patrick.net

socal2 says

"Abbas later entered graduate studies at the Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow, where he earned a Candidate of Sciences degree (the Soviet equivalent of a PhD). His doctoral dissertation was The Other Side: The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas#:~:text=Abbas%20later%20entered%20graduate%20studies,and%20they%20had%20three%20sons.

LOL! I guess he was butthurt about the Grand Mufti of Al Aqsa and Jerusalem was a Hitler Ally who helped raise Muslim SS Auxillaries like Bosniak Muslim Scimitar Brigade.

ad says

They are statements by the Lehi that the Jewish people are the master race and the Arabs are inferior and should be driven out of Palestine.

This is bizarre, and probably just a coincidence, but Lehi was a Mormon prophet. Odd that it is the same as the acronym for the Stern Gang:

לח"י – לוחמי חרות ישראל Lohamei Herut Israel – Lehi, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel – Lehi"), often known pejoratively as the Stern Gang, was a Zionist paramilitary militant organization founded by Avraham ("Yair") Stern ...

Of course, the Stern Gang was quashed as was Kahane by the Israeli Government. UNLIKE Hamas and PIJ, PFLP, etc.

richwicks says

I think it's more recruitment rhetoric. That's what I mean.

I don't think the people at the top have any real beliefs, they're just tapping into beliefs to further their agenda for increased power.

It was the culture and beliefs of the Lehi such as Jews were the master race and the Arabs needed to be removed from Palestine.

Not everyone on the top just pretends to believe in the organization's platform and norms.

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AmericanKulak says

Kahane by the Israeli Government

Kahane co founded the Jewish Defense League.

He was assassinated by El Sayyid Nosair, an Egypitan-born American in New York City in November 1990 after he gave a speech.

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American Patriots are gathering to support Palestine!

/end of meme dump

AmericanKulak says

Yep, Arafat aka Agent Aref, born in Cairo like most of the PLO leadership almost all of whom were born outside "Palestine"

Yasser Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt in 1929 to his father Abdel Raouf al-Qudwa al-Husseini who was from Gaza City, and his mother Zahwa Abul Saud who was from Jerusalem.

AmericanKulak says

American Patriots are gathering to support Palestine!

The JDL was a terrorist organization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League

richwicks says

Yasser Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt in 1929 to his father Abdel Raouf al-Qudwa al-Husseini who was from Gaza City, and his mother Zahwa Abul Saud who was from Jerusalem.

His mother's mother was Egyptian, proving the "most Palestinians came due to Jewish investment and labor opportunities" line.
Arafat's father had inherited land in Egypt but was unable to win lawsuits to claim it back, I assume a family dispute.

Apparently except for a brief stay with his Uncle, Arafat grew up in Cairo. He attended university in Egypt and was a Student when the War of Liberation against Arab Invasion happened.

Since Arafat was born in Cairo I would assume on at least one side they had property in Egypt.

What year was Israel created?

richwicks says

The JDL was a terrorist organization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League

Freedom Fighters. You see, they also run Charities and represent an oppressed people so don't believe Media and State Department Propaganda :)

AmericanKulak says

What year was Israel created?

1948 with UN Resolution 181, and then this immediately led to civil war, Count Folke Bernadotte went to try to negotiate a peace, and he was murdered by Lehi. Berandotte was chosen in part for his work with the Red Cross. This led to UN Resolution 194 that called for repatriation of the Palestinians, and it was the first UN resolution that Israel violated.

It's been all fun and games ever since.

Israel is actually in violation of the Geneva Conventions by occupying land "illegally", but really who cares? Nobody follows treaties, and "International Law" is a joke with no teeth and all this paper and bullshit is just to pretend there are actual groups that follow principles that have supposedly been agreed upon, but they are only agreed upon until they become inconvenient. I'm certain that the US will be screaming that Russia is in violation of the Geneva Conventions in time.

None of this matters. It's just might makes right now. Nobody has any principles, and pretending they do, is foolish.

richwicks says

1948 with UN Resolution 181, and then this immediately led to civil war, Count Folke Bernadotte went to try to negotiate a peace, and he was murdered by Lehi. Berandotte was chosen in part for his work with the Red Cross. This led to UN Resolution 194 that called for repatriation of the Palestinians, and it was the first UN resolution that Israel violated.

