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Islam and Violence


 invite response                
2007 Sep 11, 1:35am   534,405 views  2,433 comments

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Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

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1713   Patrick   2022 Oct 24, 5:39pm  

I think Islam is a kind of mind-virus which propagates by killing those who reject it and loving those who accept it.

Maybe all religions are like that to some degree, but Islam is quite extreme in the distinction between believer and non-believer.

Dislike for outsiders is built in to Judaism as well, but they do not try to convert anyone or to kill non-believers. Christians also oppressed non-believers in the past, calling them "pagans" and "heretics" and other derogatory terms, and even burning non-believers at the stake, but that is not a central part of the religion or something that Jesus advocated.
1715   gabbar   2022 Oct 30, 6:12am  

Patrick says


I think Islam is a kind of mind-virus which propagates by killing those who reject it and loving those who accept it.

Maybe all religions are like that to some degree, but Islam is quite extreme in the distinction between believer and non-believer.

Dislike for outsiders is built in to Judaism as well, but they do not try to convert anyone or to kill non-believers. Christians also oppressed non-believers in the past, calling them "pagans" and "heretics" and other derogatory terms, and even burning non-believers at the stake, but that is not a central part of the religion or something that Jesus advocated.




Christians in the US have reformed and made progress towards humanism. Even most educated Muslims are suspect to this mind virus, this religion finds it impossible to coexist with any other religion.
1717   Patrick   2022 Nov 13, 8:01pm  

https://www.christianpost.com/news/nigeria-4000-christians-killed-over-2300-abducted-this-year.html


Islamic jihadist groups in Nigeria are responsible for killing at least 4,000 Christians and abducting more than 2,300 other Christians in the first 10 months of this year alone, according to a report released this week by the International Society for Civil Liberties and Rule of Law.


And the number of Christians murdering Muslims? I think it's pretty much zero.
1719   gabbar   2022 Nov 22, 11:00am  

Trump was right in banning Muslim immigrants.
1720   FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden   2022 Nov 22, 11:08am  

Muslims are right about gays.

groomers deserve hanging
1721   richwicks   2022 Nov 22, 11:17am  

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

Muslims are right about gays.

some guy shot a gay club and it disappeared from news fast, was he muslim?


The murderer was Anderson Lee Aldrich. Apparently he is the grandson of Randy Voepel.

https://www.ibtimes.sg/who-anderson-lee-aldrich-colorado-gay-club-shooting-suspect-idd-grandson-republican-politician-67803

https://ad71.asmrc.org/
1722   HeadSet   2022 Nov 22, 12:19pm  

richwicks says


The murderer was Anderson Lee Aldrich. Apparently he is the grandson of Randy Voepel.

Amazing. A propaganda piece that ties that 300lb idiot shooter to the J6 protests.
1723   gabbar   2022 Nov 22, 3:49pm  

"So you being a Muslim, you have to fix a target. There will be no House of Commons. From that White House to this Black House, we know we have to dismantle it."
"Muslims must grow in strength... then take over."
Speaking at the Ahl-e-Hadith mosque, in Derby, Dr Mian tells his listeners: "You are in a situation in which you have to live like a state-within-a-state - until you take over".
Green Lane mosque says it is a centre for "interfaith communication and dialogue", welcoming people of all religions and cultures. But in front of a Muslim-only audience, Abu Usamah says that Jews and Christians were "enemies" to Muslims. He goes on to condemn the kuffaar - infidels or non-believers.
"No one loves the kuffaar, not a single person here loves the kuffaar," he rants. "We hate the kuffaar!"

Link https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britains-new-preachers-of-hate-446268
1726   gabbar   2022 Dec 12, 5:37pm  

Patrick says




The first one is not only not judged but respected.
1729   richwicks   2022 Dec 16, 4:47am  

If you guys don't realize what is happening, let me explain it to you.

Western countries are importing Muslim immigrants to attack their own native populations and to make the case for endless war against the Islamic nations.

They WANT people to hate Muslims. They are purposely creating a problem, to create a reaction and offer a solution.

