patrick.net

richwicks says

Just generate hydrogen gas from electrolysis. It's NOT efficient at all, but it burns very cleanly and the byproducts are just water, and perhaps some NO2.

NO2 would only be produced if the hydrogen was burned in an ICE that drew atmospheric air for the O2. Not an issue for a stove.

richwicks says

Just generate hydrogen gas from electrolysis. It's NOT efficient at all,

You got that right. But maybe as a green experiment using solar cells for the electricity.

richwicks says

This process creates both oxygen and hydrogen and never can the two mix. If you end up with a mixed gas, you basically have a bomb.

I did such electrolysis in chem class. The hydrogen will pop when lit and mixed with even a small amount of ambient air. We put smoldering objects into the O2 bottle and they would flame up. Nothing drastic there. We knew better than to mix the H2 and O2 and light it.

richwicks says

Since gas stoves are being eliminated, I have a solution

Is it just stoves or are they going to remove the gas meter from every house? Is propane going to be eliminated also? No more gas heat? No gas clothes driers? No propane for your fancy gas BBQ? No propane for cars and trucks? all wood burning stoves also eliminated? Are the best solutions always HIGH TECH?

richwicks says

There, a solution for chefs

The solution is that there wasn't really a problem in the first place. Leave my gas alone.

HeadSet says

You got that right. But maybe as a green experiment using solar cells for the electricity.

I'm talking about stuff for CHEFS. They want gas stoves. Hydrogen gas would burn a little differently, but they'd adjust to it.

Don't care about efficiency.

DhammaStep says

The solution is that there wasn't really a problem in the first place. Leave my gas alone.

And yep, it isn't a problem. It elevates CO2 levels a LITTLE bit in a home, but, they are just making another stupid regulation for no reason really. It's just to be a pain in the ass. I knew people that heated their whole home with kerosene heaters. that just vents directly in the home. Where you get into trouble is if you burn up enough oxygen, you start producing carbon monoxide. We always heard of somebody dying from it, but I never knew anybody - may have been urban legend.

Chefs tend to prefer to cook with gas, I think because they can more easily control the temperature, and heat up more quickly and reduce heat more quickly. From what I understand anyhow. I am not chef, but I'm competent as a cook.

richwicks says

HeadSet says

You got that right. But maybe as a green experiment using solar cells for the electricity.

I'm talking about stuff for CHEFS. They want gas stoves. Hydrogen gas would burn a little differently, but they'd adjust to it.

Don't care about efficiency.

I was talking about using the solar cells to make electricity for the electrolysis.

HeadSet says

I was talking about using the solar cells to make electricity for the electrolysis.

You would only want to make enough gas for gas on demand. I know it's not legal to store large amounts of compressed hydrogen gas.

You'd want basically a vapor locked tube where one side produces just hydrogen, and the other vents the oxygen. The closer the anode and cathode is to one another, they more efficient it is but again, you want to be careful not to mix the oxygen and hydrogen.

If you want solar cells, just dump the energy into the grid. What's the point of just using solar cells at all?

I know you need a lot of surface area for the anode and cathode and corrosion is a problem, so you need an inert metal.

In nuclear subs, they produce oxygen by electrolysis, and vent the hydrogen. They remove CO2 with a liquid that easily absorbs CO2, and (I think when heated?) will boil of the CO2 which is vented as well.

Why would you guys live in CA and even think about this? I'm cooking with gas. Propane or natural gas. No government has the authority to stop me. Enjoy. You'll get shot in the face if you try to take my gas.

I live in one of the top 5 worst states in the nation. You guys live in literally the worst. I don't get it. For what? Weather? Fuck family, that's baggage and a burden and you can make new friends. You can hike in the Smokies and be 4-5 hours from the beach and rent or own for 1/4 the cost of CA. Weather is literally the only reason to live in CA. You can't have a fucking gas stove or grill eventually?? Congrats on staying in the dumbest and most expensive state in the Country and world.

