patrick.net

Eman says

All companies are vertically integrated and offered the same warranty. 25 years on workmanship, performance, roof penetration, parts and labor, etc… with maximum solar degradation of 14% aka 86% efficiency by the end of year 25.

Probably no chance one of them is standing at the end of 25 years. They WILL make your roof leak, though CA doesn't see a ton of rain.

10 years for my current electric bill your system would cost me $291.66/mo. That assumes all my electric needs will be met. They won't. I'm $125-50/mo on average. I'm losing $150/mo if I go solar. That's in a sunny year too. Haven't had solar sunlight that would produce for an entire week here in IL. Solar only works in specific locations. Midwest is not one of them.

The math doesn't work unless you're south/north of Capricorn or Cancer lines. Basically the equator. Sure it looks good in Alaska doing the summer, goes to shit in the winter. Solar really only works well between C & C lines and outside of hurricane zones. Basically solar doesn't work. It's a status symbol. Not energy savings.

WookieMan says

Probably no chance one of them is standing at the end of 25 years. They WILL make your roof leak,

Just use the panels to build a carport.

Eman says

I believe PW is a luxury item.

IMO there's a large benefit most don't immediately think about. Its not the fact that you get a day or so of battery backup power, its the fact that most solar systems which include a battery are built w/ different components and wired differently, making them able to harvest solar when the grid is down, while most systems w/o a battery cannot operate at all w/o grid power being up. So, if your battery has given your system this off grid operation ability, then the grid can go down for weeks, and you'll have power the entire time if the sun shines.

Personally I would double check with your installer if this will be the case. It's unusual, but some systems use batteries but cannot harvest solar w/o the grid, so once the battery depletes, you have no power just like all your neighbors. Which really sucks. Especially since it sounds like you went w/ a much larger system than needed to generally cover your current usage, which could perform really well in a long term grid outage.

solar is definitely a CA item. im snow covered, solar here has major limitations. sunshine from 17 to 17:09… yes 9 minutes total.

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

solar is definitely a CA item. im snow covered, solar here has major limitations. sunshine from 17 to 17:09… yes 9 minutes total.

My sister and brother-in-law have a solar system in New Hampshire. They have been running a surplus for electricity for years. They just installed a mini-split system into their home so that may change.

They mostly heat their home with a wood stove in the basement, and just let the heat creep up. They have a water heater system using radiators, but the wood stove in the basement does 80% of the work.

If the power goes out though, their solar system stops operating. There's no battery backup of any sort, and it cannot run independently of the grid at all.

The mini-split is mostly for air conditioning in the summer, not for heating.

Hircus says

So, if your battery has given your system this off grid operation ability, then the grid can go down for weeks, and you'll have power the entire time if the sun shines.

Weeks is a stretch. 2 cloudy days and you're generally fucked if you want to run your house as normal on solar even with a battery backup.

Natural gas is the way to go. Pressurized. Generally would need to be shut down by a pipe failure underground. Generally not happening. No sun for 4-6 days and your food is trash by the end of it. I think wind, at least for my area and a massive battery would be better. Solar seems to be the least "intelligent" of renewable energies.

The surface area it takes is obnoxious as well. You could put up two wind turbines and produce the same electricity whether it's light or dark out charging a battery. Solar is dumb in my book of life. Hydro and wind are substantially better. Obviously nukes. Solar is a god awful way to produce power and "feel" good about it. I'm into architecture too, and it makes houses look like pure shit.

WookieMan says

Solar only works in specific locations. Midwest is not one of them.

I know some people w/ solar in the Denver area, and another in SW Nebraska, and solar works pretty good for them. Its ok if snow covers the panels for some fraction of the days of the year. Obviously you lose some production, but that's ok. You don't need to produce enough energy to exceed your daily usage, and its ok if there's some or even many days where you produce practically nothing. The idea is the more annual kwh you produce, the less you buy from the utility. It's about math in the end. The difference in annual production is not enormous in the various places in the usa, so it can work well in most locations. Obviously it works better and for more people in the SW. Like I mentioned earlier, undersized systems often give even better bang for the buck.



