patrick.net

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It makes it easier to market their green new deal like electric cars, solar, etc.

I think the green market is saturated at this point if that makes sense. I'm not attaching solar to my roof. I'm not getting an EV. I'm the pretty standard person in rural IL and most of the midwest. We don't get enough sunlight for solar to be viable and too many hail storms. Manual labor even something like plumbing or electric there's no EV that is remotely close to being viable for business uses. Time is money and you cannot be sitting there looking for a charging spot and sit there for 30 minutes to get to the next job to be "green."

Not because I lean Libertarian/Republican, but I think the Dems have lost all touch of reality. Oil and LNG are here to stay. All high gas and LNG prices does is hurt the poor the most, aka their voter base. They assume they'll stay dumb forever. I think next month is going to be a real eye opener for them.

We also don't talk much about other inflated products. My case of beer went from $15 to $20 in a year. Mind you that doesn't move me, but your average person, non-white collar, shit like that adds up along with high gas prices. They cannot afford EV's even if they could use them for working, they can't. We need cheap oil. It's obvious.. As we're seeing with Europe, going "green" makes you vulnerable as fuck.

WookieMan says

I'm not attaching solar to my roof.

Florida is above average to very good for solar based on NREL compared to excellent for southern Arizona :
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However, the problem with solar in Florida is with the property insurance companies.
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https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/money/some-insurance-companies-dropping-florida-customers-solar-panels-on-their-homes/77-20929c68-bb37-4ae8-b39c-cdf37bb1e2a5

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https://www.theblaze.com/news/gavin-newsom-gas-prices-tax

Gavin Newsom calls for emergency tax to combat high gas prices in California and gets mocked mercilessly online...

"Gas prices in Florida are half the price in California. Why is it only California with $7 gas right now!" asked Christina Pushaw, the rapid response director for Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R).

"Really strange how oil companies only get really greedy when they cross the California border," read another popular response.

"Only an economically illiterate Democrat would think enacting yet another state tax on petroleum companies will bring about a decrease in gas prices LOL. You couldn't make up this level of stupid if you tried," responded another detractor.

"Gas prices are $3 less per gallon in Texas. I guess Texas uses different oil companies," said another critic.

So, what people seem to be missing is that the supply/demand is outta balance. Higher prices would normally decrease the usage of products but ...

California in its great economic wisdom sent out Inflation Relief Checks (these started getting sent out Friday). Their thinking is that to combat inflation, they will simply send out more "free" money. Most people call this doubling down on stupid.

I dunno, I don't live there so it's not my tax money.

Democrats really think Newsom stands a chance at being president...then he will be able to send ever increasing amounts of "free" money to everyone getting rid of poverty once and for all. Oh, the joys.

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/california-inflation-relief-checks-go-out-today-everything-you-need-to-know/

https://slaynews.com/news/valero-shuts-down-dems-complaining-about-high-prices-california-is-the-most-expensive-operating-environment-in-this-country-and-a-very-hostile-regulatory-environment-policymakers-have/

Valero Shuts Down Democrats Complaining about High Gas Prices: Policymakers Are ‘Eliminating Refinery Sector’

American energy giant Valero has responded to Democrat politicians who demanded information about high gas prices in California.

The company issued a blistering rebuke of all the Democrat policies that caused oil prices to soar.

https://www.newsmax.com/Politics/economy-opec-oil/2022/10/07/id/1090986/

A new study indicates that President Joe Biden's energy policies have cost the U.S. nearly $100 billion in annual output, leaving millions more barrels that could have been produced.

The Committee to Unleash Prosperity — a group founded by economists Steve Forbes, Art Laffer, and Stephen Moore — discovered a trend while reviewing oil and gas production under the previous two administrations.

Between 2 and 3 million more barrels of oil would be produced each day if former President Donald Trump had a second term, with another 20 to 25 billion cubic feet of natural gas produced as well, according to the report.

In addition, continuing Trump's policies would make domestic oil production far outpace the current OPEC cut, with researchers claiming that not a single barrel of oil would need to be sold from the U.S. strategic reserves.

"After many humiliating months of President Biden begging Saudi Arabia and other OPEC countries to please increase their oil production, OPEC countries have decided to do just the opposite: they are cutting back on supply by two million barrels a day to drive UP the price of oil," Moore stated.