No Arab state recognized UN Res 181. The PA only accepted it in 1988 when their sponsor the USSR dropped away and the world was changing. The British withdrew from their Mandate and declared they wouldn't enforce the UN mandate, and 5 Arab Nations invaded and annexed what they could including parts not given to Arabs under 181.

The original PLO founding documents recognize the West Bank as part of Jordan, which illegally annexed it without UN authorization when the British Withdrew. Jordan did NOT create another Arab Mandate, but annexed it. That means the PLO thought that...

BUT, it's all about who can hold it. More settlements, puppet governments that allow sale of land to Israelis, etc.

As for Folke Bernadotte, he was assassinated by Lehi extremists. One of the first acts of Israel after winning Independence was to charge the assassins, who were sentenced to prison with Irgun and Haganah generals testifying that their assassinations and attacks hindered the Cause. They were sentenced to years in prison but then a general amnesty for all political militants was passed. Their party got 1.2% of the vote and that was the end of that.

The best thing about the Internet bypassing the past is harder and harder.

The usual suspects are whinging about Gaza being bombed, but the images of the dead Dancers, kidnapped people, and the house-to-house slaughter is too fresh for people to buy the usual Pallywood Hamasbara.

"b-b-but, a buncha settlers yelled and screamed on the Temple Mount after months of harassment by Arabs back in the summer. Nobody died. That justified gunning down 1000 civilians!"

Nobody gives a fuck, no matter how much Mehta on PMSNBC or George Takei or Labourtards whinge.

Just 7 months ago:

March 14, 2023
The Palestinian armed group Hamas said on Tuesday that it sent a high-level delegation to Russia and held talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.
In an interview published on Hamas’ website, Saleh al-Arouri, deputy head of Hamas’ political bureau, said party leaders visited Russia and met Lavrov and that the visit was a reflection of Hamas’ weight among major global powers.
"The leadership of the movement visited Moscow and met Sergey Lavrov. It was an important visit that highlights the role of the movement with many global actors," Arouri said. He added that there might be another international Hamas trip "in the coming weeks." Arouri did not specify when the visit to Moscow took place, saying only that it happened "recently."
Commenting on the increasing Israeli attacks against Palestinians ahead of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, Arouri said the movement’s “patience is running out.”
Israeli-Palestinian tension has been rising in the West Bank as Israeli raids have intensified, leading to US warnings about the security situation. Israel has accused several West Bank groups including the Lion’s Den of being backed and funded by Hamas.
Meanwhile, Russian-Hamas relations have steadily grown. Russia has sought to increase its role in the Palestinian reconciliation dossier, with some Palestinians hoping it will break the US monopoly over the file that has been stalled for more than a decade.
Hamas officials have made several visits to the Russian capital, most recently in September of last year.
Moscow’s public support for Hamas also comes as its relations with Israel soured following its invasion of Ukraine last year. Israel has maintained a cautious stance in the war, but Israeli Foreign Minister Eli Cohen’s February visit to Kyiv marked a small shift as Israel grows more concerned about Moscow-Tehran military cooperation and the use of Iranian drones in Ukraine.

Read more: https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2023/03/hamas-says-leadership-visited-russia-met-sergey-lavrov#ixzz8FiFuKrIL

So?

AmericanKulak says

No Arab state recognized UN Res 181.

Why should they? The UN's mandate is for self determination, which means democratic vote. Palestinians (or ARABS if you prefer, who cares), were entirely excluded from any decision making process on the partition of Palestine. 181 is invalid. If it's valid, so it 194. In reality, there are no rules. It's all bullshit to give a veneer of legitimacy - there is no legitimacy at all.

AmericanKulak says

The British withdrew from their Mandate and declared they wouldn't enforce the UN mandate

Of course not. Atlee said openly that it would lead to a civil war, so they abstained from voting on 181 at all, and when it passed, well golly, civil war!!

This whole bullshit is the fault of the British in my opinion. They promised both the Zionists and the Palestinians they would become an independent nation. They lied to both.

AmericanKulak says

BUT, it's all about who can hold it. More settlements, puppet governments that allow sale of land to Israelis, etc.

Yep, it's just might makes right. There's no rules or legitimacy or agreements. Every agreement ever in "international law" is contradicted, and all we hear about are the "rules" that support the side of our government which is closely aligned with the Israeli government. As soon as somebody starts blathering on about the Balfour Declaration, I tell people to read it, and then also point out what right did the British have to make this promise?