WookieMan says

Hircus says

So, if your battery has given your system this off grid operation ability, then the grid can go down for weeks, and you'll have power the entire time if the sun shines.

No sun for 4-6 days and your food is trash by the end of it.

You can use power from the grid and/or any other source. Installing a solar system does not suddenly mean you cannot use any other power source. In fact this is rare - most solar installs are done to supplement grid power, to save money.

WookieMan says

You could put up two wind turbines and produce the same electricity whether it's light or dark out charging a battery.

I don't think you've done any math on this. The economics of wind turbines + battery storage just doesnt work well for many people. They work terrific if you have lots of consistent strong wind. If its inconsistent, the cost of energy storage (really high) destroys the economics. Most turbines produce very poorly if the wind is only light/moderate.

WookieMan says

Solar is dumb in my book of life. Hydro and wind are substantially better. Obviously nukes. Solar is a god awful way to produce power and "feel" good about it. I'm into architecture too, and it makes houses look like pure shit.

It sounds like you have some personal issue w/ solar. Use the right tool for the job. Solar works terrific for many use cases, and the math agrees. Opinions are a different thing.

Eman says

I’m a YOLO guy. I blast the A/C when it’s hot and crank up the heater when it’s cold. I don’t care if it’s peak or off-peak. At the end of the day, spend an extra $100-$200/month to be comfortable is a small price to pay.

Yeah I don't get that whole peak time either. If it's comfortable outside, then I don't run the AC. The whole point of climate control is to set the desired comfort, hence is why an AC comes with a thermostat. It's absurd to be charged more, because you used a service when you needed it most.

richwicks says

If the power goes out though, their solar system stops operating. There's no battery backup of any sort, and it cannot run independently of the grid at all.

I have toured many solar systems over the years. The systems I saw that went down when the grid went down were the ones that lacked a transfer switch. A Virginia law requires a solar system to shut down when the commercial power goes out, as to prevent backfeed from harming the lineman. Installing a transfer switch allows one to keep the solar system running during power failures (same rules as for a generator). As long as the sun is shining, one can get power whether a battery is charged or not.

HeadSet says

Installing a transfer switch allows one to keep the solar system running during power failures

I'm no expert, but from what I've seen the equipment is a bit different for grid tie vs off grid solar. Some components can do both, but it usually costs a bit more for this feature, so often you see the system just setup to do grid tie only to save costs. So the inverter probably also needs to be changed after installing the xfer switch:

1) A "grid tied" inverter specifically looks for utility power and will shut down if they dont see any. Although, you could trick it by feeding it AC power via a generator or other source the entire time.
2) Only some inverters can run off grid without a battery. From what I've seen, most (but not all) need a battery, although it can be small.

WookieMan says

Eman says

All companies are vertically integrated and offered the same warranty. 25 years on workmanship, performance, roof penetration, parts and labor, etc… with maximum solar degradation of 14% aka 86% efficiency by the end of year 25.

Probably no chance one of them is standing at the end of 25 years. They WILL make your roof leak, though CA doesn't see a ton of rain.

10 years for my current electric bill your system would cost me $291.66/mo. That assumes all my electric needs will be met. They won't. I'm $125-50/mo on average. I'm losing $150/mo if I go solar. That's in a sunny year too. Haven't had solar sunlight that would produce for an entire week here in IL. Solar only works in specific locations. Midwest is not one of them.

The math doesn't work unless you're south/north of Capricorn or Cancer lines. Basically the equator. Sure it looks good in Alaska ...

Solar is also a status symbol now? 😂

Hircus says

Eman says

I believe PW is a luxury item.

IMO there's a large benefit most don't immediately think about. Its not the fact that you get a day or so of battery backup power, its the fact that most solar systems which include a battery are built w/ different components and wired differently, making them able to harvest solar when the grid is down, while most systems w/o a battery cannot operate at all w/o grid power being up. So, if your battery has given your system this off grid operation ability, then the grid can go down for weeks, and you'll have power the entire time if the sun shines.

Personally I would double check with your installer if this will be the case. It's unusual, but some systems use batteries but cannot harvest solar w/o the grid, so once the battery depletes, you have no power just like all your neighbors. Which really sucks. Especially since it soun...

