patrick.net

> Please discuss your views about building a
> house from scratch v. buying and remodeling.

It is always a big risk building in a new neighborhood since you don’t know how the neighborhood will end up.

If you want to build in an established neighborhood it can get expensive since you usually have to buy and tear down a decent home.

A couple things to remember from someone who has been involved with real estate for his whole life:

1. Building a new home (or apartment, or office building or shopping center) will end up costing more than you thought it would.

2. Building a new home (or apartment, or office building or shopping center) will end up taking longer than you thought it would.

Looks like Michigan took the lead!

There are so many of them already built and for sale, why bother building?

Somewhere down the line, I would like to buy a nice bit of land in the middle of nowhere and park a doublewide there for about ten years. Then I'd like to build something completely modern - all concrete and steel and 12' glass, with views to deciduous trees and mountains.

Must have interesting sky.

ROFLMAO..........

When I bought my first house for the astronomical sum of $7,500, I had to do the rehab myself because I didn't have the money to hire anyone. I had NO experience with a hammer or a nail. You should have seen me trying to put up crown molding. I never could get the angles right at the corners to I went to the building supply to find out why. The guy asked what kind of mitre box was I using......and I actually said "What's a mitre box?" You should have seen the look on his face.

Long story short, it took four months to get it livable and thank GOD for chaulking. I bought it by the case to plug and hide my crappy work.

I will NEVER do a rehab or buy another old house again for ANY price. It was a freakin' nightmare.

Greetings from flyover country-

There's a tear down up the street (standard Chicago lot). I've asked my wife a couple times at what price it's worth buying a lot and building a house or two/three flat. The response I get is that it's not in us to undertake such a project. I'm quite interested in this equation because in addition to the one offered as a tear down at 700k. There are two others in my block that are boarded up as the result of fires.

I suspect each of these will come available soon as tear downs as well. If the market weakens more and there are 3 tear downs to choose from it would be nice to know the numbers but in the end it's pointless if it's not in us to undertake the project. My thinking was gather the cost of teardown (about 20k) construction, permits, etc. then make some lowballs on these properties. My guess was that at around 400k it's worth buying these lots. They are zoned for single family or up to 3 units. I'm guessing cost of construction in the 300k range. If you build a 3 unit building, rent 2 units at $1,800 each and live in the third I think the numbers above would work. In my mind the two wild cards are the cost of construction and property taxes.

As a point of reference, last year it was commonly said a standard lot in this area is worth 1M. That is obviously not true anymore as the 700k teardown just sits.

One thing I had in mind particularly - which will no doubt be discounted as 'timing the market' - was whether or not there comes a moment in a housing bust when conditions become ideal to undertake building.

My tastes run to pure 'types', whether Jacques Gabriel or Richard Meier, so I find I must seriously consider building. There's little out there likely to be genuinely pleasing (for me). Far too much pastiche, to put it gently.

Actually, I was looking at a nice tract of 2.5 acre farmland out east of town (about 20-30 minutes from work). But I've been on a minimalism kick, complaining that I don't need a McMansion or 2500 sqft SFR in town, but I don't want to pay $1800 in HOA fees at a townhouse for "greenbelt maintenance".

Anyway, one of my colleagues forwarded me the site for the Katrina Cottages. Cute lil' buggers, and they would make a good guest house later! I kinda wondered if you could do up the interior super-nice, considering that they are small and otherwise inexpensive. Maybe like an old British library theme, or a stylish New York apartment theme.

Brand,

I joked with my wife that we should buy the teardown and put a Katrina cottage on the lot and see how long it takes for the neighbors to go balistic.

The Katrina cottages are very cute. They look like beach cottages - they look like nice versions of the cottages on marinpos.blogspot.com -- at 1/20th the price.

They are going to sell them at Lowes

Paul,

Why would the neighbors go ballistic? I'm not sure the cottages are suitable for Chicago, but they're really cute.

*unlurks*

OT: looks like Vancouver is starting to cool of...the bidding wars have stalled and houses are starting to sit rather than sell in 24 hours...will the bubble there soon pop? At $600K for a starter home...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061112.wvanhousing1112/BNStory/Business/home

Enjoy, and keep up the blogging we lurkers are paying attention.

Oh, and this was four or more threads ago but I was not in favour of banning Confused Renter. Yet.

*relurks*

"Just like Sears a century before. Reminds me of something about ‘la meme chose’.Just like Sears a century before. Reminds me of something about ‘la meme chose’."

Anyone here a fan of old National Geographics ads?

SFWoman,

Just a line or two about RPI. Some of the sharpest math theory undergrads I knew in college were particularly keen to be accepted at RPI in their various specialties. Most were in field and ring, and one doing Galois (sp?) Theory. I've kept the impression that the school is held in very high regard, but not generally well-known.

get's, hee hee - check the 'possessive case' post on the last thread...

