patrick.net

To all concerned - I did not buy into the 7 days creation fantasy in Sunday School, didn't go for the Chariot of Fire either, asked too many questions and was deemed a troubled soul as well as a trouble maker.

FYI - It was an Evangelical Lutheran Church.

Left the "cult" as soon as I was able to make a clean break and never looked back.

As for all of the rest, the best answers to my queries have come from Catholic Priests who are willing to take the time to sit and discuss over coffee and a couple of lay preachers who are not quick to condemn you to hell such as the case with the church I was forced to attend as a youth.

Best of all - no politics involved with these folks. Just spirited discussions and some genuine friendship as well.

The evangelical Lutheran church (among many others) is Christian in name only. There are likely some Christians in the pews (though just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn’t mean they follow Christ), but I have serious doubts about the clergy because they don’t seem to follow the plain gospel truths and instead focus on silly things like baptism and communion as if they are magic. But if they told you that unless you have a Savior you will spend eternity in outer darkness hopelessly separated from God, and that offended you, then it is clear that the church is not to blame. Because that is basically exactly the reason Jesus came to earth, just as God promised Adam and Eve after they disobeyed His one rule for them and brought sin and death upon all their descendants.

DD214 says

not much on geology huh ?

Got that amniotic fluid from the transwoman yet?

Patrick says

RayAmerica says

the Word was God.

This is the closest I come to believing.

Read the Greek. This is a reference to Jesus, the Logos.

DD214 says

There are an awful lot of people running around at this very moment who take that to mean a day just like we know it right now. That is pretty scary in and of itself, but then again there are still people who believe the Earth is flat.

That hardline has softened in the past five years. But again, time is a construct God created, not binding for Him. So whether the time as we measure it was a millennium, 24 hours, or 24 seconds, it's irrelevant. Unless He's not God...

“We have not government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” —U.S. President John Adams

From the aspect of broken homes, substance abuse, reversing longevity, obesity, mental disorders, lonliness/unhappiness surveys, etc. the growth of Agnostic/Atheist proportion of the population sure hasn't lead to ever-improving social health as predicted by Modernists but rather the reverse. In the past few years, crime has skyrocketed, wrecking the "Abortion=permanent valley of less crime" narrative.

This is a pattern repeated in the Western World, and to some degree in the advanced Asian Countries.

DD214 says

To all concerned - I did not buy into the 7 days creation fantasy in Sunday School, didn't go for the Chariot of Fire either, asked too many questions and was deemed a troubled soul as well as a trouble maker.

FYI - It was an Evangelical Lutheran Church.

Left the "cult" as soon as I was able to make a clean break and never looked back.

I grew up Baptist, mostly in the Midwest. Maybe not as repressed as the south, but pretty freaking close. Although the last church I was a part of was started as an outreach to SE Asian's, and was comprised of mostly youth. Problem, it was headed my missionary's from the Midwest. They instilled a very works based belief system, that was quick to write you off if you didn't adhere to their unspoken rules. Little love, little grace.

Fortunately, I know God, and He's never shied from my doubts or questions. I have asked Him for specific signs at three points in my life, and He delivered every time. When I was on summer mission trips during college, and had some mighty prayer warriors supporting me, I saw things I have never seen since.

If you look to man, you will be forever disappointed, few of us measure up to the Christians we should be. The good at least have the sense to admit our failures. That helps us to stay humble, and extend the grace we so desperately need ourselves. I know that God loves you, I know it because He loves me. The relationship He wants is with you. It doesn't require a church, a priest, or a Bible. Just your willingness to accept the free gift of salvation through His Son Christ Jesus. He welcomes your questions, and invites you to doubt. Thomas did not believe Christ had risen. And when Christ appeared He did not condemn Thomas, but invited him to put his hands into the wounds to remove His doubt. Only cults require blind trust. God asks for faith, built through a relationship with Him. Never blind.

I don't fit in well at most churches today. But there are good ones if you look. And good Christians, who you've already found. Don't see how Lutheran's get off being so judgy when they go all in on the alcohol. My mom worked for a Lutheran church where the pastor had to check into rehab. I shit you not.

NuttBoxer says

I grew up Baptist, mostly in the Midwest. Maybe not as repressed as the south, but pretty freaking close. Although the last church I was a part of was started as an outreach to SE Asian's, and was comprised of mostly youth. Problem, it was headed my missionary's from the Midwest. They instilled a very works based belief system, that was quick to write you off if you didn't adhere to their unspoken rules. Little love, little grace.

Fortunately, I know God, and He's never shied from my doubts or questions. I have asked Him for specific signs at three points in my life, and He delivered every time. When I was on summer mission trips during college, and had some mighty prayer warriors supporting me, I saw things I have never seen since.

If you look to man, you will be forever disappointed, few of us measure up to the Christians we should be. The good at least have the sense to admit our failures. That helps us to stay humble, and extend the grace we so desperately need ourselves. I know ...