You’re right. PW does have its advantage. Our house can be powered on indefinitely during sunny season, even if there’s a power outage, as solar will charge the battery first. Only surplus electricity gets put back in the grid. It’s prudent to roll the surplus forward rather than selling it back to PG&E for pennies on the dollar. We also have the option to add more PW at a later date. The price is quite steep at $11.5k per PW at the moment.

HeadSet says

richwicks says

If the power goes out though, their solar system stops operating. There's no battery backup of any sort, and it cannot run independently of the grid at all.

I have toured many solar systems over the years. The systems I saw that went down when the grid went down were the ones that lacked a transfer switch. A Virginia law requires a solar system to shut down when the commercial power goes out, as to prevent backfeed from harming the lineman. Installing a transfer switch allows one to keep the solar system running during power failures (same rules as for a generator). As long as the sun is shining, one can get power whether a battery is charged or not.

The line voltage at my sister's place is reliable. Basically, both my sister and her husband work for the state as civil engineers. If they understood my line of thinking, it would be... foreign to them.

Ultimately it's a question of cost. Is it worthwhile for them to have a system that can run independently of the grid? In the current environment, the answer would be no. There is no reason in their viewpoint to have a transfer switch to them. They have a great deal of independence from the system, they "grow" their own cows for example, but they cannot see a breakdown, and at their age (60s) perhaps they are right for their lifetime. Time will tell.

Hircus says

1) A "grid tied" inverter specifically looks for utility power and will shut down if they dont see any.

As you know, an inverter is nothing more than a device that converts DC to AC power, which is needed since solar panels generate DC and most household appliances run on AC. I presume you are talking about added electronics to the inverter circuitry that shuts down the system if it senses no current from the power grid. This shutdown seems to me to be more for legal reasons to stop backfeed, and not for technical or inverter cost reasons. However, that circuitry could just as well throw a transfer switch that disconnects the circuit panel from the grid and connects it strictly to the solar system. Transfer switches are not new, they have been used for years with standby natural gas generators that only kick in when the power goes out. All the systems I have seen are grid connected, and most were "net zero," but I would like to build an off-grid cabin sometime in the future.

A serious solar house would use DC appliances like those used in motor homes with no inverter needed, and a transfer switch. Transfer switches do have a delay (to prevent switching during momentary blips or very short outages) so maybe a large UPS could be used if one wants uninterrupted power. Pricy though.

Hircus says

1) A "grid tied" inverter specifically looks for utility power and will shut down if they dont see any. Although, you could trick it by feeding it AC power via a generator or other source the entire time.

Feeding AC power from a generator into your circuit panel during a power outage is against the law, as is feeding solar power during an outage because it endangers the lineman who come out to fix the outage. Unless, of course, you have a transfer switch.

I penciled solar out when we lived in California and cost per kWh was 16 cents. Payback is when the panels lifespan ends. A grid tie system does nothing when the grid shuts off. Batteries add $10k to the cost and environmentally is a disaster. Now we live in Idaho and cost per kWh is 8-9 cents. No panels needed.

HeadSet says

Feeding AC power from a generator into your circuit panel during a power outage is against the law, as is feeding solar power during an outage because it endangers the lineman who come out to fix the outage. Unless, of course, you have a transfer s

I was saying you need to upgrade the inverter in addition to the the xfer switch, not in place of. I've always heard people say the grid tied inverter shut down functionality was specifically to prevent zapping the lineman.

And they do have units that can operate an xfer switch electronically for you, but I believe these are the more expensive units I mentioned. They seem to call these "hybrids", since they can do operation configs typical of both grid-tie and off-grid, and are also able to backfeed into the grid if desired. I skimmed the manual for some of these recently and some look pretty cool technically - they can be setup to operate with various prioritizations, like prefer grid, prefer PV, prefer battery, and so on.

You can actually get ups functionality pretty cheap. They seem to claim 10-20ms switching time for many models I've seen recently, although sometimes they claim "instant" switching (chinese style marketing I assume). They can switch from running on PV power to either battery backup, or even switch over to grid power, even on "off grid" units. Like this one https://watts247.com/product/pip-3048lv-mk/ and some units have generator start relays, but that obviously cant be an instant switch w/o another power source to bridge it.

