patrick.net

Automan Empire says

SunnyvaleCA says

In the legal system whataboutism goes by another name: precedence

You're really reaching here. If you want to run with equivocating your casual off the cuff whataboutism with the legal concept of precedence, then let's see you make a good faith effort to approach the standards for argumentation and evidence that the legal system demands, instead of dropping it as unsupported non-sequiturs in discussions of different topics, as if it settles the matter and ends the proceedings like a dramatic Perry Mason script.

You didn't say anything in that response.

The question is, why are BLM and Antifa allowed to break into Federal buildings and burn, and loot, and murder - and that's fine and unprosecuted, but when Ashli Babbitt climbs through a broken window in the capital, while she's unarmed, she is shot and killed - that's perfectly reasonable and acceptable?

There's a dual standard, because our government is openly criminal now. You know it, and if you think it won't turn against you, you're naive. If BLM marched on Washington DC NOW they'd be arrested, beaten, and sent to jail in 20 minutes.

There is no rule of law. BLM and Antifa disappeared because the "true believers" are 1) not being funded now and 2) are being fucking arrested and CHARGED.

They were useful idiots. They've been violating the law the entire time, but before, it was fine to break the law - provided our propaganda could claim they were rioting over Trump. I've seen this done over and over and over again in nations our intelligence agencies have overthrown. They are no longer useful, FOR NOW.

I'm warning you that you're helping to overthrow a system, and you might think this is going well for you now, but the real system that is being installed isn't going to be one you like, and since you colluded to overthrow a system, you're a threat to the actual system that might be imposed if you are successful in your own mind. They'll just fucking kill you. I won't - I'm trying to warn you.

Automan Empire says

Imagine taking an oath to uphold the Constitution, and ending up gunned down forcing your way into a secure Federal property, by someone who took the same oath, only seriously?

Imagine scores of IEDs thrown at Federal, State, and City Government property for weeks on end, aside from the total arson and looting of entire city blocks, all caught on tape, just to have DAs drop the cases entirely - then demanding that somebody who pooped on a politician's desk stay in solitary confinement for a year before trial.

Left wing radicals are far worse than the "Old 50s Patriarchs" they replaced. The Old Patriarchs slapped the Panthers on the wrist for marching through the Capitol Building armed to the teeth with carbines. The Left-Corporatists have a whistleblower (Assange) in solitary for years, and extremely minor misdemeanor (at best) offenders in the same conditions for months awaiting trial for what at best would be a $200 fine, if not released with a warning considering the clean criminal record.

Wheeler is a worse tyrant than Daley ever was.

richwicks says

You didn't say anything in that response.

I'm literally saying you're not saying anything with the whataboutism you bring to the discussion, and to hold it to the standards of the legal process you invoked to fix your problem. Instead, you're doubling down sperging on about BLM and Antifa.

richwicks says

The question is, why are BLM and Antifa allowed to break into Federal buildings and burn, and loot, and murder - and that's fine and unprosecuted

I already said I'm surprised the riots were allowed the way they were, and that the rioters should have met with swift, certain, and severe to the point of potentially deadly pushback for their lawless and destructive acts

richwicks says

but when Ashli Babbitt climbs through a broken window in the capital, while she's unarmed,

Behold the right wing version of the "He was a good boy, on his way to bible study" formula. Trump fans have a huge blind spot around the ethics of Jan. 6.

richwicks says

I'm warning you that you're helping to overthrow a system, and you might think this is going well for you now

Once again, no idea WTF you're talking about. You're addressing a weird strawman of what you think I believe and support here. Has nothing to do with what I've typed in the thread.

Automan Empire says

I'm literally saying you're not saying anything with the whataboutism you bring to the discussion, and to hold it to the standards of the legal process you invoked to fix your problem. Instead, you're doubling down sperging on about BLM and Antifa.

You are obviously an intelligent person. Does somebody pay you to post? Or do you really believe what you say?