My camping chair causes me to get cancer according to CA. Let that soak in. I can make more and pay less in flyover country. I'm not a pussy and can handle cold weather. I really don't get it. I've been to tons of nicer places in other states and countries than CA. It's not special by any means. It's a bunch of Jewish egos controlling y'all. Enjoy.

And sorry if that's a harsh take, but it's reality.

How about making the hydrogen on demand. Then you could feed the oxygen to the combustion area and consume that at the same time.

For home use, I absolutely love my induction cooktop. 30 Amps x 240 volts x 95% efficiency is amazing. If you're cooking small to midsize quantities of food and using a pan of "only" 8-inch diameter, the induction cooktop simply puts more heat into the pan than natural gas is able, given the small surface area. Since the ceramic surface doesn't get particularly hot, nothing burns to it, making cleanup a breeze.

SunnyvaleCA says

For home use, I absolutely love my induction cooktop.

I like my gas STOVETOP. But all the stuff I've heard about them, the induction STOVETOP would be OK.

They're trying to distract folks by discussing "gas stoves". "Electric stoves", provided they have those induction type cooktops, would probably do just fine.

But the electric range OVEN is not a suitable replacement for cooking with gas. Cooking with an electric range oven SUCKS. It only produces radiant heat, a different concept than the heated combustion products from burning of gas diffusing into the stuff we're cooking.

If they take away my gas range oven from me I'll just use propane. Me and many others. There's gonna be lots of accidents, fires, etc with people having propane ovens in their homes.

WookieMan says

Fuck family, that's baggage and a burden

That's your family, not mine.

SunnyvaleCA says

How about making the hydrogen on demand. Then you could feed the oxygen to the combustion area and consume that at the same time.

I think that might be dangerous. If both aren't burned completely.

Air is about 20% oxygen anyhow. I dunno, you don't want to burn up all the oxygen in the room either, and then just leave nitrogen and trace amounts of water vapor and CO2. That's a sure way to die.

You have to keep the O2 and H2 separate until you combine to burn. Maybe it would be enough to vent the O2 into the kitchen area, but then you'd want to mix it, make certain there can't be a build up of O2 anywhere.

B.A.C.A.H. says

If they take away my gas range oven from me I'll just use propane. Me and many others. There's gonna be lots of accidents, fires, etc with people having propane ovens in their homes.

Propane just like natural gas is adulterated with a odor that is QUITE noticeable when it leaks.

Hydrogen is losing attention recently. Gas when leaking become dangerous for atmosphere.
Plug Power (hydrogen producer) as well as Nicola (hydrogen semi-truck producer), both stocks nose down recently with no light in tunnel for recovery.

REpro says

Hydrogen is losing attention recently. Gas when leaking become dangerous for atmosphere.
Plug Power (hydrogen producer) as well as Nicola (hydrogen semi-truck producer), both stocks nose down recently with no light in tunnel for recovery.

I'm not saying this is a good engineering solution. I'm saying gas is being outlawed and chefs don't want to move to electric, so this may be a solution.

B.A.C.A.H. says

WookieMan says

Fuck family, that's baggage and a burden

That's your family, not mine.

I'm glad to have known a unicorn. That's absolute bull shit and you know it. The amount people lie is staggering. I find it hilarious now. Sure.... your family is nice and neat and just plain happy. And why do you HAVE to live by them. Planes, trains and automobiles after all. You can still love them and not live in an over priced shit hole of needles and shit. I judge by what I see. Keep living the life I guess?

CA is near 3rd world country status outside of the super elite areas that no one on this forum can afford. These 3rd world sections have $1-3M homes that are shit. No disconnect there. Whatever. I know my move was the right one 100%. Staying because of family and weather is not logical, but whatever? You never tried it.

richwicks says

B.A.C.A.H. says

If they take away my gas range oven from me I'll just use propane. Me and many others. There's gonna be lots of accidents, fires, etc with people having propane ovens in their homes.