I'm more an agnostic than a Christian (even though I had 13 years of catholic school), but I find it hard to believe that the God that loves us and wants us to know Him can be so secretive and obtuse when it comes to doing what "they" claim we should do.

That's why, the only thing I believe from the Gospels is what Christ is claimed to have said in Matthew 18-20, "When two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

PeopleUnited says

The evangelical Lutheran church (among many others) is Christian in name only.

Why can't you all just learn to get along instead of tearing each other down just to claim my god if better than your god and my sect/denomination/synod whatever the fuck is better than yours and is the only one to get your a permanent pass into Elysian Fields.

This is what I do not get about the whole thing. There are entirely too many "Christians" in name only along with too many of every other religion in name only as well.

And when I run into someone who is born again, reformed, in recovery etc. - I get away as fast as humanly possible because the shit is getting flung high, wide and handsome.

As stated by others previously, and the Bible itself: People who blame Christians for their unwillingness to follow Christ have missed the point. Humans will always let you down, but look to Christ because he never will fail you.

By the way, it was you who started to tear down the evangelical Lutherans. I believe that you referred to them as a cult. I would not go that far, but they do have some serious doctrine issues. Jesus did not baptize babies for example.

PeopleUnited says

By the way, it was you who started to tear down the evangelical Lutherans. I believe that you referred to them as a cult. I would not go that far, but they do have some serious doctrine issues. Jesus did not baptize babies for example.

That is true since I was forced to attend and however your commentary is a Class 1A example of Moral Superiority which I have noted before. You may not go so far as labelling them a cult but you have no problem putting your beliefs at a higher and better level.

Case closed.

PeopleUnited says

Humans will always let you down, but look to Christ because he never will fail you.

Many years ago, I worked closely, on a daily basis, with a man that professed to be a 'born again Christian,' but, in reality, he was a hypocrite of the worst kind. He was well known to be a conniver, a liar, and just overall someone that could not be trusted in the slightest. He was also vulgar and would often use the name of Jesus Christ in a
blasphemous manner. Yet, he kept telling me that I 'needed to be born again.' The entire experience left me very sour regarding 'religion.'

Several years after our daily work relationship ended, I began receiving phone calls from an old friend that I attended high school with. He would often tell me about things that
he had read in the Bible, etc. Originally, I thought he fell off the deep end. For whatever reason, I decided to buy a Bible and read it for myself, starting with the New Testament. What I read surprised me, much of it bringing comfort to what was then a tortured soul. Some verses and passages provoked me to really think about what was
being said. My reading the Bible went on for quite some time, when suddenly, I was confronted, by His word, with my own sin and rebellion against God. I distinctly recall
the sense that I had reached a crossroad. I needed to either follow what I believed to be true, or go back to my life that, on the inside, was a wreck. By God's infinite grace,
He gave me the ability to choose His path. That was over 40 years ago, and even though I went through many trials, etc. I never once regretted making that decision.

One other item; we all have our own 'belief' system that provides the foundation for our life. The question is this: upon what authority do you base that belief system upon?
Is there a higher 'authority' that exceeds God's Word? If so, what is it?

DD214 says

PeopleUnited says

By the way, it was you who started to tear down the evangelical Lutherans. I believe that you referred to them as a cult. I would not go that far, but they do have some serious doctrine issues. Jesus did not baptize babies for example.

That is true since I was forced to attend and however your commentary is a Class 1A example of Moral Superiority which I have noted before. You may not go so far as labelling them a cult but you have no problem putting your beliefs at a higher and better level.

Case closed.

Is the person who believes the world is flat at a lower level than a person who believes it is a sphere?

I don’t think so, and never said so. One is simply right and the other wrong. Examine your own words. It is you who are projecting and accusing me of claiming something I do not claim. My beliefs do not make me superior, I am not superior to anyone in any moral sense.

Truth is truth, and pointing out error is pointing out is pointing out error. If my pointing error is offensive, I would expect it is because the offended person knows it is true, but does not want to accept it and/or make a change. It is called conviction and a sign that God is striving with a person to point out their error and draw them to His words of salvation.

(By the way I was raised Lutheran just like you, and I’m thankful for the upbringing. My family is Lutheran and many friends as too, but when God showed me what I was missing, I followed Him on a new path, a path where religion and denomination are worthless compared the the relationship I have with Him)

stereotomy says

I find it hard to believe that the God that loves us and wants us to know Him can be so secretive and obtuse when it comes to doing what "they" claim we should do.

Stick to Jesus words in the gospels. That's a good starting point. And it doesn't line up with "they" nearly as often as you might think. In fact, in Jesus times His greatest opponents, and the ones who set Him up, where "they". The Pharisees and the Sadducees, the religious leaders of the time.

PeopleUnited says

People who blame Christians for their unwillingness to follow Christ have missed the point.

