patrick.net

Bd6r says

Obama did not want to leave, Trump tried but could not, now Biden did it finally.

This is completely disingenuous. Trump was prevented doing so by Congressional constraints.

Good article from a year ago on how Trump was blocked from removing troops (I posted in another thread).
https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2020/07/unconventional-tactic-becomes-congresss-go-weapon-against-troop-withdrawal/166880/

In any case, he drew down from 15k to 2k - even Biden pointed that out in his speech. Biden likes to say that "I opposed Obama's surge". If true, it just means he was ineffective. Biden likes to play it both ways - but there is no doubt that the Obama/Biden reign was growing the war until Trump won in 2016.

I think this whole thing was a political mess. We should have been out of there in 2018-9 but Congress DEMs didn't want Trump to get the political "win" and instead delayed his withdrawal with the help of the REPs as well (everyone likes MIL spending). Perhaps in hind sight Congress actually knew a withdrawal would be mess. Had they known it would be a disaster, they might have let Trump do it! :)

Either way, we are out. And that is all anyone will, in the end, remember. No one will care that Biden's team failed in successfully exiting the country and keeping our allies out of harms way. The magnitude of the incompetence is astonishing. No one seemed to expect that it could fall in < 24hrs.

krc says

The magnitude of the incompetence is astonishing. No one seemed to expect that it could fall in < 24hrs.

"OMG, Trump didn't trust the intelligence communitay! How dared he!"

I think Biden was right to leave… but I think he should have appropriately set the American public up expectation wise. He should have given a worse case scenario… saying this exit could very well be a shit show and the Taliban could overrun Kabul in a matter of days if the Afghan men we trained surrender, join the Taliban or run like babies…. Basically he should have put the blame on the Afghans we gave trillions to… and if it collapsed he could then point the finger and say I told you so.

When my boss says all hands on deck, we’re gonna have to work weekends, it’s gonna be busy as hell and prepares me for the worst and it ends up better… I feel better. It’s management 101!

HunterTits says

Optics of his own making, insofar he's aware of what he even says.

"This will not be like Saigon with the helicopters evacuating the Embassy from the rooftop!" (paraphrasing)

Optics would only be around 50% as bad as they are are if he didn't say that.

Agree. 50% likely was what he previously said. The other 50% of the problem is this makes the US look soooooooo weak. Can't even properly get out of goat fucker territory and we leave tons of war weapons and equipment. It's embarrassing. 20 years and in 15 days it's overturned and it looks like we're running for the hills. Out leader doesn't talk about it for days.

BoomAndBustCycle says

When my boss says all hands on deck, we’re gonna have to work weekends, it’s gonna be busy as hell and prepares me for the worst and it ends up better… I feel better. It’s management 101!

We were right to leave, but this mindset fails most of the time. 80/20 rule. 20% will do the work while the other 80% fuck off. You piss off the productive people by managing this way. Cause burn out and ultimately more time, money and employees leaving.

Witnessing it right now with my neighbor who makes about $170k/yr. He's literally the only one capable of coding what needs to be coded. The boss pushes harder and harder. Fellow employees work weekends and he has to fix all their mistakes. He might actually quit this week or next week because of this exact mindset. Decade at this company. Management cannot and should not push people in things they don't understand. They should have been better prepared or hired better instead of freaking out and making people work weekends in most white collar jobs. You're a failure if you have to do what you say as a manager.

Bd6r says

The US war on Afghanistan was not lost yesterday in Kabul. It was lost the moment it shifted from a limited mission to apprehend those who planned the attack on 9/11 to an exercise in regime change and nation-building.

You can’t lose a war that you never intended to win. It was not a war it was a corrupt government exercise designed to enrich the wealthy at the expense of the weak and powerless working men and women of the world.

I think we are probably being misled by the "withdrawal". There is withdrawal in a sense but we are probably not out of the game. I can't believe that we would close shop one day and leave after investing 1t into this sheethole. I think it is more to than what we are seeing. I trust American greed.

gabbar says

I think it is more to than what we are seeing. I trust American greed.

I think the incompetence of the American elite is on full display here.

Eric Holder says

Bd6r says

Ultimately - GW Bush

Blaming GW Bush for a botched withdrawal in 2021 is too easy of an exit for the fuckers currently in power. They need to do their jobs right with the cards they were dealt when they came to power, or stay the fuck out of it if they can't.