Propane just like natural gas is adulterated with a odor that is QUITE noticeable when it leaks.

I have a propane oven/stove-top and I don’t think I have ever once been afraid of having an accident. It’s all in how you use it, respect it. Really no different than natural gas.

ForcedTQ says

richwicks says

B.A.C.A.H. says

If they take away my gas range oven from me I'll just use propane. Me and many others. There's gonna be lots of accidents, fires, etc with people having propane ovens in their homes.

Propane just like natural gas is adulterated with a odor that is QUITE noticeable when it leaks.

I have a propane oven/stove-top and I don’t think I have ever once been afraid of having an accident. It’s all in how you use it, respect it. Really no different than natural gas.

How in the hell would you have any accident with natural gas or propane??? That's Darwin award material. That's like not knowing how to hook up a hose to a water spigot. If you're that dumb you deserve to die from an explosion if I'm being honest.

Edit/addition: I'm in agreement about your comment. I came across as harsh. I just find getting rid of one of the cleanest burning fuels is one of the dumbest propositions I've heard of in my life. Nah, use electric that burns coal and natural gas to create power. Great idea.... I swear these idiots don't understand how their life operates. You gonna dump that water heater?

B.A.C.A.H. says

If they take away my gas range oven from me I'll just use propane. Me and many others.

@"B.A.C.A.H." People will simply start making wood gas out of anything organic as well:

https://www.mofga.org/resources/green-building/wood-gasification/

Remember when Morning Joe and Mika said the plot to stop gas stoves was a right wing conspiracy theory?

AmericanKulak says

Remember when Morning Joe and Mika said the plot to stop gas stoves was a right wing conspiracy theory?

I don't even know who that is. And it's a bat shit crazy theory, that's what it is. Not trying to incite violence, but anyone wanting to ban natural gas would have some consequences coming is all I'll say. IL is a shit state, but they haven't gone as remotely full retard as CA apparently.

WookieMan says

How in the hell would you have any accident with natural gas or propane??? That's Darwin award material. That's like not knowing how to hook up a hose to a water spigot. If you're that dumb you deserve to die from an explosion if I'm being honest.

Yes.

You've made reference to such folks as tenants of properties you managed. Lots of them out there.

WookieMan says

I don't even know who that is. And it's a bat shit crazy theory, that's what it is.

Two twats on a morning show. Mika Brzezinski is the daughter of Zbigniew Brzezinski who is the democratic counterpart to Henry Kissinger. Basically, nobody you should listen to. Mika is just an airhead that got the job as propagandist because of who her father was,

Patrick says

People will simply start making wood gas out of anything organic as well:

Nope. This is in the same category as from the 1970s "If gas gets to a dollar a gallon people will convert their cars to run on alcohol from home stills."

WookieMan says

And it's a bat shit crazy theory, that's what it is. Not trying to incite violence, but anyone wanting to ban natural gas would have some consequences coming is all I'll say. IL is a shit state, but they haven't gone as remotely full retard as CA apparently.

The banning has progressed beyond the "theory" stage. It'll start in some cities banning on new construction. Then, owners of new construction (who have no gas) will complain about infrastructure costs and so gas line maintenance will be neglected until it is deemed a hazard and turned off for everyone.

Berkeley (of course) already banned gas hookups on new contruction in 2019!
https://www.fastcompany.com/90834734/gas-stoves-cities-states-ban

And of course, the marketing was just as expected:

In 2019, Berkeley, California, became the first city in the U.S. to change its building code to ban gas hookups in new buildings. It was a response to the climate emergency: Nearly a third of the city’s emissions came from natural gas.

B.A.C.A.H. says

But the electric range OVEN is not a suitable replacement for cooking with gas. Cooking with an electric range oven SUCKS. It only produces radiant heat, a different concept than the heated combustion products from burning of gas diffusing into the stuff we're cooking.

