patrick.net

I'm noticing lots of chatter on the itnterwebs about buying gold even from non-goldbugs lately.

Partly due to BRICS preparing a new gold backed currency but also due to a new bill (less than 2 weeks old) that was just submitted by a congress critter to put the $ back on the gold standard:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/9157?s=1&r=6

Trump had hoped to do this as well...

Patrick says

It's kind of bizarre how the dollar is doing so well against everything as the world turns to shit.

It's actually not. That's what raising interest rates does. But they won't go too far down that road as it wipes out the stock market.

I don't know, isn't the dollar basically gold anyway? We have the resources. We have the transportation (rail, road and waterway). We have the best military. We have mostly friendly neighbors. I get we're already in a recession basically, but could someone explain why someone wouldn't want a dollar?

Going to Mexico in a couple weeks. They will take my dollars and pay the exchange rate on the back end happily for tipping. Same with the Dominican. Same with Jamaica. Aruba. Cayman. Bahamas. Belize. The list goes on of places that I've gone that take a USD.

Mind you I'll bring Pesos from here because you'll get fleeced in MX exchanging $ to Peso. But that's for small vendors and excursions because they'll just make up the fucking exchange rate. Locals in these countries want USD. Why do you think we have a border crisis? They're not coming here for gold. They come here for the USD.

WookieMan says

but could someone explain why someone wouldn't want a dollar?

See the inflation rate, it's literally your time being taken from you, which is the ONLY thing of value in our system.

WookieMan says

The list goes on of places that I've gone that take a USD.

Yes, this is the way it works when your fiat is backing theirs.

WookieMan says

They come here for the USD.

They come here for free handouts, or because the CIA fucked up their country. People from outside the US know better than Americans how flimsy fiat is. That's why most of them don't open bank accounts, and many still use jewelry, coins, etc to store their wealth.

WookieMan says

I don't know, isn't the dollar ...(everything in between he wrote)... They come here for the USD.

Well said Wookie Man!

The Federal Reserve Note is not a dollar. A dollar is a specific weight of silver. It is a debt note, says it right on the paper. It's part of a system conceived to enslave us through inflation, leverage, lying and manipulation.

The Federal Reserve is a private central bank founded by the New York cartel in cooperation with foreign interests. A Federal Reserve Note isn't any more American than a Pound from the Bank of England, or a Ruble from the Bank of Russia. In fact, many of the same interests share ownership across all central banks.

But maybe I'm mis-understanding. You guys think illegals are really covering 40+ miles a day walking in sandals because they want to share in our debt? And because we have the reserve debt, nothing can possibly go wrong, so leverage away! Weimer, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Rome, those are just fantasies. Record homelessness, that's just a rumor. Record inflation and energy prices, just a mirage. It's Bush's fault, no it's Obama's, no it's Trump's, no it's Biden's. No common thread, no central bank printing us into the poor house. Just keep voting, things will change!

BTW, you need a second job. BTW, you can't afford meat. Eat ze bugs! Convert to CDBC's, they're so convenient you won't have to even decide what to buy, it's already decided for you! Take another booster, another germ warfare shot. Go die in Ukraine, in Afganistan, in Jordan, in Syria, in Yemen. Your kids are groomed to be sex slaves, your dreams are monitored, your brain is neuro-linked, you've joined the Borg. But hey, at least we had the FUCKING FEDERAL RESERVE DEBT NOTES! THAT FUCKING JUSTIFIES EVERYTHING!!!

Yes, I have a pre-FDR era $2 bill that says "Payable in Silver upon Demand"

Gold not getting killed, or at least the killing has paused for the time being.

Up above $1680, but still $350 below its pandemic peak. There was some wild spot price action around the latest Fed rate hike, but TBH I don't know if this latest increase is a general acknowledgement that inflation is here to stay, or "something else?"

"GOOD FOR THE GOOSE? The World Gold Council reported that in 2022’s third quarter central banks bought 399 tonnes of gold, almost double the previous record. Can somebody please explain to me — in the teeth of conventional financial advice — why buying gold is good for central banks but not for individuals? Or why they are buying so much right now? If gold is good for the Money Masters, wouldn’t it be good for me, too? You don’t reckon these experts would mislead us, do you?"