Agreed. If you can't safely close shop you have failed to the greatest extent, there Is no praise whatsoever in this for bidet. Again, Trump would have withdrawn with a stern warning of impending poundings on any reports of gross human rights violations. There's a reason Trump got so much done, because he doesn't just draw a fucking line in the sand, he fucking means it. Zero fucks given

krc says

We should have been out of there in 2018-9

we should have not been there in first place, thus saving trillions of $$$ and many lives.
krc says

our allies

Most of them were allies just for the moment they were paid.
HunterTits says

Optics of his own making, insofar he's aware of what he even says.

Incompetence of Bidet cabinet was of intergalactic nature, both in the way how they withdrew troops, and in how they spun what happened.

Does not change tho that he finally got us out.

WookieMan says

we leave tons of war weapons and equipment.

I wonder if this is on purpose, like it was done for Al Qaeda in Syria, generously armed by US taxpayers. On other hand, incompetence of Bidet cabinet makes that somewhat less likely.

Bd6r says

Does not change tho that he finally got us out.

Dollars to donuts the US is just going to start another goddamned useless war. They might not even bother to tell us where - but my bet is Somalia and/or Iran. These motherfuckers never cease spreading misery and chaos.

I don't think that "he" got us out at all.

I think the Taliban got us out.

This is Liz Cheney's fault, she blocked Trump from pulling out sensibly.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/08/17/warren-davidson-liz-cheney-played-key-role-in-afghanistan-debacle/

Remember Trump, china and the tarrifs? The lamestream media and pundit hacks, "oh no he can't just impose tarrifs" "oh no he won't" "oh no anything above a couple percent would be oranges baaad!" .... and he just fucking did. Similarly he would have clocked the living daylights out of anyone abusing and breaking a peace treaty he brokered.

mell says

Remember Trump, china and the tarrifs? The lamestream media and pundit hacks, "oh no he can't just impose tarrifs" "oh no he won't" "oh no anything above a couple percent would be oranges baaad!" .... and he just fucking did. Similarly he would have clocked the living daylights out of anyone abusing and breaking a peace treaty he brokered.

He was "unpredictable".

richwicks says

Dollars to donuts the US is just going to start another goddamned useless war. They might not even bother to tell us where - but my bet is Somalia and/or Iran. These motherfuckers never cease spreading misery and chaos.

One reason I suspect all the terrorist attacks on random unarmed civilians are really organized by the FBI/CIA/NSA is that they never attack the well-known specific people in the US who are responsible for this fuckery, like the weapons lobbyists for example.

Any rational terrorist could easily look up the names, addresses, and relatives of those people and then come in through our wide open border to the south.

Are terrorists so stupid that they always alienate the majority and let the real criminals live in peace? It doesn't add up.

Eric Holder says

He was "unpredictable".

Yep and unconventional. And determined. And freedom loving for the US and its citizens. Good qualities for a leader.

WineHorror1 says

This event is a non story imo except for the wasted lives and $$.

Money is never wasted. It is always transferred. In this case, from tax payers like you to the weapons industry and politicians.

Catturd ™
@catturd2
Aug 16
Trump would’ve taken questions from a hostile press for an hour.
9:01 PM · Aug 16, 2021

This is true. Trump had no fear of the press.

Biden is pissing his Depends™ in fear of actual questions which would show just how senile and corrupt he really is.

WookieMan says

We were right to leave, but this mindset fails most of the time. 80/20 rule. 20% will do the work while the other 80% fuck off. You piss off the productive people by managing this way. Cause burn out and ultimately more time, money and employees leaving.

I was speaking more from the standpoint of “fair warning”… not springing weekend work on employees on Friday before. But saying … 2 weeks out we are going to be busy.. be prepared to work weekends. Biden didn’t really prepare Americans for the shitshow we saw on the news. That’s my complaint, that’s my bad management critique.

Patrick says

Are terrorists so stupid that they always alienate the majority and let the real criminals live in peace? It doesn't add up.

Have to admit… that’s why I had some respect for the January 6th capital attack. Atleast they went after the source of the problem… the people they were angry with and didn’t take it out on civilians.

But then again, if they did that often we would become corrupt like Mexico where people kill politicians that aren’t in bed with the cartel quickly and decisively. There’s not a good answer either. Ruthless and most violent people would take over our democracy.