Ah. Interesting. I hardly use my oven and have hardly known anything but electric for ovens. (Parents "upgraded" to an electric oven in the 1980s.) I do compensate for electric oven by using an outdoor grill.

While I agree that gas ovens are different than electric ovens, I think that most people are fine with electric ovens. The big pushback is from those who like gas cooktops. But the people who like electric ovens will find common ground with you as, surly, any government bans will come for the ovens and the cooktops alike.

Just took a look and ... yup ... there's a demand for stoves with gas cooktop and electric (self cleaning) oven!
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ranges/dual-fuel-ranges/pcmcat196400050017.c?id=pcmcat196400050017

SunnyvaleCA says

While I agree that gas ovens are different than electric ovens, I think that most people are fine with electric ovens.

Completely different principle, radiant heat versus diffusion of hot gases. The radiant heat version sucks.

Stupid idiot California government.

Those of us who like to cook (bake) with gas, which besides cooking aficiondos would include just about every commercial line cook and chef, will switch to propane before using an range electric oven.... and as you pointed out, which I do often (do it all year in our mild climate) outdoor barbecuing. Jeez, they're worried about carbon emission so they create another reason for us to BBQ more often? Silly stupid government.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Jeez, they're worried about carbon emission so they create another reason for us to BBQ more often? Silly stupid government.

I don't think they are worried about carbon emissions. You still create carbon emissions in order to create electricity, and converting gas to electricity is at best 40% efficient.

It's said never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity, but I think there's an exception to the rule when government is involved. I simply don't believe they are this incompetent. I think their underlyings are incompetent, they are oblivious, but the people doing this are not. You don't have to be smart to realize that an power plant is only around 40% efficient in generating electricity, and that there's transmission losses and then there's the efficiency loss in converting the electricity into useful work. Any junior engineer, even a high school graduate should be able to realize this.

richwicks says

I don't think they are worried about carbon emissions. You still create carbon emissions in order to create electricity, and converting gas to electricity is at best 40% efficient.

It's said never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity, but I think there's an exception to the rule when government is involved. I simply don't believe they are this incompetent. I think their underlyings are incompetent, they are oblivious, but the people doing this are not. You don't have to be smart to realize that an power plant is only around 40% efficient in generating electricity, and that there's transmission losses and then there's the efficiency loss in converting the electricity into useful work. Any junior engineer, even a high school graduate should be able to realize this.

China burns a whole lot of coal to manufacture solar panels so that Californians can smugly proclaim their electrons are all carbon free!

SunnyvaleCA says

China burns a whole lot of coal to manufacture solar panels so that Californians can smugly proclaim their electrons are all carbon free!

I know.

I think solar panels might possibly produce more energy over their lifetime than they take to manufacture. I don't believe this is true for wind turbines.

I'm all for renewable energy, if it can be made workable, and I'm not convinced it is yet. We may be (probably are) using more fossil fuels at a greater rate just to get the semblance that we are moving toward renewables. It's very frustrating, because if I talk to another engineer about this, they just say something "well, in the FUTURE is will be more efficient to manufacture..." - yeah, MAYBE it will be.

It's like using fusion power, were more energy is spent to make the fusion reaction than you can recover from the fusion reaction. That's "green energy".

WookieMan says

Not trying to incite violence, but anyone wanting to ban natural gas would have some consequences coming is all I'll say.

California is already doing it:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-09-23/california-moves-to-ban-natural-gas-furnaces-and-heaters-by-2030

SunnyvaleCA says

I think that most people are fine with electric ovens. The big pushback is from those who like gas cooktops.

Around here, the upscale homes have a gas cooktop on the counter or island and a wall mounted electric double oven. I have never used a gas oven, but the electric oven handles tasks like a Thanksgiving turkey, pies and cakes, and even broiling teriyaki or other meats just fine. Homemade rolls also bake up great.

richwicks says

I think solar panels might possibly produce more energy over their lifetime than they take to manufacture.