- Franklin Sanders

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iShares Silver Trust is up about 19% in last 3 weeks

When the dollar index (ticker: DXY) was bottoming in 2011 and 2021, silver and gold were peaking.

It will be interesting to see how silver and gold do when the Fed Funds rate peaks and the DXY steadies and drops slightly.

.

What drives the gold market?

interest rates? General fear of inflation?

Real, or paper? Paper is always driven by manipulation, because just like all fiat, you can leverage and print without having to actually do anything to earn more value. Real doesn't really change over time. The seeming fluctuation in value is due to fiat paper unwinding/collapsing, and economic instability. It is the traditional hedge against bad times, and that's never going to change.

Patrick says

What drives the gold market?

interest rates? General fear of inflation?

I would think it is investors thinking it's a safe haven against inflation (and/or a weakening dollar compared to other currencies). It is a very speculative asset so a lot of investing in gold may be emotional or fear based.

I don't think investors are buying up gold out of fear of societal collapse such as accumulating 1/10 or 1/4 ounce coins because it is expected to replace a failed fiat currency.

Tangible assets like bullets, land, water source, egg laying chickens, hundreds of pounds of corn feed, etc. are a lot more valuable. Also off-grid or homesteading skills are valuable.

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NuttBoxer says

"GOOD FOR THE GOOSE? The World Gold Council reported that in 2022’s third quarter central banks bought 399 tonnes of gold, almost double the previous record. Can somebody please explain to me — in the teeth of conventional financial advice — why buying gold is good for central banks but not for individuals? Or why they are buying so much right now? If gold is good for the Money Masters, wouldn’t it be good for me, too? You don’t reckon these experts would mislead us, do you?"

- Franklin Sanders

China is buying gold because the US has proven that it is totally unreliable. We blocked Russia's access to its Reserve Holdings and then went around confiscating Russian oligarchs' mansions and yachts. These foreigners incorrectly thought that the West was nations of laws. We proved to be every bit as lawless as a third world banana republic. China doesn't want its reserves to be under the same threat.

It makes sense for foreign central banks to buy gold given the lawlessness of the US. However, for US citizens it makes no sense as the government can and probably will outlaw ownership of gold and silver. The IRS will simply put out bounties for those who report the holders (felons).

Misc says

probably will outlaw ownership of gold and silver

That has to be when all hell breaks loose and the USA is a one party state and left wing authoritarian government.

I wonder if banning silver and gold would be a concern considering what else would take place :-/

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FDR stole peoples' gold back in the 30s. Nothing ever came of it.

Private ownership of gold was illegal until 1974 when Ford reinstated the "right" for private citizens to own it legally.

I'll just leave this here. Not as high as early in the plandemic, but certainly better than bitcoin:

My friend in Santa Cruz has thousands of dollars worth of silver coins he paid $45/ounce he would like to sell to you.

clambo says

worth of silver coins he paid $45/ounce he would like to sell to you.

Going rate is around $30 per ounce physical coins.

Is he selling or holding?

Dollar index (DXY) is reliably inverse to gold and silver. With DXY going down, then gold and silver should go up.

DXY appears to be finally cooling off.

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My friend is holding his silver coins.
I was just kidding about him selling.

clambo says

My friend in Santa Cruz has thousands of dollars worth of silver coins he paid $45/ounce he would like to sell to you.

This is off-topic. I'm talking about GOLD.

Just as a re-explanation, there used to be a forum called iTulip that @Patrick linked to in his site way back in the day. There was one poster, who went by the username of "Malcom" and whose avatar was the main character from "A Clockwork Orange." Over the ten or so years of iTulip's existence from 2007-2021, he would update the thread there of similar title as here.

I miss iTulip, and thanks @Patrick for exposing me to it way back in the 'naughties.

@Malcolm Are you still out there?

WookieMan says

I don't know, isn't the dollar basically gold anyway?

No it's not.

A company called the Federal Reserve has the ability to created as much "money" as they want and to buy anything they please. Their books are opaque.