"These high prices at the pump are in no small part attributable to Biden's hostility to American oil and gas production," he concluded, adding that the radical environmentalist movement has led to substantial divestment in oil and gas development.

Gas prices jumped here in San Antonio since last week. Up 29 cents to $3.19.

cisTits says

Got that fucker beat.

Fremont, about 45min ago:

What the fuck ? I'm paying $2.90 a gallon in the Florida panhandle now.

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cisTits says

Got that fucker beat.

Fremont, about 45min ago:

What the fuck ? I'm paying $2.90 a gallon in the Florida panhandle now.

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Chevron is the most expensive. Still, probably about $6.20 for low octane elsewhere. Costco is doing a very big business! My local Costco has 36 pumps (I think) and the line is often all the way through the parking lot and out onto the road. Between the high cost of housing and all the taxes (my largest expense), the high-tech workers just shrug. There are $80k+ Teslas everywhere you look... those people are filling up for 40¢ per kWh if they aren't getting it free at work.

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cisTits says

Got that fucker beat.

Fremont, about 45min ago:

What the fuck ? I'm paying $2.90 a gallon in the Florida panhandle now.

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I don't pay attention, but I think we're around $4.25/gal and that's with Prickzker doing a temporary reduction in the gas tax. I'm rural too, so generally it's cheaper than say Shitcago. They're probably in the $6 range. They also temporarily stopped state sales taxes on groceries here as well. Never seen either move in my lifetime.

Dems here are throwing all the shit at the wall to see what sticks. Every district in my area cannot even get people to drive school buses for $35/hr. Kids are late to school and getting home. Everything is off. Not sure how to explain it. Not bad, but not good. But it feels bad if that makes any sense.

WookieMan says

Shitcago

I was once driving to work in Chicago and listening to the radio, when Mayor Daley said "the great shitty of Chicago".

Maybe a Freudian slip, but it was hilarilous.

When you see it...

National average record was $5.01 set on 6/14/22. At that time, Alaska hit $5.60 and Hawaii $5.62. California today right now is $6.19. That sounds bad until you learn that diesel is $6.65! Wow! That's going to play awesome when our idiot governor runs for president against De Santis (regular $3.40, diesel $4.99).

The "Lawrence Station" Costco in Sunnyvale has 30 (yes, thirty) gas pumps. The line of cars and trucklets often goes through the parking lot and out onto the side road waiting! It seems that saving 30¢/gallon when gas is expensive is more fun than saving 30¢/gallon when gas is cheap?

SunnyvaleCA says

That sounds bad until you learn that diesel is $6.65! Wow!

I wonder if dems have intentionally biased some of the price increase into diesel and away from reg gas. Normal people only look at the price of reg gas, so its better to jack up diesel prices extra if doing so can alleviate some pressure on the reg gas prices they look at. Plus, the manifestations of high dispel prices is a general increase in prices of goods due to shipping and input costs, which plays nicely into the "supply chain causing inflation because covid not because briben"

I dont know much about this industry so not sure if thats realistic for them to do, but its a thought.

US oil rig count peaked in March 2020 at 683

It is now at 602 and has been around 600 since mid July 2020. So its still 10% below 2020 levels.

Its as if they stopped increase in production since July.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_oil_rotary_rigs

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SunnyvaleCA says

The line of cars and trucklets often goes through the parking lot and out onto the side road waiting! It seems that saving 30¢/gallon when gas is expensive is more fun than saving 30¢/gallon when gas is cheap?

I'm at a different station in life I guess. 30¢/gal difference is so trivial and I drive a V8 that is 24 gallons I believe. You're talking a $7 savings per fill up. I can make that in the time I'm waiting.

People don't value time like they should. Get the gas and go out and hustle even if you pay more. Or relax and enjoy life. It's no different than coupon clipping. You're wasting time when you can be more productive and earn more.

WookieMan says

30¢/gal difference is so trivial

Yep, must be the thrill of the hunt.

https://www.ntd.com/white-house-confirms-biden-admin-asked-saudis-to-postpone-oil-cuts-until-1-month-after-midterms_855715.html?src_src=newsletter&src_cmp=2022-10-14

The White House just admitted to a crime, asking a foreign country to influence US elections.

Don't get all angry at me, homies, for saying so, -

And no, it's not "my wish".

It's physics.

Even at $20.00 per gallon, which would come out to one dollar per mile in a modest 20 mpg vehicle, gasoline is Super-Cheap for transportation. A bargain of the millenia.