Batteries are expensive though. Seems right now the diy budget community is using either used EV battery cells, or they buy new lifepo4 cells + a BMS direct from china and build their own. I'm about to do this myself. I figure I can build a 15kwh battery for ~$2400. A similar capacity powerwall is $8k, although it has an internal inverter and charger, and is most certainly higher quality. But its an interesting diy project to me.

A friendly reminder that the grid is not necessary if you can salvage from a wrecked Tesla...
https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1510771677541580805?ref_src=patrick.net

EBGuy says

A friendly reminder that the grid is not necessary if you can salvage from wrecked a Tesla...
https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1510771677541580805?ref_src=patrick.net

Oh yeah, if you can take a Tesla battery and convert it into a powerwall. That’s huge. They’re between 75-100 kWh battery pack each. That’s equivalent to 5-7 powerwalls. I’m not a tech guy unfortunately so I don’t know how to make this work, but it’s a great for anyone who can DIY.

Our solar system costs $2.70/watt before tax credits. $2 after tax credits. Quotes came in between $2.55 to $3.08/watt before credits. Just some numbers for anyone who is interested.

At new base rates of 33 cents/kWhr, my solar system (finally) broke even (over 35,000 kWHr of electricity produced). It's a tiny system (less than 2kW) and I've had it for maybe ten years (at a cost of $10k after rebates and credits). Yes, I realize, lots of hand waving on my end, but bear in mind it was shaving off Tier 2 and Tier 3 marginal rates (which are $.39 and $.49 per kWHr in the latest schedules). It'll be putting over $800 a year in my pocket... at least until the inverter breaks.
@eman, congrats on your new system. Let us know how it goes once the install is complete. You're paying less than half of what I did (and getting a PowerWall to boot).

Hircus says

solar in the Denver area

Rockies, not the midwest. Hircus says

I don't think you've done any math on this. The economics of wind turbines + battery storage just doesnt work well for many people.

Just like your map doesn't work out for many people either with solar. I live next to one of the largest wind farms on the planet. What do I know? They just build them for fun?

For renewables solar is by far the worst. It's not even a contest when you factor in wind, hydro and nukes. Solar is not the future.

EBGuy says

At new base rates of 33 cents/kWhr, my solar system (finally) broke even (over 35,000 kWHr of electricity produced). It's a tiny system (less than 2kW) and I've had it for maybe ten years (at a cost of $10k after rebates and credits). Yes, I realize, lots of hand waving on my end, but bear in mind it was shaving off Tier 2 and Tier 3 marginal rates (which are $.39 and $.49 per kWHr in the latest schedules). It'll be putting over $800 a year in my pocket... at least until the inverter breaks.
eman, congrats on your new system. Let us know how it goes once the install is complete. You're paying less than half of what I did (and getting a PowerWall to boot).

@EBGuy, $2.70/watt pre-tax credits. $2/watt after tax credits. The cost of PW is not included as it’s an “optional” item. I should have been more clear.

First PW costs $5.5k after discount and tax credits. Each additional PW costs $4.9k. Based on the calculations, 1 PW should last us 1.5 days. If it’s sunny, then it’s indefinitely. Been thinking under what scenario we would need more than 1 PW.

Looks like you’re an early solar adopter. I was an early Tesla adopter so I get free supercharging for life. It works out.

Eman says

Been thinking under what scenario we would need more than 1 PW.

when 1 goes out? things can break.

good for off grid where replacement waiting for downtime is painful.

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

Eman says

Been thinking under what scenario we would need more than 1 PW.

when 1 goes out? things can break.

good for off grid where replacement waiting for downtime is painful.

Exactly, redundancies can be important when talking about the ability to continue operating if even only at a minimum.

Also, if they can be setup as alternating lead lag in the power programming, you can distribute discharges separately if you stay under the maximum kW peak of the one battery source.