Automan Empire says

I already said I'm surprised the riots were allowed the way they were, and that the rioters should have met with swift, certain, and severe to the point of potentially deadly pushback for their lawless and destructive acts

Agreed! Shoot the looters!

They'll never loot again.

Automan Empire says

Behold the right wing version of the "He was a good boy, on his way to bible study" formula. Trump fans have a huge blind spot around the ethics of Jan. 6.

Please explain?

And you never did tell us why you voted against Trump.

@Automan Empire

Not expecting any cogent answers

Automan Empire says

richwicks says

I'm warning you that you're helping to overthrow a system, and you might think this is going well for you now

Once again, no idea WTF you're talking about. You're addressing a weird strawman of what you think I believe and support here. Has nothing to do with what I've typed in the thread.

Yes, it does.

Automan Empire says

I'm literally saying you're not saying anything with the whataboutism you bring to the discussion

Oh my god. People that complain about "whataboutism" are so annoying.

What exactly is "whataboutism"? It's not defined. Such a stupid objection.

I have pointed out, there is OBVIOUSLY a double standard with regard to law enforcement. What this means, is that the judicial system isn't equitable, it isn't fair, it's not blind. What this means, is there IS no justice system.

That's where we're at now.

Automan Empire says

richwicks says

The question is, why are BLM and Antifa allowed to break into Federal buildings and burn, and loot, and murder - and that's fine and unprosecuted

I already said I'm surprised the riots were allowed the way they were, and that the rioters should have met with swift, certain, and severe to the point of potentially deadly pushback for their lawless and destructive acts

But they weren't, were they?

The reason this is, is that our government is nothing but a criminal syndicate now.

The reason 500 people have been put in prison for January 6th, is now our government are terrorists on top of being a criminal syndicate. They are stating, "if you oppose our corruption we will fuck you" and they are doing this in no uncertain terms.

The reason they wailed and moaned that Trump got elected, isn't because he was mentally incompetent, it isn't because he was "a Putin Puppet", it's not because he was "crazy", it wasn't because he was "the next Hitler". It's because he wasn't part of the criminal syndicate.

Joe Biden is. Hillary Clinton is, Mitt Romney is, Barack Obama is, John McCain was, George W. Bush was, John Kerry is, Al Gore is. In short, anybody that is vetted by our two "parties" are career criminals. They will never represent Americans, they don't care about Americans, they don't care about the country, they don't care about the health of this nation. They are just fucking thugs.

Congratulations, we're "back to normal" with Biden as the current meat puppet. The MIC runs the nation.

Antifa and BLM are no longer activated to intimidate the nation and people. They have beaten to population into compliance. Back to normal.

And if you think we're in a "pandemic", we aren't. This is punishment for people all over the Western world getting fucking fed up with criminals running the Western nations. We will still be in a lockdown a year from now, in 2022, there are going to have mail in ballots again. We'll get another bunch of fucks that have absolutely no intention of representing your interests, my interests, or any American citizen's interests (except maybe 0.1% of them) again because they will just be installed, AGAIN.

You can't verify the vote, because this is a dictatorship. It's an oligarchical dictatorship, rules are ignored and changed on the fly to advantage that dictatorship.

Automan Empire says

richwicks says

I'm warning you that you're helping to overthrow a system, and you might think this is going well for you now

Once again, no idea WTF you're talking abouAutoman Empire says

richwicks says

I'm warning you that you're helping to overthrow a system, and you might think this is going well for you now

Once again, no idea WTF you're talking about. You're addressing a weird strawman of what you think I believe and support here. Has nothing to do with what I've typed in the thread.

t. You're addressing a weird strawman of what you think I believe and support here. Has nothing to do with what I've typed in the thread.

I just don't believe you are as naive as you make yourself appear to be.

Do you, seriously, not realize why BLM and Antifa weren't prosecuted, and the people that showed up at a protest over a president that wasn't elected, got the book thrown at them?

I don't believe you're this naive. I don't believe anybody can be this naive, other than perhaps a child.