The actual solution is stop making refugees by bombing their nations, and stop importing Muslims. That's simple and inexpensive, but really, our governments are at war with us, and besides, we're paying for the war against us.
1731   yawaraf   2022 Dec 20, 9:40am  

richwicks says

Western countries are importing Muslim immigrants to attack their own native populations and to make the case for endless war against the Islamic nations.

It's a simple and elegant explanation. Are you saying that this is the intent/policy of those who pull the strings?

Another explanation is that many people actually believe that all cultures and ideas are equivalent and of equal value.

I support not bombing random countries, however some places are shitholes and their inhabitants will try to escape even if we don't bomb them. Venezuela and Cuba come to mind.
1732   richwicks   2022 Dec 20, 10:02am  

yawaraf says

It's a simple and elegant explanation. Are you saying that this is the intent/policy of those who pull the strings?


Absolutely. These people aren't making errors, and they can see the results of their policies better than you or I can, yet they don't change their policies. Our government is at war with it's own population. The want the population in conflict with one another, not against them.

yawaraf says

Another explanation is that many people actually believe that all cultures and ideas are equivalent and of equal value.


No! They don't believe any of their bullshit. They know they are spouting propaganda. The US, for example, didn't go to war in Syria to "protect the people of Syria", they are there to exploit the nation and Israel is a big part of why the US is there. Israel wants to expand into the south of Syria.

yawaraf says

I support not bombing random countries, however some places are shitholes and their inhabitants will try to escape even if we don't bomb them. Venezuela and Cuba come to mind.


Venezuela has a legitimately elected leader. Nicolás Maduro WAS elected, and so was Hugo Chávez. I'm FAR from an expert on South America, but my understanding is that there is a racial and economic disparity in Venezuela and Maduro was a revolt against that. You can rightly point out that it's made things worse for a lot of people, but it's also made things better for a lot of people - or at least they believe that.

Cuba was controlled by the mafia, the reason that Fidel Castro came to power was that the Cubans were tired of the corruption. The island nation was RUTHLESSLY exploited by a small number of people. Is it worse off now than it was then? I don't know. It certainly could be improved, so could Venezuela.

I think a large part of the problem is that the US government is in collusion with criminals, rather than putting them under a thumb to control them. Cuba wouldn't have gone communist if it wasn't so harshly exploited. Venezuela is staying the way it is, because the US keeps fucking with them, and the people of Venezuela know that. Juan Guaido is an OBVIOUS US puppet and he's a fucking corrupt one.

The way to reform these countries is FIRST get rid of the scumbag assholes in OUR nation, and then to actually try to develop these nations, instead of just exploiting them. Make it a win/win situation, but the US plays only zero sum games now. If Maduro is replaced with Guaido, it will just be a complete mafia state that certain criminal in this nation will exploit, ruthlessly.

The problems the US has rests at home. It's a domestic problem, not a foreign one.
1738   richwicks   2022 Dec 26, 12:35pm  

gabbar says






It's "MEMRI" - they are the ones that spread the lie about "Ahmadinejad said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map!".

It's just a propaganda outfit for the Israeli government.
1739   AmericanKulak   2022 Dec 26, 12:56pm  

richwicks says


It's "MEMRI" - they are the ones that spread the lie about "Ahmadinejad said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map!".


It's a truth pill for what Media in the Middle East actually says amongst themselves, not the victimhood cloaking act they put on for EUrofools and Liberals. Y'know, the same people who are all for masking and mass immigration.

It would be trivial for Arabic/Farsi speakers to debunk, but they almost never ever do, and when they do it's a wordgame exercise over the "Strength" of a translated word. IE "Erase" vs. "Delete".

Iran launched missiles Erbil near the US Consulate and several Kurdish Centers and claimed it was retaliation against "Zionists"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LF0MlV7rCo

This story was NOT covered in the US MSM because of Biden-Obama's attempt to play nice with Iran.
1740   richwicks   2022 Dec 26, 1:36pm  

AmericanKulak says

richwicks says



It's "MEMRI" - they are the ones that spread the lie about "Ahmadinejad said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map!".