Eman, hopefully you can get in under the wire and qualify for NEM 2.0, as NEM 3.0 reimbursement rates will be a lot lower.
California slashes incentives for new rooftop solar, promotes batteries to shift grid costs
Instead of being credited at the retail rate of electricity, customers will get paid at the “actual avoided cost.” That figure is lower than the retail rate during the daylight hours, when solar energy is abundant and cheap, but it’s higher during the evening hours — when solar production ramps down to practically zero when the sun goes down and California’s electric grid is under the most stress.

The California Solar & Storage Association has estimated the average compensation rate would drop from 30 cents per kilowatt to 8 cents, a reduction of 75 percent.

EBGuy says

Eman, hopefully you can get in under the wire and qualify for NEM 2.0, as NEM 3.0 reimbursement rates will be a lot lower.
California slashes incentives for new rooftop solar, promotes batteries to shift grid costs
Instead of being credited at the retail rate of electricity, customers will get paid at the “actual avoided cost.” That figure is lower than the retail rate during the daylight hours, when solar energy is abundant and cheap, but it’s higher during the evening hours — when solar production ramps down to practically zero when the sun goes down and California’s electric grid is under the most stress.

The California Solar & Storage Association has estimated the average compensation rate would drop from 30 cents per kilowatt to 8 cents, a reduction of 75 percent.

@EBGuy, per Tesla solar, I should qualify for NEM 2.0. Installation will likely happen by February. As long as they apply before 4/14, I should get grandfathered in NEM 2.0.

Thinking of biting the bullet and pay for a second PW and be done with it. Then I don’t have to worry about power outage and can run A/C full blast during the heatwave with 2 PW’s.

The government giveth and the government taketh away.

Today it's grandfathered and tomorrow it might change on a whim. The noises are already being made to claw back all the "unfair giveaways to the rich people".

RWSGFY says

The government giveth and the government taketh away.

Today it's grandfathered and tomorrow it might change on a whim. The noises are already being made to claw back all the "unfair giveaways to the rich people".

We all make our bets and live with the consequences. Nothing is guaranteed in this life other than death and taxes.

It’s interesting that not making bets is essentially making bets. This is the difference between people, who are willing to make bets and accepting failures, in the pursuit of their dreams compared to ones who are afraid to make bets, stay with their W2, while keep dreaming of all the could have, would have and should have….

This is why wealthy people don’t stop working while normal people drag themselves out of bed every morning, go to work at a job they don’t care for, or even hate, rather than pursuing their dreams. We all have choices, and America provides all the opportunities people in the entire world can only hope for.

I LOVE AMERICA!

Eman says

RWSGFY says

The government giveth and the government taketh away.

Today it's grandfathered and tomorrow it might change on a whim. The noises are already being made to claw back all the "unfair giveaways to the rich people".

We all make our bets and live with the consequences. Nothing is guaranteed in this life other than death and taxes.

It’s interesting that not making bets is essentially making bets. This is the difference between people, who are willing to make bets and accepting failures, in the pursuit of their dreams compared to ones who are afraid to make bets, stay with their W2, while keep dreaming of all the could have, would have and should have….

This is why wealthy people don’t stop working while normal people drag themselves out of bed every morning, go to work at a job they don’t care for, or even hate, rather than pursuing their dreams. We...

How did solar panels and govenment incentives around them suddenly devolve into a rant about W2s and such?

Did you assume something about somebody here? Don't: assumption is the mother of all fuckups.

RWSGFY says

Eman says

RWSGFY says

The government giveth and the government taketh away.

Today it's grandfathered and tomorrow it might change on a whim. The noises are already being made to claw back all the "unfair giveaways to the rich people".

We all make our bets and live with the consequences. Nothing is guaranteed in this life other than death and taxes.

It’s interesting that not making bets is essentially making bets. This is the difference between people, who are willing to make bets and accepting failures, in the pursuit of their dreams compared to ones who are afraid to make bets, stay with their W2, while keep dreaming of all the could have, would have and should have….

This is why wealthy people don’t stop working while normal people drag themselves out of bed every morning, go ...

The government giveth 30% tax credit. This is fact. Who assumed the government would take away the NEM 2.0, which would get grandfathered in? Thanks for proving my point and your own point.

