patrick.net

Eman says

we need massive job losses

Eman says

job losses have been on the rise since October 2022

Good for you!

Folks pushed out of the housing market = more renters to exploit.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Eman says

we need massive job losses

Eman says

job losses have been on the rise since October 2022

Good for you!

Folks pushed out of the housing market = more renters to exploit.

I doubt he rents to unemployed folks. I wouldn't.

Rubicon says

EMAN,

“ Now, record low inventory, strict lending requirements for the last 1.5 decades, home builders are not over building, we need massive job losses to create distressed sales.”

Bingo! Until we see significant increases in unemployment we don’t need to worry about skyrocketing inventory.

Agree/disagree. At some point interest rates will make a difference if they get high enough. Historically they're not bad. We just grew up or lived with low interest rates most of our adult lives. Job losses and really high interest rates are the only thing that can bring it down in my opinion. I don't see either getting massively out of line. Flat line, maybe a slight decrease. Housing ain't the issue in this economy. I don't have an answer, but housing isn't gonna be the "thing" this time.

Rubicon says

Bingo! Until we see significant increases in unemployment we don’t need to worry about skyrocketing inventory.

Be cautious. CA housing affordability index hit 16% in the 2Q of 2023. It was 19% in 1Q. From a historical perspective, the CA housing market peaks at 17% and bottoms at 40% in past decades.

We don’t know what’s the catalyst for the next housing downturn, but history tends to rhyme itself. It’s NEVER different this time. As Charlie Munger said sometimes it’s best to sit around and twiddle our thumbs. This is likely one of those times.

Was talking to a neighbor who thinks that there are going to be massive fires that make thousands of people homeless. She believes that is why so many insurers are dropping coverage , not taking new customers.

I’m not saying I believe her but it sure would be interesting if thousands and thousands of people were suddenly homeless due to raging “wildfires”.

Eman says

As Charlie Munger said sometimes it’s best to sit around and twiddle our thumbs. This is likely one of those times.

No, don't listen to that old fool. Listen to Rubicon...it's always the right time to buy. No matter the price, rates, economic cycle or location. Buy, buy, buy. NOW

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mortgage-rates-top-7-hitting-21-year-high-160707969.html

Mortgage rates top 7%, hitting 21-year high

Rubicon says

GNL, i think you are finally getting it. Good job!

You are right. It’s always a great time to buy a house if you hold longterm and can comfortably afford the house!

If you bought during the peak of the Great Recession (peak was in 2006) you would do cartwheels today. 2006 is just a blip on the charts. If you buy in 2023 you will do cartwheels in 2043. Housing only goes up in the longterm.

I thought Eman was your hero. He's not a buyer right now.

Rubicon says

He already got several houses. I am not a buyer right now either. I also own several. Nobody said you should buy a house every year?

But if you don’t have a house and you plan on having one. And you meet the two criteria I gave: hold long term and can comfortably afford it, what’s stopping you from buying? other than the annual perma bear saying: it’s going to crash?

This is well said. Something got lost in the exchanges IMO. If one can afford to buy and hold long term, there’s no point of trying to buy at the bottom.

Since you have a job, you can afford to dollar cost average on your rentals. I need value-add properties to create equity and recycle my seed capital.

GNL says

Rubicon says

GNL, i think you are finally getting it. Good job!

You are right. It’s always a great time to buy a house if you hold longterm and can comfortably afford the house!

If you bought during the peak of the Great Recession (peak was in 2006) you would do cartwheels today. 2006 is just a blip on the charts. If you buy in 2023 you will do cartwheels in 2043. Housing only goes up in the longterm.

I thought Eman was your hero. He's not a buyer right now.

I’m not a buyer at the moment b/c the numbers don’t pencil out. The risk/reward is not there. I’m always a buyer and seller for the right price.

I get it guys. RE probably is one of the most assured paths to wealth. It can be done fairly quick or over the long term depending on 1. Risk tolerance 2. Intelligence and 3. Some luck. No one could have foreseen the last 3 years.

I've mentioned the family my daughter married into. Her husband's grandfather and his grandfather's brother built quite an empire. Seriously impressive. They were workaholics and only enjoyed a relatively small dollar figure of the success that resulted from it. What I've personally witnessed is what looks to me as unhappiness from those that inherited it. They don't work and there are many personal problems from criminal problems to drug problems to multiple divorces and baby daddies and nonstop worry over $$ etc. Unearned wealth is, in my experience, cancerous.

Well, some families and people handle things better I assume.

I will say that they've been very nice to me and my wife though.

GNL says

Unearned wealth is, in my experience, cancerous.

Correct. Every man who has been born poor but became successful has the issue of stopping his kids from being spoiled.

HeadSet says

GNL says

Unearned wealth is, in my experience, cancerous.

Correct. Every man who has been born poor but became successful has the issue of stopping his kids from being spoiled.

Did you hear what the founder of Hobby Lobby said/did? He gave his company to a charity because he didn't want to burden his kids with the wealth. Sounds crazy but that's as I heard it.

GNL says

Well, some families and people handle things better I assume.