WookieMan says

SunnyvaleCA says

The line of cars and trucklets often goes through the parking lot and out onto the side road waiting! It seems that saving 30¢/gallon when gas is expensive is more fun than saving 30¢/gallon when gas is cheap?

I'm at a different station in life I guess. 30¢/gal difference is so trivial and I drive a V8 that is 24 gallons I believe. You're talking a $7 savings per fill up. I can make that in the time I'm waiting.

People don't value time like they should. Get the gas and go out and hustle even if you pay more. Or relax and enjoy life. It's no different than coupon clipping. You're wasting time when you can be more productive and earn more.

I'm not one that joins the line. I was just mentioning that other people were joining the line and doing so when the actual savings weren't any different than before. An ex-girlfriend once prodded me enough to join the line; I turned off the engine and made her push to move up while waiting and she hasn't had that desire since!

B.A.C.A.H. says

Even at $20.00 per gallon,

I look at it as far as car ownership, just like home ownership, as being a percentage of total income.

Granted the new GMC Sonoma I had in 1995 is a little different than the GMC Canyon now offered in 2022.

But I look at it this way. When I was working in high school at Red Lobster in 1985 making $4.25 an hour, I recall a basic small truck like a Ford Ranger was selling out-the-door for around $4500.

A comparable truck (Ford Maverick) sells for about $25,000 out-the-door compared to the same job paying about $16 an hour.

Pay went up about 4 times, but the price of the vehicle replacement went up about 5.6 times :-(

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B.A.C.A.H. says

Even at $20.00 per gallon, which would come out to one dollar per mile in a modest 20 mpg vehicle, gasoline is Super-Cheap for transportation. A bargain of the millenia.

Haha.

OK, let's say a cashier works at your local supermarket, and they are making $20/hr and can't afford to live in your posh, expensive neighborhood, so they live 30 miles away in a less expensive part of town.

People are so clueless.

richwicks says

People are so clueless.

What is clueless about saying the reality, that safely and reliably moving a one ton vehicle one mile for one dollar, with room for four or five people and a payload of stuff (groceries or whatever), in weather-proof comfort, is a Bargain of the Ages? Which part is clueless? Are you saying I am clueless?

Yes, yes, I know. If or when that happens it's going to be a lot of hardships for a lot of people, including me (doesn't change the physics though). The clerk you mention of whom I've known a few for decades who work here in SJ and commute in from afar would have hardship, no doubt. Of course, they can carpool, "rideshare", but many folks just don't want to share nowadays. That can change.

And our cheapest-in-the-world (franken)food that's farmed with diesel including by some of my relatives will not be so cheap any more.

More for transportation, more for commuting, more costly utilities (also a bargain compared to days before we had them) will leave less for other stuff. Like discretionary fun stuff, and rent, and mortgages.

personal

richwicks says

that's $60 just to get to and from work, in some used junker car that is 20 years old,

Unless you rideshare.

I did ridesharing when I was one of those in the 1980's. Compared to walking, or bicycling, or very long rides on public tranit with three transfers, it wasn't so bad. (The public transit commute took about two hours partly because of long walks to bus stops on each end). I made minimum wage as a parts cleaner in a lab about 25 miles from home, commuting in my old beater 1973 AMC Gremlin. My rideshare partner had a similar kind of Old Beater.

Oh I know it's gonna hurt like hell. Fertilizer, diesel, trucks, commuters, value chain, all of it.

We've built our lives around Cheap Energy. Expressing hostility and anger at the messenger for saying so isn't going to change things, except that your anger may hurt you.

richwicks says

If a carrot cost an extra $0.10 to farm, carrots don't go up by $0.10, they go up by a $1.00 - ten times.

That depends where the cost is along the supply chain. It may be at the end of the chain such as retail outlet (i.e., grocery). It could be that they need to charge an extra 10 cents because of an increase in local tax on businesses, or any other reason that is specific to that store.

But I see your point as far as a process in series or serial process. where each box typically charges an X % based on the origination cost.

So if there are 4 steps of the process and the first step represents $0.50 then each step after charges 20% of the origination cost ($0.50), then the total cost is $0.5 x (1.2)(1.2)(1.2) or $0.86.

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richwicks says

If a carrot cost an extra $0.10 to farm, carrots don't go up by $0.10, they go up by a $1.00 - ten times.