I surrender already!

RPI is the next Ivy.

Lake Champlain is the 6th Great Lake.

Any other Upper State New York boosterism that you guys want me to agree to?

Astrid,

I think it's a cute cottage too. I guess I'm thinking of the person who bought the 7,000 sq. ft. house across the street for 3.5M last year. They would probably go crying to the alderman that it's out of code or something.

Paul

SFWoman,

See dryfly's claims re: RPI on the last thread. That was what I was disputing in the first place.

I never said RPI was a bad school; in fact I expressly said RPI was a good school in its field but was disputing its description as the "new ivy" and just below CalTech and MIT as an engineering school.

SFWoman,

I live near Northern Virginia and local boosters are constantly trying to paint it as the next Napa or Loire Valley...so sure, I'll say it, Upper State New York produces drinkable swill :)

live = lived

I live in MD right now, but with a VA license plate.

A couple months ago we went to MO wine country. It was very enjoyable and the wines were nice too. Of course it's not Napa but I think MO has it all over MI.

"none had their school logo tattooed on their foreheads"

Maybe that's next!

As a former east coaster, I can testify that wine country in upstate New York is quite beautiful. Especially in fall, when the leaves are turning. But if you're going to argue that the vino is as good as the scenery... ;)

dryfly,

I really have to say that MIT is not just another also-run. I am in awe of CalTech labs and CalTech people too, and I agree that the top people at other engineering schools could be near the top at MIT.

However, MIT is much bigger than CalTech and specializes in many more fields, as such, it's the Harvard of the Tech schools. It's rather absurd to deny its national and international reputation as the premier American tech school.

http://www.hermannmissouri.com/

SFWoman,

Thanks for tuning me into upper NY ice wine, it sounds quite intriguing. I've heard of ice wine from Germany, but not from NY. Perhaps I should have some with turducken and cranberry sauce.

I'd back up the assessment that beer is your weapon of choice. It cuts through the greasy/sugary nature of BBQ and can counter the spicy as well. You can shoot for either something light and acidic like an IPA, or something heavier like an amber ale or lager.

btw, SFWoman, I know you were joking about the NY quality wines. But you did wish for the outrageous NY boosterism, right? :) And being from PA (the real PA, not Palo Alto), I am geographically obligated to shoot down anything from the northern wastelands.

Except for foliage. I think that's on the exception list, along with Broadway and the Statue of Liberty.

Haven't yet ventured into the relm of turducken but we did make a beer can chicken the other night. It was very tasty!

SFWoman,

I ordered one online from this site:

http://www.cajungrocer.com/turducken-cajun-style-plain-p-341.html

I've never had turducken before, so I have no idea of what to expect. I did buy a meat thermometer in anticipation of its arrival, so hopefully it won't turn out too dreadfully.

Okay. Having spent so much effort on derailing this topic, I'll try to get it back on track.

I have the greatest respect for people who actually rehab derelict property back to liveability - there's a lot of risk and hard work involved.

actually, CR's spelling is usually pretty good, unfortunately i haven't noticed too much wrong with it -- unusual for a realtor :(
sometimes he hits t and g together by mistake, is all...

good advice, bap.

not sure fee structures are the same here. i was looking at buying an old shack on a large block that has already been approved for 2 new subdivided dwellings, and had all sorts of tricks lined up to keep costs down. e.g. occupy dwellings in turn to avoid cap gains tax, and a few other things specific to my situation. don't know if there are large infrastructure fees to pay on a new building tho... trying to become a cottage industry developer by doing 2 and 3 for 1 swaps... i'm only being community-sprited and trying to provide quality housing for others, like casey serin :cry:

Yeah, I agree with Bap33. Someone pointed out earlier (possibly on the prior thread) that they did a lot of rennovations themselves, but when they sold the house, their labor was at like $7/hour. The way I figure it, I could do some consulting or work on some patents and cover the costs of a real professional.

Just read a rebuttal to the Not So Big house. An architect showed that adding all the detail and custom craftsmanship actually costs more than you save by cutting down on square footage. I guess the only way to truly have a cheaper house is to buy something small and basic.

one thing i read claimed it costs twice as much in labour costs to renovate an existing structure as build a new one, per sq ft, mainly due to fiddliness. this was a house rebuilding firm ad, mind you.

a friend of mine (interior designer) was making a good living for a while buying apartments and fixing them up with the sweat of her own brow. but it becomes risky in a turning or declining market -- it was difficult to work out how much of the profit was 'real' and how much was the rising market in the end... plus transaction costs are appreciable, and paying either income tax or capital gains tax on any proceeds after sale...