I disagree. We have a duty to reflect God to the world, and our failure is something we are accountable for. Yes, it's unfair to God, but it's also unfair to ask a believer to "Do as I say, and not as I do".

NuttBoxer says

PeopleUnited says

People who blame Christians for their unwillingness to follow Christ have missed the point.

I disagree. We have a duty to reflect God to the world, and our failure is something we are accountable for. Yes, it's unfair to God, but it's also unfair to ask a believer to "Do as I say, and not as I do".

What I mean is anyone who says the reason I’m not a believer is because so and so did this, is a liar and missed the point, it’s not about church, religion or any other person. It’s about Jesus and a relationship with Him.

In Christ alone.... Even if the world and all it’s people turn against me , by the grace of God, I will still follow Him.

RayAmerica says

I distinctly recall
the sense that I had reached a crossroad.

My Dad asked me about getting saved when I was like four or something. I did the prayer, but it didn't mean anything. I know because when I was a bit older I got caught stealing gum from church. I remember distinctly not feeling bad at all that I had done it, but only that I had gotten caught. It was one night in my room before I fell asleep around around the age of 14 or so that I remember not wanting to be alone anymore. It was at that moment I asked God into my life.

PeopleUnited says

What I mean is anyone who says the reason I’m not a believer is because so and so did this, is a liar and missed the point, it’s not about church, religion or any other person. It’s about Jesus and a relationship with Him.

Sure. In the end we are each responsible for our own lives. We can do a great job, and our kids could still turn out bad. Because we all have a choice. But Christians will have to give account for every believer they discourage from the faith.

NuttBoxer says

PeopleUnited says

What I mean is anyone who says the reason I’m not a believer is because so and so did this, is a liar and missed the point, it’s not about church, religion or any other person. It’s about Jesus and a relationship with Him.

Sure. In the end we are each responsible for our own lives. We can do a great job, and our kids could still turn out bad. Because we all have a choice. But Christians will have to give account for every believer they discourage from the faith.

Most people who claim to be Christian are probably not following Christ. Sure a real Christ follower will be held accountable for the missed opportunities to serve God and make a difference for others, but the fake Christians cause way more harm and confusion (examples are most televangelists, and really any so called religion that put denomination before salvation in Jesus) than the Christians who screw up. And any fool who blames Christians for their own unwillingness to follow Christ, is a fool who will die in their sins. And anyone who dies in their sins has only one person to blame, themselves.

You may have forgotten about grace brother.

How so? If someone is bitter about their upbringing or the things that happen to them, they are actually bitter at God, because God allows everything that happens for a reason, and everything that happens happens by the Grace of God to bring the expected end He desires for every believer. No person in hell is there by any reason but their own choice. And every person knows in their heart that there is a God, no matter how hard they try to tell themselves differently and justify their rebellion against Him.

Grace and Mercy abound. And when the gifts of Grace and Mercy are rejected (as most people do reject them according Christ and his teaching of the broad road and the narrow gate).... well that is why everyone deserves a warning because without repentance, changing your mind about sin and rebellion against God, there can be no forgiveness.

didn’t saint george if fetalyn create everything with saint Obama and angelic Biden?

PeopleUnited says

because God allows everything that happens for a reason

You're forgetting this is a world of choice. Not everything happens the way God would do it, because He allows us to choose.

PeopleUnited says

And every person knows in their heart that there is a God, no matter how hard they try to tell themselves differently and justify their rebellion against Him.

I heard a story once about a missionary traveling down the river to bring the gospel to a tribe. On the way he passed a different tribe who knew he was a missionary, and desperately tried to get him to stay as his boat passed. As he went out of site down a bend in the river, he heard a great wail. Point being, not everyone gets the same opportunities to learn about God.

PeopleUnited says

Grace and Mercy abound.

From God yes, but we have a duty to personally demonstrate those qualities as well.

PeopleUnited says

well that is why everyone deserves a warning because without repentance, changing your mind about sin and rebellion against God, there can be no forgiveness.

Absolutely, don't sugar coat the truth. But also don't forget the most important part of salvation, is that it's only by grace. And if we can't demonstrate grace in our lives with others, how can they understand that crucial point?

Well said brother.

And surely God never wanted people to suffer or die in the first place, but that is the path we all have chosen (sin). But if a person is bitter about their parents, their upbringing, how they were treated, their infirmity or unfair lot in life, they truly are bitter at God, because He reminds us that His grace is sufficient. He knows our suffering and sorrows, and He endures them with us, if we let Him. Even the apostle Paul has a chronic ailment that God did not heal him from, and only God knows for certain why all the evil things happen, but still He can turn every evil, and every pain into victory.

Not everyone has equal access to the gospel, but everyone who seeks Him will find Him, no matter the odds.

The gospel is a two edged sword, Grace yes, but repentance as well. The momentary pain of repentance is replaced by joy. But if there is no conviction, no pain of repentance, there is no salvation.

Conservation of matter applies, as the universe has always existed even if its total mass has changed in shape, etc.