It's a truth pill for what Media in the Middle East actually says amongst themselves, not the victimhood cloaking act they put on for EUrofools and Liberals. Y'know, the same people who are all for masking and mass immigration.

It would be trivial for Arabic/Farsi speakers to debunk, but they almost never ever do, and when they do it's a wordgame exercise over the "Strength" of a translated word. IE "Erase" vs. "Delete".


Look, it's also fairly trivial to produce the original written Arabic or Farsi, and allow people to translate it word for word, even if they don't know the language.

I know full what what MEMRI is - it is run by Yigal Carmon. It is easy to produce a lie, and effort to debunk it and when you do, few people pay attention to it. I just ignore who lies. MEMRI isn't making mistakes, they are lying. Now, they MIGHT be telling the truth in a some number of instances, but it's not worth my time to pay attention to them. They aren't interested in informing the public, they are propagandists.

Jimmy Dore now makes a living just pointing out the bullshit of the "mainstream media" but there are so many lies, that it's "who cares?" to me at this point. I want to know what is going on, and I do that by eliminating people and organizations that lie. They're NOT making errors or mistakes, they are actively lying. MEMRI does this. CAMERA does this. GIYUS skews polling data. I know who not to trust - the Israeli government and the US government for that matter. I don't waste my time discrediting their bullshit. I just assume it's bullshit until it's proven otherwise. I'm 99% right doing this.

We just went through a "pandemic" didn't we? Well, that's what our government claims. Were they telling the truth? Why give credibility to incredible people like this?
1741   AmericanKulak   2022 Dec 26, 5:13pm  

Case in point:

AmericanKulak says

Iran launched missiles Erbil near the US Consulate and several Kurdish Centers and claimed it was retaliation against "Zionists"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LF0MlV7rCo

This story was NOT covered in the US MSM because of Biden-Obama's attempt to play nice with Iran.


The Obama III Regime and the CIA don't want the public to know Iran launched missiles into Iraq, so the media didn't cover it.
1742   gabbar   2022 Dec 27, 4:47am  

Members of religion of peace have been peacefully burning cars and destroying property in Paris, France.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UEoO6-mrVs
1745   gabbar   2022 Dec 29, 6:43pm  

Allah is more important than Dutch rules.
1746   gabbar   2022 Dec 31, 9:25am  

Islam means peace
1747   richwicks   2022 Dec 31, 3:27pm  

gabbar says

Islam means peace



Depends on the punishment. I wouldn't mind some public beatings of people like Kamala Harris, Hunter Biden, Barack Obama, etc.
1748   RWSGFY   2022 Dec 31, 3:33pm  

Notice the sudden ouburst of love for Islam on the part of @richwicks character. Why, you might ask? Easy: Iranian islamist fucks are supplying arms to the CCCP therefore they are GOOD guys no matter what they do extracurricurally.
1751   richwicks   2022 Dec 31, 6:35pm  

RWSGFY says





I don't understand it. Please explain.
1752   richwicks   2022 Dec 31, 6:41pm  

RWSGFY says


Notice the sudden outburst of love for Islam on the part of richwicks character. Why, you might ask?


Because it's a strawman attack.

Stop engaging in logical fallacies.

I simply do not care what goes on in other countries. It's not my problem, it's a problem of those countries. I regard the constant appeals to "hate Muslims" as being a very convenient appeal to emotion to support all of our stupid fucking wars that do nothing but hurt the United States and further solidifies support for governments that control the nations being attacked.

If we just left Iran alone, I'm quite confident that Iran's government would collapse - instead Iran's government uses the fact they are under attack as a way to garner support for their regime. The Mujahideen (now the Taleban) did this, Venezuela's government is doing this, Israel has been doing this forever - even manufacturing enemies, the US does this, even manufacturing enemies. It's astounding people don't recognize this trick. Create an external enemy to give people a binary choice - "support either US or THEM". "You're either with us, or with the terrorists". You're stupid if you fall for it at this point and you're negligent if you don't point it out.

If you think my reasoning is incorrect, explain how you think I'm incorrect so I can consider it. Perhaps I am?

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