Another friend has an interesting dilemma: whether to renovate or detonate... Owns a double-brick 'Federation' (1915) house on a small block of land in a desirable beach suburb purchased and paid for years ago. (Living at the beach was seen as undesirable when it was built.) It has 14' ceilings, small windows and tiny rooms and a hallway, a la the Victorian design problem. Kitchen is almost non-existent. A long extensive addition has been built at the back in the 1970s which is of good quality, but doesn't take advantage of beach views well. (Beach views and fresh air were seen as undesirable when it was built.)

Maintenance issues are now enormous: old part of house needs to be rewired, the Welsh slate roof is now getting 'nail cancer' as the original nails rust after 100 years and slate comes slipping down, and the patterned heritage ceilings have been covered up and are also sagging and holing. Apart from restoring the ceilings, she would need to take down all the slate, insulate the ceilings with batts, and sark the roof and renail it. She would like to tear up the carpet to expose the floorboards. Whole interior needs repainting. Ducted heating and a/c are difficult to retrofit. The Federation appearance is reasonably attractive, not necessarily in line with climate or taking full advantage of views. It's the only Fed place left on the street bar one other. She could build a 2nd storey extension out the rear on the existing extension and get sweeping views of beaches and a large master bedroom, ensuite and balcony and all kinds of things, but would cost $$$. Needs to extensively renovate the kitchen/dining space by switching the use of the spaces and replumbing and demolishing a brick walled pantry to do so. May have to lower ceiling in kitchen by 18" as it's too high, and make an attic, or a new storey.

Should she renovate it a bit at a time and continue to live in while doing so, with the option of building a 2nd storey at some time, or just get some architects plans done for a 2 storey neo-modern geometric design with glass etc, which would be self-consistent, brand new (wiring, plumbing, etc), attractive and less ongoing maintenance hassles, but having to move out and rent somewhere for the duration? When you add it up, new construction is probably the same cost as the renovations and repairs that are required. I wonder if you can erect something quickly with cladding products rather than bricklaying double walls. She is not overly attached to the existing structure.

Please help...

Sorry I'm late to the discussion (a good one), but do I tend to take the weekends off. Though I've never built from scratch and my personal "rehabbing" experience is limited mainly to light stuff (painting, caulking & simple plumbing), I can address the build vs. remodel issue for CA, because I heavily researched it 3 years ago.

By late 2003, I quickly realized that I could not afford a livable house in an o.k. neighborhood, either in LA County or the East Bay (the two primary locations for my employer). This was very early along in my bubble-awareness phase, long before I found my way to Patrick.net. I began researching alternatives to purchasing, including DIY straw-bale, cobb & cord wood. Btw, I recommend Mortgage Free! by Rob Roy to anyone interested in pursuing/researching this idea. Back in 2004, I even joined CASBA (CAlifornia Straw Building Association) and attended a few hands-on workshops. I even helped out on a SB house outside San Diego. Very instructive and fun experience.

IMO, this can be a good way to reduce housing costs provided that:

1. You build in an area that has low raw land costs. And don't forget to include the costs of permitting, impact fees, costs of hooking up utilities/sewer/water, etc. --can be VERY high!

2. You do most of the work yourself (see Bap33's comments) and have LOTS of free time and patience. Skills and prior experience with carpentry (or at least family & friends who have it) is also a very good thing.

#2 isn't usually that big of a barrier, provided you're determined and realistic in terms of preparing yourself for a BIG work and time commitment. You can usually pick up new skills OTJ or self educate as needed. Straw-bale is one of the easiest and most forgiving construction materials, btw.

#1 This is often the deal-breaker for a lot of would-be DIYers in places like CA, because most land within commutable areas is so expensive. Remember, this is primarily a LAND BUBBLE, not so much a materials & labor bubble. In fact, the exorbitant cost of land, plus the difficulty of finding any unbuilt land within commuting distance to work was the main deal-breaker for me.

I can vouch for astrid's observation of the hard work involved in restoration - at one remove.

My parents acquired a derelict 1803 federal three-bay in the Shenedoah near Staunton to keep them busy and interested in retirement. Well, it did that in spades but, since the object was to prevent early senility by way of boredom, I must say it was a success. Once locals realised my folks were restoring, not remodelling, the best craftsmanship in the area 'suddenly' became available.

Dad says the expense (~$235K twenty-five years ago) could as easily have resulted in a fine, new home, but then that beautiful old house would very likely have fallen entirely into ruin. I've also seen restorations of large Willis Ervin (1920s neoclassical) and Stanford White estates in Aiken which must have cost dearly, but the original quality of design and finish would be hard to duplicate at any price today - not that we've become stupid in the interim, it's just that few architects today work comfortably in the idiom.

But I'm not considering anything on so grand a scale. Like most of us here, I'd like to own a house, not become enslaved by one. The problem remains that developers have been preoccupied with trends for decades - perhaps always - and that's more or less forcing me to look into new construction.

Shenedoah? Shenandoah. Literacy, anyone?

cabbage's