20% of the purpose. Not all Silver is refined to Bullion and Coin quality.

https://www.silvercoins.com/uses-of-silver/

HeadSet says

I find it hard to believe that the government could not destroy Bitcoin if it felt the need.

They can tomorrow. Remember a plant, heck many plants.... I'll say it again plants are illegal in this country. If you think a traceable spreadsheet is safe, good luck. It could all end tomorrow and you'd be broke.

Cornering silver market would be somewhat more difficult than cornering gold market. Silver has a lot of industrial uses, so if price will go up, industry will find replacement and silver will keep flowing from industrial stacks to people's basements. Gold has relatively few industrial uses (ca.10%?), and if people keep buying it, it can not be drawn from another large pool. May be I am wrong but these are my considerations. The again I don't know why Hunt brothers chose silver and not gold. Perhaps volume in $$ is too high for gold.

richwicks says

Not exactly true. Rare coins (numismatics) can be worth significantly more than their melt value.

So when the dollar collapses and people are using coins to buy food, who's gonna care about your coin being "rare"? Or when silver is over $100/oz, who's gonna pay you more because it's "rare" silver?

NuttBoxer says

So when the dollar collapses and people are using coins to buy food, who's gonna care about your coin being "rare"? Or when silver is over $100/oz, who's gonna pay you more because it's "rare" silver?

Bullets buy food when the dollar collapses. Coins, fiat, spreadsheets, none of it matters. Bullets, water and food are it. Maybe a bow and arrow or large knife I guess.

The dollar won't collapse, just decline/stay low. Every other central bank in the world is employing zirp and extreme money printing. Relatively speaking the dollar will be ok for now, though inflation for goods, esp. local goods and services will keep its steady pace or even pick up a bit. No hyperinflation though.

Esp. for globally produced goods the cost of harvest/sourcing or manufacturing is still very low (low wages).

mell says

The dollar won't collapse, just decline/stay low. Every other central bank in the world is employing zirp and extreme money printing.

I've been wondering about this as well. The dollar is the worst currency, except when compared to all others...

mell says

The dollar won't collapse, just decline/stay low. Every other central bank in the world is employing zirp and extreme money printing. Relatively speaking the dollar will be ok for now, though inflation for goods, esp. local goods and services will keep its steady pace or even pick up a bit. No hyperinflation though.

This has basically caused global havoc. And the only they did was prop the dollar up. But we've watched assets inflate vs. all paper currencies. This is an experiment that has never been tried before on a global scale and it doesn't look like it is on a good path or will end very well.

NuttBoxer says

So when the dollar collapses and people are using coins to buy food, who's gonna care about your coin being "rare"?

In that situation, nobody.

NuttBoxer says

Or when silver is over $100/oz, who's gonna pay you more because it's "rare" silver?

Any coin shop.

I don't suggest buying numismatics. I'm saying that if you have 35 lbs of silver coins, you very well might have some valuable ones in there. I'd trade those out for more silver.

Rb6d says

Cornering silver market would be somewhat more difficult than cornering gold market. Silver has a lot of industrial uses, so if price will go up, industry will find replacement and silver will keep flowing from industrial stacks to people's basements. Gold has relatively few industrial uses (ca.10%?), and if people keep buying it, it can not be drawn from another large pool. May be I am wrong but these are my considerations. The again I don't know why Hunt brothers chose silver and not gold. Perhaps volume in $$ is too high for gold.

Silver is used in minute quantities. If the price goes up to $300, it won't change the cost of any products other than literal silverware.

richwicks says

Silver is used in minute quantities. If the price goes up to $300, it won't change the cost of any products other than literal silverware.

Silver has many industrial uses, accounting for more than half of annual demand worldwide over the last five years.

This means that economic growth can affect silver prices far more than it affects gold. Only 10-15% of annual gold demand worldwide comes from industrial use, the rest going to jewelry and investment.

Because of silver's physical strength, brilliance, malleability and ductility (it can be squashed or pulled into shape), people have also used silver in jewelry, tableware and fine art for thousands of years. Industrial applications use silver's conductivity (the highest of any element for electricity and heat) as well as its sensitivity to light and anti-bacterial qualities.

Today silver is invaluable to solder and brazing alloys, batteries, dentistry, glass coatings, LED chips, medicine, nuclear reactors, photography, photovoltaic (or solar) energy, RFID chips (for tracking parcels or shipments worldwide), semiconductors, touch screens, water purification, wood preservatives and many other industrial uses. Washington-based industry group the Silver Institute calls it "the indispensable metal".

https://www.bullionvault.com/silver-guide/silver-industrial-demand#

NuttBoxer says

richwicks says

Not exactly true. Rare coins (numismatics) can be worth significantly more than their melt value.

So when the dollar collapses and people are using coins to buy food, who's gonna care about your coin being "rare"? Or when silver is over $100/oz, who's gonna pay you more because it's "rare" silver?

No two situation are exactly the same, but during German or Russian occupations in WW1 and WW2 that my relatives lived through, gold weight of a coin mattered much more than if the coin was 16th century rare coin or just a common gold coin. Additionally, the purchasing power of gold and silver decreased quite a lot (while purchasing power of fiat currencies collapsed to something very close to 0). What became very expensive relatively speaking, was food, shelter, clothes, and fuel

Rb6d says

What became very expensive relatively speaking, was food, shelter, clothes, and fuel

Of course, but consider this - nearly everybody had gold or silver back then.

99% of the population doesn't have either today. We're in the Stupid Age.

richwicks says

NuttBoxer says

So when the dollar collapses and people are using coins to buy food, who's gonna care about your coin being "rare"?

In that situation, nobody.

NuttBoxer says

Or when silver is over $100/oz, who's gonna pay you more because it's "rare" silver?

Any coin shop.

I don't suggest buying numismatics. I'm saying that if you have 35 lbs of silver coins, you very well might have some valuable ones in there. I'd trade those out for more silver.

@Nutboxer

This is very good advice.

Ok, so the bullion banks let the price of silver go up about 10% and shorted as much as people would buy on the exchanges. They did this knowing that the margin requirements would be increased on the commodity exchanges. When the margin requirements changed, there were forced sales because of the higher cash requirements. The bullion banks then covered their new short positions at the lower prices caused by the forced sales.

Retail customers are looking at losses. I wonder if this will deter them from buying in the physical markets. The price in the physical markets is much higher than the paper markets. This tends to gravitate buyers to the paper markets, which are totally fraudulent. Who knows, maybe this time the shenanigans in the paper markets won't deter people from buying in the physical markets.

Now that the pump and dump with margin manipulation has played out, don't expect anymore press on the issue.

What part about rigged don't people get?