The message is excessively clear - "do NOT resist. Your vote means nothing. We will destroy you if you resist. Comply." This is why there are 500 political prisoners arrested for just showing up on January 6th. This is why Ashli Babbitt is dead. This is why the murderer won't be held accountable. If you want to prevent your kids and grandkids from being slaves, the only way you can do this, is through revolution and bloodshed. Voting isn't going to change anything.

Look, all the talk about "shoot on sight whoever enters a Fed building w/o permission" is sexy and all that, but in reality there must be valid threat to the officer or people whom he protects in order to use deadly force. The need to escalate to the deadly force also might arise when an attempt to arrest the individual deteriorates to the point officers life becomes endangered. Antifa/BLM operatives simply entering a federal building doesn't check all necessary boxes, so no beltfed porn there. Ashli's case doesn't check them either.(Antifa/BLM operatives throwing Molotov cocktails inside a federal building - more or less does).

Lt. Michael Byrd, shoots and kills Ashli.. an Air Force Vet... and he was doing his job...
Im not happy about it... not happy at all... MSNBC needs to be unplugged. Im tired of Lester Holt.
Byrd killed an unarmed vet... didnt need to use deadly force... and now he is free to walk the streets of D.C.
.. I need to take a fricking walk...
Ashli's husband on Tucker Carlson... I'd be cussing all the way thru that interview..
the Justice Department is the Jihad Department... and I stand with trump to say she was murdered.

richwicks says

I just don't believe you are as naive as you make yourself appear to be.

Yup.

Eric Holder says

Look, all the talk about "shoot on sight whoever enters a Fed building w/o permission" is sexy and all that, but in reality there must be valid threat to the officer or people whom he protects in order to use deadly force. The need to escalate to the deadly force also might arise when an attempt to arrest the individual deteriorates to the point officers life becomes endangered. Antifa/BLM operatives simply entering a federal building doesn't check all necessary boxes,

Exactly. That's why I called what Sunnyvale wrote "casual Whataboutism" and implored him to bring legal standards and precedent to the discussion instead of hypocritical and BS false equivocations.

Automan Empire says

let's see you make a good faith effort to approach the standards for argumentation and evidence that the legal system demands

Haven't seen a good faith effort yet in this thread.

Y'all have a HUGE ideological blind spot here. The mob was breaching the last barrier between themselves and the evacuating congressmen the police and USSS are sworn to protect. The officer warns her to stop or he will shoot her. THERE IS VIDEO AND AUDIO FROM MULTIPLE ANGLES OF THE SHOOTING. The way Trump fans reduce this to "Peacefully protesting" is literally the same thing as when Trump fans mock dead criminals' families for saying "He was a good boy went to bible study etc." I don't know how you can watch the video and listen to the audio, then in good faith claim the officer shot her in cold blood with no justification.

Automan Empire says

Eric Holder says

Look, all the talk about "shoot on sight whoever enters a Fed building w/o permission" is sexy and all that, but in reality there must be valid threat to the officer or people whom he protects in order to use deadly force. The need to escalate to the deadly force also might arise when an attempt to arrest the individual deteriorates to the point officers life becomes endangered. Antifa/BLM operatives simply entering a federal building doesn't check all necessary boxes,

Exactly. That's why I called what Sunnyvale wrote "casual Whataboutism" and implored him to bring legal standards and precedent to the discussion instead of hypocritical and BS false equivocations.

How is it "whataboutism"? More like recollection of a precedent. Antifa should've been arrested for breaking and entering a federal building. Ashli should've been arrested for breaking and entering. Instead nothing has happened to the former and the latter was fired upon w/o even attempt to arrest her.

Remember: accidental killing of Oskar Grant who was actively resisting an attempt to arrest him was ruled illegal. But killing a person w/o even trying to arrest her is huhky-dory? How?