That depends where the cost is along the supply chain.

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I'm saying at the start. I had this explained to me at RCA.

You add 10cents to a phone's cost, well everybody along the line until you get to the consumer expects to make a PERCENTAGE and that's fixed for them. They have investment capital, somebody up the line (say distributor, salesman, seller - and there are more), aren't going to willing lost $0.10 per phone. It's literally like 10x the cost at the end of it.

This was explained to me when I was bitching about RCA being too cheap on parts of a DSS box. NRE (non recoverable engineering) costs don't get passed up. That's a one time thing. So even though they had to pay me $30,000 to make this piece of shit part work in the system, rather than spend $0.1 to make a better solution, they wouldn't.

Another thing, there's a big difference between selling a product for $199 and $201 dollars. It's only $2 bucks, but its psychological perception. 1 is a LOT less than 2..

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So if there are 4 steps of the process and the first step represents $0.50 then each step after charges 20% of the origination cost ($0.50), then the total cost is $0.5 x (1.2)(1.2)(1.2) or $0.86.

There's a bunch of steps. There's insurance on the product in case it's destroyed, there's storage, which also includes insurance, if you know the whole fucking line to get something from silicon to a product, it's like 40 steps too. It's crazy.

I think Rich is right on his recent comments on this thread. I don't worry about gas as an individual. We expense it to my wife's company. And high oil prices technically help me as long as municipalities are willing to pay, which they are because the alternative is more expensive. Not going to explain, don't want to dox myself. Infrastructure related.

Also, ride sharing generally doesn't work long term. Could for a couple months maybe a couple years. Everyone's life and job changes. Literally sharing a ride could end over night and you're scrambling to get to work. I don't even trust public transportation.

I have trust issues as another layer. I generally don't trust who is operating the bus, train, car or whatever to not get me killed. I'll take care of that myself and just drive. Flight is the only one I trust as I've basically done most of the ground school myself. It's not hard, but it's more intense than people understand.

We have the gas and oil. There's no reason for gas prices to be as high as they are. $20/gal would shoot inflation to the moon. Eventually a new "normal" would be discovered, but it would take probably a decade of suffering and famine.

And I get it's a deal for us here in America, but that's because we have the resources. Europe doesn't and for that reason they'll be in a perpetual state of war in that region. Europe will crumble in our lifetimes. Might be happening now. They've done it twice and they're due at this point. Hopefully we just send weapons.

WookieMan says

ride sharing generally doesn't work long term. Could for a couple months maybe a couple years. Everyone's life and job changes. Literally sharing a ride could end over night and you're scrambling to get to work

Agreed, it doesn't work when fuel is relatively cheap.

But when it becomes expensive and there's no alternatives, people will make it work because they will have to.

And no, richwicks, I am not insensitive to this stuff. My family and others I care about will be hurt when fuel for transportation (and farming, fertilizer, industry) becomes too expensive. I get it. Getting angry about recognizing the physics of this reality, and belittling / lashing out at the messenger does nothing to deal with the situation.

It's something to keep in mind when we make choices about where we live, how we live, where we commute, etc.

I have a friend from college who is a college professor (engineering) in Germany. He "commuted" from his home in Kassel (near old border with East Germany) to his job in Dortmund (far west), with equivalent $9 per gallon petrol price. He carpooled ("rideshared") with another professor who had a similar situation. They shared an apartment in Dortmund, only went home weekends. He was away from his nuclear family during the week. After several years of doing this he swallowed his College Professorship pride for a lower paying, less artsy-fartsy "researchy" ("teaching") gig at a less prestigious college near Kassel. Kept explaining to me to rationalize the move which I totally get but by doing I think he was still rationalizing it to himself.

My inlaws in the Philippines live the reality that petrol prices hit the purchasing power of their wages like $20-$30/gal gasoline would hit us here. Some of them have their own cars, but they don't drive much. There's jeepneys all over the place for rides. People are resilient.

The adjustments will be horribly painful for us who built our lives around abundantly cheap energy. This is already happening in the UK. There's plenty of YouTube videos about folks in Britain struggling with what they call "fuel poverty".

B.A.C.A.H. says

There's jeepneys all over the place for rides.

I was at Clark AFB back in the day and rode the jeepneys. It was fun riding these gaudy decorated jeep-like cars that would take on as many passengers could pile in or hang on.