I agree. I have seen several houses where solar panels cover part of a roof yet generate enough juice the net-zero the house. Life expectancy of 20 years.

Patrick says

California is already doing it:

They could do this the right way. Instead of a ban on gas water heaters, why not encourage new construction to use flash heaters at the use location? That is, only cold water is piped through the house and every sink or shower has a small electric flash heater for hot water. This would save from wasting water waiting for the hot water to come from the tank and would never run out. This concept has long been used in England in what they call "power showers."

Actually, the efficient way to do DHW is to pre-heat with waste heat, solar heat, and attic heat and store it in a substantially insulated tank. Did you know you can grab heat from the refrigerant in your AC before it hits the condenser coil via a gas to liquid heat exchanger.

Grab the heat out of your attic and ambient outside air with a heat pump when the temperature will help the temperature disposition of the house or is above the calculation to make it cheaper to run than the fuel source heat.

Then this is plumbed to through a condensing NG or LP tankless water heater that has return paths from each branch hotline. The return lines setup on a valve manifold to a return pump that activates when a user presses a button in the kitchen/bathroom or on their phone. This way there is hot water at the tap when you need it and it’s as efficient as possible. Insulate the piping as well.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Those of us who like to cook (bake) with gas, which besides cooking aficiondos would include just about every commercial line cook and chef, will switch to propane before using an range electric oven.... and as you pointed out, which I do often (do it all year in our mild climate) outdoor barbecuing. Jeez, they're worried about carbon emission so they create another reason for us to BBQ more often? Silly stupid government.

We have a double electric wall oven. I'm okay with that, but generally am not baking or heating things in the oven. Stovetop (with gas) or grill besides winter. Wife cooks in the oven as I'm actually doing it now so I'm lying to an extent. It's rare.

I'm not concerned about cooking though. Natural gas is one of the cleanest sources of fuel. Electric stovetops should have never been invented. Large propane tanks exist that last all year practically for household heating and cooking. Power goes out it can back up a generator and you can still cook food. Never be reliant 100% on an electric power grid.

Also have multiple grills. Stock up on charcoal generally Memorial Day and Labor Day weekends. I usually try to keep 6-10 bags of charcoal on hand. Still have a propane grill. Usually have 2-3 cans topped off an any time. I can use it to heat the house, yes it's an indoor safe propane heater, if the electric goes. I'd run immediately from any place that tries to stop natural gas usage. They can't stop propane, otherwise it will create a massive black market for it. Also at least a cord of firewood. You can cook, heat or do a lot a shit with wood. Never buy/rent a house without a wood burning fireplace if it gets 0ºF for a couple of days.

WookieMan says

Electric stovetops should have never been invented.

Ironic coming from rural person. The electric stovetops were part of the "all electric kitchen" that allowed rural homes to operate when the only utility available in the boonies was electricity. Those oil tanks work great for heat, but not for stoves.

HeadSet says

WookieMan says

Electric stovetops should have never been invented.

Ironic coming from rural person. The electric stovetops were part of the "all electric kitchen" that allowed rural homes to operate when the only utility available in the boonies was electricity. Those oil tanks work great for heat, but not for stoves.

I'm used to cooking on electric coils. I actually prefer it over induction heating but not over gas stovetops. Gas is the best, you can quickly cool and heat and you have pretty precise control of the heat with gas. Induction depends on what pan you are using, gas doesn't so much, other than the thickness of the pan. Electric coils have a ton of hysteresis of heat so it heats up slowly and and cools down slowly. With gas, turn the gas down, and it reduces the heat, with induction heating it's either all on or all off, with electric coils it's a middle between both, but not a good one, it's closer to induction heating.