Then there is that argument wrt "lives in danger". The lives of persons under protection of that officer were not in danger from a 100lbs unarmed woman because the 200lbs 6'2" officer in body armor was standing between her and them. And the life of the officer wasn't in danger either because how exactly an unarmed 100lbs woman is a danger to a football-player-sized dude, trained in hand-to-hand combat and wearing a bulletproof west? Even if he was alone against her, which he wasn't.

This shit won't fly in front of a jury and we both know it.

Eric Holder says

How is it "whataboutism"? More like recollection of a precedent.

There are places on the internet where I participate in good faith discussion of topics like this. The way it works is, you list out the elements used to determine if an officer involved shooting was justified, then you go point by point with the facts of the case at hand and see if each applies, using published and well known standards.

Nobody in this thread has done anything approaching this. People are operating in their emotions, not bringing objectivity to the table. As such, we haven't been able to reach a meeting of minds on the facts of the case and the law.

Eric Holder says

Then there is that argument wrt "lives in danger".

The Capitol police and especially the USSS are NOT like regular cops. They are sworn to protect congressmen, President etc, they do NOT fuck around with warning shots or disabling shots, in fact they will literally fight to the death to fulfill their mission. The woman was the first to climb through the broken window the mob she was with broke. When she got shot, luckily the spell was broken and the Trump fans realized the police and USSS were NOT "secretly" on theirs or Trump's side, and they backed down and therefore lived.

Now, let's see if you can name the element of justification for use of deadly force that existed in Ashley Babbitt's case but did NOT exist in most if not all of the "BLM attacks on buildings." If you can't do that, it's proof you're not arguing in good faith.

Automan Empire says

Eric Holder says

Then there is that argument wrt "lives in danger".

The Capitol police and especially the USSS are NOT like regular cops. They are sworn to protect congressmen, President etc, they do NOT fuck around with warning shots or disabling shots, in fact they will literally fight to the death to fulfill their mission.

Are you sure? So they have permission to simply drop anyone just for being present in a federal building w/o even attempting to arrest them? I seriously doubt this is true.

Eric Holder says

Automan Empire says

Eric Holder says

Then there is that argument wrt "lives in danger".

The Capitol police and especially the USSS are NOT like regular cops. They are sworn to protect congressmen, President etc, they do NOT fuck around with warning shots or disabling shots, in fact they will literally fight to the death to fulfill their mission.

Are you sure? So they have permission to simply drop anyone just for being present in a federal building w/o even attempting to arrest them? I seriously doubt this is true.

I get where you're coming from, but just look. He's getting off, cleared of any wrongdoing, no punishment or anything. If that isn't explicit approval from the government for what he did, I don't know what to tell you.

Now if we're asking if that's right or wrong...

Edit: I wanted to point out that the officer has glaring issues with his training. No one that has proper awareness during stressful situations like that would make the decision to use fatal force. Fucking amateur.

DhammaStep says

I get where you're coming from, but just look. He's getting off, cleared of any wrongdoing, no punishment or anything. If that isn't explicit approval from the government for what he did, I don't know what to tell you.

So did Chauvin. At first. So did Mehserle. At first. It's not over until it's over. And it's not over.

Eric Holder says

Automan Empire says

Eric Holder says

Then there is that argument wrt "lives in danger".

The Capitol police and especially the USSS are NOT like regular cops. They are sworn to protect congressmen, President etc, they do NOT fuck around with warning shots or disabling shots, in fact they will literally fight to the death to fulfill their mission.

Are you sure? So they have permission to simply drop anyone just for being present in a federal building w/o even attempting to arrest them? I seriously doubt this is true.

lol sure thing - the "grand capitol police doesn't fuck around", because they were "overwhelmed" by grandmas and shamans in viking and animal skin costumes. But shooting unarmed 5'2" womyn is so not fucking around tough! This is such bullshit, that jive ass ((c) TPB) should go to jail for life for his cowardly actions. Maybe give him parole if he vows to better his sanctimonious bullshit spewing out of his orifices or does a volunteer tour in Afghanistan. Fucker

DhammaStep says

I wanted to point out that the officer has glaring issues with his training.