Buffet said that he gave his kids enough money to do anything they wanted but not enough to do nothing at all.

RWSGFY says

Buffet said that he gave his kids enough money to do anything they wanted but not enough to do nothing at all.

That means absolutely nothing. Those Buffet kids need not worry about doing well in a career in order to afford common needs like a home, cars, medical care, or kid's schooling.

rates recently gone up, prices will go down in a few month as markets catch up. in our area average house price went down from about 420 to 380 so far. thinking of getting another rental prop. its not same as CA though, property taxes can go up and landlord pays for many utilities as they can be a lean on a property. and values don’t go up most of the time.

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

landlord pays for many utilities as they can be a lean on a property.

Luckily that is not the case in Virginia. The tenant I had to evict was over $1,000 due on the water bill and thus had the water shut off. All I had to do to get the water turned on after the tenant was removed was to give the water works a copy of the eviction notice. They turned the water on and filed a claim against the tenant.

HeadSet says

Those Buffet kids need not worry about doing well in a career in order to afford common needs like a home, cars, medical care, or kid's schooling.

With UPS drivers getting $170,000 package nobody really needs to worry about doing well in a career. =)) But with that kind of job one can get bored out of their fucking mind (while others find it perfectly ok).

What to do with this house? Rent at negative cash flow or sell for a big loss?

https://www.reddit.com/r/realestateinvesting/comments/15qyujp/what_to_do_with_this_house_rent_at_negative_cash/

Rubicon says

How’s the eviction process in Virginia? How long did it take from the time he was past due until you got the fucker out? Lots of details please! Thanks!

Virginia has a standard Landlord Tenant Act that applies everywhere in the state - a locality cannot form its own rules. The L-T Act is very fair. If the rent is not paid by the date it is due, the Landlord sends a 5 Day pay or quit notice. If not paid in 5 days, the Landlord can terminate the rental agreement and file will the court for eviction. It takes about a month to get the court date. If the tenant has not paid in full by the time you see the judge, the judge will authorize the sheriff to do the eviction. Scheduling with the sheriff usually takes a week. Then the sheriff meets the landlord at the house to throw out the tenants if they are still there. Then the sheriff watches while the landlord changes all the locks. At that point, the tenants have 24 hours to come by and get their stuff and after 24 hours, everything inside the house becomes the property of the landlord.

When you show up in court, the judge will check to see that you sent the proper 5-day notice (I had registered mail). If so, he will not only set the eviction, but he will also compile a judgement of any back rent that applies interest until paid. I did not use a lawyer as the judge did all the paperwork since it is very straight forward.

The landlord must use the courts for eviction and cannot degrade the premises in any way. Also, if the tenant shows up in court with a cashier's check for the rent owed, the eviction is halted and the remaining term of the lease applies. A tenant can only do this trick once, however. Also, when a tenant leaves at the end of a lease the landlord has 30 days to refund the deposit or give a detailed list of deductions for damages. If the landlord is even one day late refunding the deposit, the full deposit is due regardless of any damages.

zzyzzx says

What to do with this house? Rent at negative cash flow or sell for a big loss?

https://www.reddit.com/r/realestateinvesting/comments/15qyujp/what_to_do_with_this_house_rent_at_negative_cash/

The post has been deleted. Based on the comments, it seems like the owner has options. Not all is lost.

RWSGFY says

GNL says

Well, some families and people handle things better I assume.

Buffet said that he gave his kids enough money to do anything they wanted but not enough to do nothing at all.

Actually this was his wife’s idea to give the kids money early in their lives rather than wait until later. He started to give each give $100k/year in the mid 1990’s. That was a lot of money then IMO. In 2006 when his wife died, his daughter took over her funds, over $3B worth, and continued to do charity work based on what her mom wanted to do. Drawing a salary from a $3B fund is pretty nice for anyone. 😅

Eman says

RWSGFY says

GNL says

Well, some families and people handle things better I assume.

Buffet said that he gave his kids enough money to do anything they wanted but not enough to do nothing at all.

Actually this was his wife’s idea to give the kids money early in their lives rather than wait until later. He started to give each give $100k/year in the mid 1990’s. That was a lot of money then IMO. In 2006 when his wife died, his daughter took over her funds, over $3B worth, and continued to do charity work based on what her mom wanted to do. Drawing a salary from a $3B fund is pretty nice for anyone. 😅

Yeah, this is WAY more than enough to do ablolutely nothing. So the guy lied.

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

rates recently gone up, prices will go down in a few month as markets catch up. in our area average house price went down from about 420 to 380 so far. thinking of getting another rental prop. its not same as CA though, property taxes can go up and landlord pays for many utilities as they can be a lean on a property. and values don’t go up most of the time.

If there’s hardly any appreciation, what’s the point of buying rentals? The capex will absorb all your cash flow and more. Appreciation is the most passive income/equity that people don’t talk about. Without appreciation, people apply the 2% rule to buying rentals.

I wouldn’t say Buffett lied. “Enough” is all relative. He could have given each kid a million dollar per year and still wouldn’t run out of money ever, but he gave them $100k/year instead.