As I said above, we all make our bets and live with the consequences. Not making bet is essentially making bet. I thought that was an interesting perspective when it was shared with me, and it seems true based on what I’ve seen.

https://cowboystatedaily.com/2023/06/27/baseball-sized-hail-smashing-into-panels-at-150-mph-destroys-scottsbluff-solar-farm/

Baseball-Sized Hail Smashing Into Panels At 150 MPH Destroys Scottsbluff Solar Farm

Have solar on the place we're moving to in Yuma. $100/month over the summer, compared to as much as $400 when I lived in Glendale. Yes, will work out nicely for me.

NuttBoxer says

Have solar on the place we're moving to in Yuma. $100/month over the summer, compared to as much as $400 when I lived in Glendale. Yes, will work out nicely for me.

This is a nice added bonus. Congrats! 🚀🚀

Booger says

If your neighbor's house is shading your solar panels, will they be required to chop them down

The Solar Shade Control Act prohibits homeowners/neighbors from planting a tree or shrub that would shade more than 10% of a neighboring solar collector between the hours of 10 a.m. and 2 p.m.

However, this doesn’t mean you can install solar panels and then demand your neighbors cut their trees down. This act only applies to newly planted trees that replace a dead tree or one that has been removed for safety reasons. It does not apply to existing trees.

So what exactly does this mean? The act requires that neighbors trim back trees after your solar panels are installed. They can still plant trees; they just can’t let them grow so big that they shade your system.

Although this act exists, California also has another policy that requires new solar homes to have a time-of-use (TOU) plan.

What is a TOU plan?

TOU plan states that solar energy production in the early evening is more valuable than other times throughout the day. On the other hand, the Solar Shade Control Act focuses its hours during midday peak, which doesn’t protect homeowners from the shade that falls during the evening peak between 4 to 8 p.m.

In this case, it’s best to negotiate a solar easement with your neighbor.

https://sunlightsolarinc.com/resources/can-i-do-about-my-neighbors-trees-blocking-my-solar-panels/

Looks like Cali fucked that all up like the HST to Griftville.

Eman says

It’s interesting that not making bets is essentially making bets.

Making bets in stock market >> making bets in solar panels on one's roof.

Eric Holder says

Eman says

It’s interesting that not making bets is essentially making bets.

Making bets in stock market >> making bets in solar panels on one's roof.

I view installing solar is like buying an asset be it a house, or an investment. You fix the cost while the cost of electricity keeps going up over time. Then in a decade or less once the cost of solar is paid off, you’d get free electricity for the next couple of decades.

Trollhole says

In this case, it’s best to negotiate a solar easement with your neighbor.

I have ground and air rights. I can plant anything, any time I want, regardless of what the neighbor thinks. If it hangs over your property line you can cut branches on YOUR property. That's it. Not sure if this is a CA thing or what. It's not legal to demand someone cut down a tree in IL because of solar.

WookieMan says

Trollhole says

In this case, it’s best to negotiate a solar easement with your neighbor.

I have ground and air rights. I can plant anything, any time I want, regardless of what the neighbor thinks. If it hangs over your property line you can cut branches on YOUR property. That's it. Not sure if this is a CA thing or what. It's not legal to demand someone cut down a tree in IL because of solar.

This is correct. You can cut branches that hang over your property.

zzyzzx says

https://cowboystatedaily.com/2023/06/27/baseball-sized-hail-smashing-into-panels-at-150-mph-destroys-scottsbluff-solar-farm/

Baseball-Sized Hail Smashing Into Panels At 150 MPH Destroys Scottsbluff Solar Farm

Eman says

I view installing solar is like buying an asset be it a house, or an investment. You fix the cost while the cost of electricity keeps going up over time. Then in a decade or less once the cost of solar is paid off, you’d get free electricity for the next couple of decades.

Only if they continue to waive transmission cost (i.e. "net metering") and don't charge you for trapping heat on the planet for having something that dark covering much lighter colored (hence more reflective) grass and soil. For every unit of electricity a solar panel generates, it's trapping 5+ units of heat on the planet.

Solar panels are good for household energy independence if you also use batteries (including mechanical batteries such as pumping water to higher reservoir during day time then letting it down to power electric turbine at night), but negative value for electric grid/network capacity and reducing global warming.