Do you know how many years the officer was in that position?

Eric Holder says

permission to simply drop anyone just for being present in a federal building

"Just for being present in a Federal building?" Really?

OK, I see you're not arguing rationally or in good faith here. Peace out.

Just for being present after being actively let in.

We all saw the videos of the police moving barriers and letting the crowd into the Capitol.

Automan Empire says

Eric Holder says

permission to simply drop anyone just for being present in a federal building

"Just for being present in a Federal building?" Really?

OK, I see you're not arguing rationally or in good faith here. Peace out.

I accept your intellectual surrender.

PS. Yes, legally she did nothing except being present in the federal building w/o permission. Call it trespassing if you will. But that's it. There is nothing else: no weapons, no physical contact with LEOs or their masters, nothing.

Automan Empire says

DhammaStep says

I wanted to point out that the officer has glaring issues with his training.

Do you know how many years the officer was in that position?

What is the relevance of that question? Someone can fail miserably at their job on the first day or 30 years in. Being poorly trained and lacking discipline is not something that should be handwaved away, especially when OUR TAXES PAY FOR THEM. We technically don't even know who the officer is.

Automan Empire says

There are places on the internet where I participate in good faith discussion of topics like this.

How much do you get paid?

By the post or by the hour?

Just asking because you come off as an intelligent person but often act disingenuously.

Automan Empire says

Do you know how many years the officer was in that position?

Too many. Should've been fired for leaving loaded duty weapon in a public restroom.

DhammaStep says

What is the relevance of that question? Someone can fail miserably at their job on the first day or 30 years in. Being poorly trained and lacking discipline is not something that should be handwaved away, especially when OUR TAXES PAY FOR THEM. We technically don't even know who the officer is.

Chauvin was trained in the knee to neck restraint.

This will all end with "Liberty and Justice for all", Or we will continue down this rapid slide to tyranny and Faucism.

"Your papers please."

Eric Holder says

Automan Empire says

Do you know how many years the officer was in that position?

Too many. Should've been fired for leaving loaded duty weapon in a public restroom.

Yep.

Onvacation says

Chauvin was trained in the knee to neck restraint.

The expression on Chauvin's face when the verdict was read remind me of the look on JFK's assassin when he claimed to be a "patsy".

mell says

Eric Holder says

Automan Empire says

Do you know how many years the officer was in that position?

Too many. Should've been fired for leaving loaded duty weapon in a public restroom.

Yep.

Anybody could have found that weapon and then go to the Nancy's office..... That's what putting congresscritter's lives in danger really looks like, folks!

Lt. Mike Byrd murdered Ashli Babbitt in cold blood.

No warning. She was no threat. He could have pistol whipped her back through the broken window. He could have stood at the broken window with his gun pointed at anyone and said, "I will shoot you if you try to enter here." But instead he stood off in the corner and pulled the trigger.

Chauvin was subduing a law breaking felon resisting arrest and gets decades in jail when the felon overdoses. Mike Byrd should get at least the same.

FUCKING MURDERER!

How could anyone see that video and not conclude cold blooded murder? Maybe this is why they will not press charges, as they know a jury would convict.

LOCK HIM UP!

Whites don’t riot, no one cares.

I imagine I'll be waiting patiently for a rational, good faith argument that this was justified, at all.

He was already "exonerated"
Move along, nothing to see here.

The next time someone resists arrest the cop should go straight to the glock. Anything less would be murder.

Fortwaynemobile says

Whites don’t riot, no one cares.

Another angle:

I bet the protesters at the end of the video are rotting in jail.

https://thefederalist.com/2022/01/12/cop-who-killed-ashli-babbitt-was-never-interviewed-by-investigators-now-walks-free/?source=patrick.net

Cop Who Killed Ashli Babbitt Never Interviewed By Investigators, Now Back In Charge Of House Security
BY: PAUL SPERRY
JANUARY 12, 2022