When you remove a pan or a pot from an induction heater, you've basically turned the heat ENTIRELY off. You can't raise a pan or a pot and slightly heat it, you can with gas. I understand why chefs prefer it. You can control the heat pretty damned well. I'm not expert at it, but it's easier on gas than anything else. I hate induction stovetops.

HeadSet says

Patrick says

California is already doing it:

They could do this the right way. Instead of a ban on gas water heaters, why not encourage new construction to use flash heaters at the use location? That is, only cold water is piped through the house and every sink or shower has a small electric flash heater for hot water. This would save from wasting water waiting for the hot water to come from the tank and would never run out. This concept has long been used in England in what they call "power showers."

Germany was like that back in 1981, the first time I was there. It was quite a surprise to me that that worked just fine and you don't need a hot water tank at all.

HeadSet says

WookieMan says

Electric stovetops should have never been invented.

Ironic coming from rural person. The electric stovetops were part of the "all electric kitchen" that allowed rural homes to operate when the only utility available in the boonies was electricity. Those oil tanks work great for heat, but not for stoves.

I'm in a town of 2,000 in the middle of cornfields. Our area is a major center for natural gas pipelines given lake Michigan and having to get around it. My childhood home had a 36" pipeline 40' from my back door underground. We couldn't do an in ground pool even with proper permits. There was another one put in by my high school when I was going there. These are within 15 miles of each other. Major gas pipelines.

They have stations where they pipe it off locally. Remember gas in those lines are super pressurized. So they can get it to a town for a generally low up front cost in a 1" pipe. Once it hits the meter regulator going into your house the pressure is normalized. Otherwise you're turning your stove stop on and there's be a 3' flame.

I've done way too much research into gas... lol. Pool heaters will teach you a lot. 400k BTU. I'm a DYI guy. Pool heaters that size are $3k, then you generally are going to bury a 1" line depending on distance, maybe 1-1/2" with the regulated pressure. I had to contact the gas company to even start any of this. It's would have likely taken $10k for someone else to do it. Then you still pay for the gas and in IL that going to be $200-400/mo to heat a 26k gallon pool. So I stopped.

richwicks says

I'm used to cooking on electric coils. I actually prefer it over induction heating but not over gas stovetops. Gas is the best, you can quickly cool and heat and you have pretty precise control of the heat with gas. Induction depends on what pan you are using, gas doesn't so much, other than the thickness of the pan. Electric coils have a ton of hysteresis of heat so it heats up slowly and and cools down slowly. With gas, turn the gas down, and it reduces the heat, with induction heating it's either all on or all off, with electric coils it's a middle between both, but not a good one, it's closer to induction heating.

Agree with all this. They're older now, but my beef with the electric coils or the flat surfaces beyond cooking was a 3 or 4 year old kid putting their hand up there. I've seen it happen. They stay hot forever and unless you train them as early as possible you can walk away and 5 minutes later a kids or hell even an adult has 3rd degree burns on their hand. People use them as counter space. With gas you got the grates and those cool relatively quickly and you can't put a thing of smoked paprika on it, you have to use the counter.

We have a ton of nukes here in IL. But we also have a lot of gas power plants. I believe that's most of how CA gets their power if I recall correctly. I honestly wonder if that's the real reason for not allowing gas appliances? So PG&E or whatever your power company is gets all the gas to keep the lights on. Most people in the country know about your occasional electric issues out there. So if they siphon off the residential use they can keep the grid more stable? Just a thought. But being left coast they turn it into safety and health or some shit.

Either way propane is still good and cheap, at least here. We never had electric in any of my houses growing up or me as an adult, but stayed at places with. People would just get the propane tanks and refill them maybe twice a year. Also with winters here it's just more efficient to heat with gas. You guys generally don't deal with actual cold weather, so bumping the temp up a touch during a cold stretch with electric heaters isn't a big deal. Burning gas adds a touch of humidity to the air which make 10ºF dry days bearable.