BoomAndBustCycle says

But then again, if they did that often we would become corrupt like Mexico where people kill politicians that aren’t in bed with the cartel quickly and decisively. There’s not a good answer either. Ruthless and most violent people would take over our democracy.

I'm not talking about officials.

I'm talking about the people who are really running the wars in the Mideast: billionaires, lobbyists, Wall Street bankers, Blackrock, Harvard professors

The Al Queda types would have gone after them if they really wanted revenge. But instead it's random schlubs on the street getting killed by the terrorists, so I strongly suspect that all these terrorist attacks are arranged by domestic agencies like the FBI.

il Donaldo Trumpo
@ilSharko
Aug 16
MI KAYLEIGH IS ON FUEGO!!!🔥🔥🔥

https://twitter.com/ilSharko/status/1427330315991855108#m

Trump was moving troops out, Biden I dont think he could have done anything different. But fuck it, Afganistan isn't my worry with our own shithead government fucking us with covid mandates and lockdowns and all that faggot shit.

I agree with you @FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut

Our most important problems right now are:

1. not getting stabbed with the jab
2. not being threatened with job loss by the Biden administration's DOJ for refusing to submit to the jab (well, not my problem anymore, but for many millions, it's HUGE)
3. lockdowns that just cause suffering for no scientific reason

We were in Afghanistan simply to get Bin Laden.

We were in Iraq simply to end Saddam due to his "WMDs".

We ended up staying in both long beyond.

The old "Problem-Reaction-Solution". Just find any reason to get in there, then stay a hella long time with the "Irresponsible to leave chaotic/broken" excuse.

Exit Strategy before Entering is the counter.

Next time, we shouldn't spend all the time countering the excuses to intervene, but demanding a specific quantitative exit strategy as part of Deal. IE Once Big Bad Faboozle/WMD is nullfied, we leave. If Big Bad Faboozle/WMD not found in a year of searching, we leave. We leave no matter what, we leave whether or not anything is broken, and whether or not claims he/it is right around the corner.

However, one thing I've learned is the Heart/Interpretation is MORE important than the words. Look at the Constitution since FDR. Constitution II must specify Original Intent as the SOLE legal interpretive philosophy. Also, no 3rd "Judicial" Branch of Government, an invitation to Tyranny - appointed for life schmucks, whose number is fungible, and threats of changing that number, can result in lifetime bureaucrats ruling in a way that keeps the President/Congress happy.

MisdemeanorRebellionNoCoupForYou says

we shouldn't spend all the time countering the excuses to intervene, but demanding a quantitative exit strategy

I agree, but the demands of the people mean less than nothing to the elite.

Democracy means nothing to them. We voted against their wishes, so they cancelled Democracy.

Our lives mean nothing to them. Mandatory injections of God knows what for everyone.

The Founders were entirely right, there's only two evolutions from the current environment:

1. We become the Establishment somehow - unlikely as the first thing the PoMo Establishment did was institute Purity Tests after decades of claiming "Let 1000 flowers bloom" and "Don't legislate morality" and "We need diverse voices (ie people who agree with us and not tradition)"

2. We know what this one is.

il Donaldo Trumpo
@ilSharko
Aug 16
The ruling class decided to steal an election so they could give power to a lying pedophile with dementia. What could go wrong?

https://twitter.com/ilSharko/status/1427294253164728324#m

Agree with leaving, disagree with not taking our hardware with us.

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

Trump was moving troops out, Biden I dont think he could have done anything different.

Oh, he could. First of all, winter is the time when moving around the country and fighting there is severely complicated by weather, so starting withdrawing in late fall and finishing by early spring while your adversary is mostly dormant and snow-bound, makes perfect sense. Doing the same over summer - stupid. Guess who wanted to do it by March and who wanted to do it by September because of some "symbolism".

There are other things which could be done differently too.

We're out of Afghanistan because Big Pharma shifted from Opiates to Vaccines.

Huh, that could be it.

But I was under the impression that most opiates these days were synthetic, not from poppies at all anymore.

Staying in Afghanistan beyond the dubious "Capture Bin Laden" mission was the shit show. It positively amazes me how many Republicans I've known since before the war started, who were all gung-ho to go, and all gung-ho to stay, are now critical of Biden and blaming him for the entire debacle.