If they, for example, want to make the stock of a company like, for example, Facebook go to the moon, they just buy stock. They can subsidize a company to bankrupt another, they can buy as much farmland as they please. They'll do this through agents of course, it won't be able to be tracked back to them. They can buy some worthless real estate for a 10,000,000 dollars and provide funds, or they can buy "artwork" from Hunter Biden, whatever.

This deprecates the dollar of course, but they hardly care about that.

They got to this position by promising that they would just hold gold, and deliver certificates for the gold they held. They produced more dollars than they actually had gold. They were created in 1913, and by 1933 they were caught. Instead of having them all hanged for counterfeiting, which used to be an offense where people caught doing it were executed, they just bribed the right people, and nothing happened other than to confiscate American's gold, who did not wrong. The dollar was revalued and remained convertible for FOREIGNERS but not Americans until 1971, because (again), the Federal Reserve continued to counterfeit money.

"As good as gold" referred to the US dollar when it was convertible, it's a MARKETING slogan. It was, up until 1971, better to own dollars than gold, because you made interest on dollars.

The Federal Reserve is just a criminal organization, and really, the US dollar is worthless. It only retains value as long as people PERCEIVE it has value. More and more of it is constantly being created, and there's no limit to how much can be created, or what rate it is created.

WookieMan says

They will take my dollars and pay the exchange rate on the back end happily for tipping. Same with the Dominican. Same with Jamaica. Aruba. Cayman. Bahamas. Belize.

Aruba, Jamaica, ooh I wanna take ya, Bermuda, Bahama, come on pretty mama, Key Largo, Montego, Baby why don't we go?

Patrick says

Malcolm Are you still out there?

I really liked him - he was ApocalypseFuck with a European sense of propriety.

richwicks says

I don't know, isn't the dollar basically gold anyway?

Chiming in with @richwicks.

After Nixon closed the gold convertibility window in the early '70's, the USD went through massive inflation, until the USA made an agreement with Saudi Arabia to buttress the USD by requiring that all transactions for oil MUST be paid for in dollars. Thus, the petrodollar was created. This served the USA just fine until 2008 or so.

The petrodollar system depends on the USA buying Saudi oil and the Saudis in turn buying Us Treasury bonds. THIS is why the USA supports the Saudis unequivocally - the Saudis are the anchor to the petrodollar system.

TL/DR: the dollar is now the petrodollar, and is based on oil, not gold.

Most people's debts are in dollars.

Dollars are therefore valuable. If you don't believe me just send me all of your worthless dollars.

Misc says

It makes sense for foreign central banks to buy gold given the lawlessness of the US. However, for US citizens it makes no sense as the government can and probably will outlaw ownership of gold and silver. The IRS will simply put out bounties for those who report the holders (felons).

The state has already won, so inject the micro-chips, sell your car, and eat ze bugs right?

The same logic could be used to give up on home gardens, guns, and wells.

ad says

It is a very speculative asset

Because anyone can print it out of thin air? Because it rises and falls thousands of dollars in a single day? I mean if you don't want speculation, forget Federal Reserve debt notes, and all assets who's value is tied to same. So stocks, bonds, housing. And you definitely don't go anywhere near digital coins.

It's like you guys have never read a single iota of market history before central banks...

Misc says

FDR stole peoples' gold back in the 30s. Nothing ever came of it.

Private ownership of gold was illegal until 1974 when Ford reinstated the "right" for private citizens to own it legally.

Nope, complete fabrication. People traded their gold in, but there was no confiscation from private citizens. Junk silver is literally silver dimes, nickels, and quarters issued until the 1950's. Tell me how you would confiscate my gold when you don't know who I am, or if I have any? Door-to-door, every house in America?

stereotomy says

This is off-topic. I'm talking about GOLD.

Silver is what's important, and what leads all trends in metals. That's why they went after silver first in the late 1800's.

stereotomy says

After Nixon closed the gold convertibility window in the early '70's

This was only between central banks. Federal Reserve debt notes stopped being redeemable in gold for the average citizen long before the 70's.

NuttBoxer says

Nope, complete fabrication. People traded their gold in, but there was no confiscation from private citizens.