Eman says

he gave them $100k/year instead.

$100k/year, especially in 2006 and in Omaha, is plenty of money to sit around and do nothing.

Eman says

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

rates recently gone up, prices will go down in a few month as markets catch up. in our area average house price went down from about 420 to 380 so far. thinking of getting another rental prop. its not same as CA though, property taxes can go up and landlord pays for many utilities as they can be a lean on a property. and values don’t go up most of the time.

If there’s hardly any appreciation, what’s the point of buying rentals? The capex will absorb all your cash flow and more. Appreciation is the most passive income/equity that people don’t talk about. Without appreciation, people apply the 2% rule to buying rentals.

well there’s been some appreciation lately with many people fleeing big cities. i don’t know if it’ll last, but 2% is impossible here. 2,000 rent is what’s affordable here for a 400k house. way under 2 rule.

i just don’t see it appreciating, incomes here are low.

HeadSet says

Eman says

he gave them $100k/year instead.

$100k/year, especially in 2006 and in Omaha, is plenty of money to sit around and do nothing.

people don’t value what they don’t earn. i’ve known kids of wealthy who were collecting third a million a year and weren’t saving a penny of it. just spent it frivolously.

zzyzzx says

Oh wait...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4193596/

Been there, done that... have the Tshirt.

What could go wrong... just wait until the talking heads complain that loan are "racist"

zzyzzx says

Detroit? These loans will be for $10K tops. Nothing to see here. =))

I remember this loan program came out during the peak of the housing market last year and thought what could go wrong. Apparently, it’s mostly for low income areas with $10-$15k down payment.

“The move by one of the nation's largest lenders comes at a time when skyrocketing home prices have threatened to deepen the alarming divide between White homeownership and that of minorities.

Black homeownership stood at just 43.4% at the end of 2020, according to the most recent statistics available from the National Association of Realtors. That is lower than the rate a decade earlier.

The Hispanic homeownership rate has climbed to a record high of 51.1%, according to the NAR. However, both rates are still well below the White homeownership rate of 72.1%.

A year ago the Biden administration announced several recommendations to close the racial homeownership gap. Earlier this year, the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which regulates Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, unveiled a sweeping plan to address discrimination in access to homeownership.”

Interesting how it’s ALWAYS about "race" with Democrats.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/01/homes/bank-of-america-zero-down-mortgages/index.html

GNL says

No one could have foreseen the last 3 years.

Bill Gates did. Event 201. It was all plannned.

.

Even CNN is sounding the warning alarm about housing affordability with the +7% rate for the 30 year mortgage (reference: https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/20/homes/mortgage-rates-housing-affordability/index.html).

For every 1% increase in the 30 year rate, there should be a 10% drop in price.

Peak prices were around 4%, so prices would need to drop 30%. They've already dropped 14% (reference: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS).

A drop of 30% would correspond to prices in quarter 3 of 2020.

.

.

WookieMan says

Rubicon says

EMAN,

“ Now, record low inventory, strict lending requirements for the last 1.5 decades, home builders are not over building, we need massive job losses to create distressed sales.”

Bingo! Until we see significant increases in unemployment we don’t need to worry about skyrocketing inventory.

Agree/disagree. At some point interest rates will make a difference if they get high enough. Historically they're not bad. We just grew up or lived with low interest rates most of our adult lives. Job losses and really high interest rates are the only thing that can bring it down in my opinion. I don't see either getting massively out of line. Flat line, maybe a slight decrease. Housing ain't the issue in this economy. I don't have an answer, but housing isn't gonna be the "thing" this time.

another anecdotal - a neighbor of a friend in south (east) San Jose who is almost free from mortgage living in 3b, found a 4b on sale at down the street and decided to move and pay a 16k/mo! his rational was, 'we both are working' and can afford 4b!
I doubt if average family buy these shakes with some exceptions unless the price get corrected for the raising interest rates.

Rubicon says

There is no rule or law that says that a family with median income is supposed to afford a SFH.

That's right. Let them eat cake. We'll exploit them and they will like it.

ad says

.

Even CNN is sounding the warning alarm about housing affordability with the +7% rate for the 30 year mortgage (reference: https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/20/homes/mortgage-rates-housing-affordability/index.html).

For every 1% increase in the 30 year rate, there should be a 10% drop in price.

Peak prices were around 4%, so prices would need to drop 30%. They've already dropped 14% (reference: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS).

A drop of 30% would correspond to prices in quarter 3 of 2020.

.

.

Interest rates can affect housing sale prices some, but will not adjust down the price below a cost to build and procure land. The fact that the dollar keeps being devalued will bouy the floor. If rates get too bad and prices are too high the volume will just drop until there is enough capital looking to make it work again. You’re not going to be able to buy a livable house for a shit ton less than replacement cost just because interest rates are high. Sure the Foreclosures will probably be cheaper but that is the exception and not the rule.

“This is survival of the fittest.”

@Rubicon,

Did you hear this repeatedly from Robert Campbell? He’s into fitness, and he carried it over to real estate. I’m not a fan of his btw.