All the way from the beginning "The Left" (to lump together everyone opposed to the war, which Republicans were nearly unanimously for) critics have been making the same critiques I'm hearing right wingers state sanctimoniously. I'm also pretty tired of the "DeMoCrAtS VoTeD FoR tHe WaR ToO!!!!!!" We KNEW the Yellowcake Uranium and WMD claims were bullshit, and we KNEW that Afghanistan couldn't be united into a country it never was before. We KNEW it drove the Soviets to bankruptcy and withdrawal, and we KNEW the same would happen to America. BUT... We put aside our doubts and partisanship, and put our trust in the President saying war was necessary to protect America. Of course, it WAS bullshit, but did Republicans ever acknowledge this about the war THEY hawked for? No, they've been trying to recon the situation into making the Democrats and entire American left share the blame and guilt that Republicans won't accept for their beliefs and behavior.

As of the 2012 election, Biden himself was advocating to hand the country back to the troops we trained, while the official Republican position was to ignore the sunk cost fallacy, jump into the hole they dug, and dig deeper at American taxpayer/American soldier expense. This songified version of the VP debate is a fun watch in its own right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksXRFRCUatc

Kind of Reminds me when the Democrats whinged that Middle Eastern nationals would be profiled and worked with Bush to prevent it. Now the Dem WH-Congress actively profiles, from the Military to FBI they control, American Born White Males with gusto. After decades of apologizing for radical groups from MOVE to the Weathermen to Antifa and BLM, the Democrats now cast a peaceful protest on 1/6 as the worst terror attack on US soil since the Civil War. Forgetting all about BLM-enabler Clinton-released Susan Rosenberg's BOMBING of the Senate in the 80s.

The two signs the Media is complete Pravda:
1. Not even a token voice of opposition (UNLIKE the Iraq War where Meathead, Garofalo, and others were present on almost every broadcast before, during, and after the invasion)
2. No comparing events at all (ie 84 Senate Bombing to 1/6, or the BLM-Antifa nightly "Mostly Peaceful" firebombing of Churches, Stores, then police stations and Federal Courthouses to Old Guys and Gals walking around the Capitol).

Oh, and a big third:
"Political Speech is the MOST Protected Speech" has become "Eliminate Misleading* Narratives"

* Misleading = Narratives that Lead Away from MY preferred conclusions.

Automan Empire says

No, they've been trying to recon the situation into making the Democrats and entire American left share the blame and guilt that Republicans won't accept for their beliefs and behavior.

What.

Is this what the rank and file Joe Blow Republican is saying, or is this what the NEWS media is saying? I find the rank and file is very often strawmanned.

I would't have considered myself a "republican" much less a "conservative" under George W. Bush's reign of terror, but I didn't consider myself a "leftist" or a "democrat" under Obama's new reign of terror. Those two are hands down the worst presidents in my lifetime. Far worse than Nixon of Jimmy Carter. Worse than Clinton. Biden doesn't seem any different or better than Bush or Obama though, but he's got 3 1/2 years to go.

gabbar says

I think we are probably being misled by the "withdrawal".

This is probably factual. I heard yesterday that my 2nd cousin was deployed to the region yesterday. Something is cooking.

Wait until Kabul is filled with Taliban!

AND FUCKING NUKE IT!

BoomAndBustCycle says

the January 6th capital attack.

What attack?

The "Insurrectionists" were ushered in.

BoomAndBustCycle says

WookieMan says

We were right to leave, but this mindset fails most of the time. 80/20 rule. 20% will do the work while the other 80% fuck off. You piss off the productive people by managing this way. Cause burn out and ultimately more time, money and employees leaving.

I was speaking more from the standpoint of “fair warning”… not springing weekend work on employees on Friday before. But saying … 2 weeks out we are going to be busy.. be prepared to work weekends. Biden didn’t really prepare Americans for the shitshow we saw on the news. That’s my complaint, that’s my bad management critique.

Failure of leadership either way. Not being prepped two days or weeks before something you know is coming is the definition of failure. You’re already behind at either point. You need contingency plans a month out. Be prepared to hire more people. Use a vendor that can get what you need.

Business is not complicated. When I go to a job I’ve got 6 batteries and 5 SD cards for 30-40 minutes of flight time. I could go non-stop with that gear for 12-18 hours no problem.

You prepare. You don’t work weekends or extra hours if you’re intelligent. I’d get a new job in you have managers that behave that way. They’re idiots. Biden is an idiot as shown. Most people agree.