Not exactly. Banks were not allowed to open safe deposit boxes without a revenue agent present to "exchange" their gold for greenbacks.

U.S. citizens were given until May 1 of 1933 to turn in their gold. In exchange, they would be compensated $20.67 per ounce. The penalties for refusing to turn in gold were set by an amendment of the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917 and were set as a fine of up to $10,000 and/or a prison sentence of up to ten years.

https://www.usgoldbureau.com/news/what-was-1933-gold-confiscation

Onvacation says

U.S. citizens were given until May 1 of 1933 to turn in their gold. In exchange, they would be compensated $20.67 per ounce. The penalties for refusing to turn in gold were set by an amendment of the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917 and were set as a fine of up to $10,000 and/or a prison sentence of up to ten years.

While this is correct, a key element is missing. Owners of gold were compelled to take their coins, bullion or gold certificates to a bank, where they were exchanged for $20.67 per ounce. Within a year, the official 'gold price' was set by FDR's government at $35 per ounce. Simple math; let's say that you owned 10,000 ounces of gold and exchanged that for the government's set price of $20.67. You would have been paid just shy of $207K in PAPER currency. Once the price of gold was set at $35, you WOULD have owned $350K in paper currency. In effect, the money that you were paid took a $143K hit in just one year, and FDR's action also diminished the actual value of the dollar by 40%.

And Democrats (and Republicans) have been devaluing our money ever since.

Onvacation says

Not exactly. Banks were not allowed to open safe deposit boxes without a revenue agent present to "exchange" their gold for greenbacks.

There's a lot of myth around this, and I think it's quite intentional. The same way central banks have pushed the phrase Death and taxes. If you're gold is in a big bank deposit box, you don't understand the purpose of gold. If it's not, how you gonna confiscate it?

https://www.cpmgroup.com/gbi-reports/gold-confiscation-truths-2022-10-14/

I stand corrected. The safety deposit box story is a myth.

But the executive order did extort everyone's accumulated gold under threat of fine and or imprisonment if they did not give it up. Good citizens complied while criminals kept their coins. My grandfather was pissed off at FDR for the rest of his life for this and other reasons.

FDR's Executive Order 6102 to stop the "hoarding" of gold:

Section 1. For the purposes of this regulation, the term "hoarding" means the withdrawal and withholding of gold coin, gold bullion or gold certificates from the recognized and customary channels of trade. The term "person" means any individual, partnership, association or corporation.

Section 2. All persons are hereby required to deliver on or before May 1, 1933, to a Federal Reserve Bank or a branch or agency thereof or to any member bank of the Federal Reserve System all gold coin, gold bullion and gold certificates now owned by them...
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Section 9. Whoever willfully violates any provision of this Executive Order or of these regulations or of any rule, regulation or license issued thereunder may be fined not more than $10,000, or, if a natural person, may be imprisoned for not more than ten years, or both; and any officer, director, or agent of any corporation who knowingly participates in any such violation may be punished by a like fine, imprisonment, or both.

Don't think they can't criminalize ownership of anything they want under "emergency powers".

Onvacation says

Don't think they can't criminalize ownership of anything they want under "emergency powers".

Oh they can, be we don't have the same population today as we did in the 1930's.

People who have gold and silver today have it, explicitly because they don't trust the government, and recognize it as being run by the corrupt and criminal.

They're not going to comply. I would seriously go to the Mariana trench and drop some unmarked, and heavy, boxes into the ocean before I'd send them off to this government.

Fact remains, people voluntarily turned their gold in. No one went door-to-door, no one pointed a gun at them.

If they outlaw guns, will you turn yours in? Point being government can't take what you don't give them, and don't tell them you have. So STFU and keep buying!

I guess the failures of SVB and their partners in grift (all told almost a trillion in the last several days) has caused gold to get a little feisty - just in time for the leprechauns on St. Patrick's Day:

"Premiums on silver are insane. Friday last US 90% coin at wholesale cost $3.05/oz over spot, today you can’t buy any at $6 over. Silver rounds climbed 40¢ today alone, and are disappearing. This is a buying panic worse than I’ve ever seen."

- Franklin Sanders, physical silver/gold dealer for over 40 years.