Nobody reads it. The Balfour Declaration reads:

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Who cares? Israel only negotiates if force is used against them, there's no diplomatic solution, and the US will shit money into Israel until the US is fucking dead.

It's so pointless. It's Europe's last colony and the conflict is going to last forever. The US just loves to fucking shit out money everywhere, tons of opportunity for kickbacks with that, Europe doesn't really give a crap either way, Arab states don't care...

Absolutely. Palestinians only accept overwhelming force. Even after the UN forced Israel to accept the 67 Cease Fire on the outskirts of Damascus and while they were physically detonating by hand the 100s of SA-2s the Soviet Advisors set up on the WEST side of the Suez Canal, the Arabs went back a few weeks later and said No to any permanent peace.

Only giving this women a real reason to cry will fix this.

AmericanKulak says

This isn't true.

Find any reporting on MSNBC that favors the Palestinians. Here:

https://www.youtube.com/@msnbc

Find ONE. The idea that the US media defends the Palestinian side EVER, it never happens. This was the first issue to wake me up that MAYBE US "news" media is just propaganda, and that was 35 years ago.

The idea that the US "news" favors the Palestine side is delusional. Did you hear about this?

https://www.theinteldrop.org/2023/07/14/200palestinians-killed-by-israel-since-beginning-of-2023-data-center/

That was printed on July 14, 2023. Why didn't CNN report on it, or MSNBC, or CBS, or Fox, or anybody? And who the fuck knows if it's true anyhow? It's just a stream of endless lies, there is no attempt at truthful informative data.

I can tell you without even looking at any of the "news" in the US what the narrative already is, or will be. "Gaza attacked Israel for NO REASON AT ALL, they just hate Jews". Settlers put bullets in Palestinian's heads all the time, for fun. IDF does too. Who gives a shit?

richwicks says

Israel is actually in violation of the Geneva Conventions by occupying land "illegally", but really who cares?

Zionism was in effect for at least a hundred years before UN Resolution 181 was passed.

World War 2 just dramatically increased its rate as well as the exodus out of the Soviet Bloc countries.

Now you have two significantly different populations who hate each other at least the same as they did 100 years ago.

I agree it does not help that Israel seized land in the West Bank and have put settlements on it . Those settlements likely are heavily guarded by Israeli orthodox fundamentalists (versus the more secular kibbutz's near Gaza).

Just read that Israel is now relaxing its stringent gun control laws.

If I was in those kibbutz near Gaza, I would want to be my own police and security. They really underestimated their own security.

Can't rely on 911.

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ad says

Just read that Israel is now relaxing its stringent gun control laws.

I have heard a good point made, the people in locations where Israelis were murdered, they probably aren't coming back.

There's also been massive protests against the Israeli government going on for a long time in Israel. IF Israelis collectively think that the Israeli government invited this attack, and purposely let it happen, we may have a change in Israeli government policy.

Gaza really does put up with a lot of shit and humiliations. 100's of Palestinians are killed every year, IDF recorded putting a bullet in a kid's head, laughing about it and posting it to social media, settlers NEVER get prosecuted for killing Palestinians, they turn the water and electricity on and off to Gaza all the time, Israel has destroyed their infrastructure, Palestinians weren't given the "safe and effective life saving vaccine" but that was more about restrictions - Israel had some of the harshest restrictions on vaccine mandates to do stuff and this was a way to exclude Palestinians, there's roads in the West Bank which are for the exclusive use of Jewish settlers - there's a bunch of things like this, and Americans have no clue and when I talk about them, they don't believe it.

There's a lot of enmity between the two groups, and the Israeli government continually exacerbates it. This is an easy way to keep Likud in power. Israel isn't seriously threatened by the Palestinians and so long as this conflict continues, Israel gets plenty of "aid" money.

richwicks says

I have heard a good point made, the people and locations where Israelis were murdered, they probably aren't coming back.

That is what the Hamas terrorists want. Their terrorism had an effect.

If I was those kibbutz, I would make them like a fortress and also arm each resident above the age of 14. I would harden them like those settlements on the West Bank.

Yeah we give about the same as in the 1980's, about $3.8 billion annually.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-u-s-foreign-aid-to-israel-1949-present

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Yep, Israels GDP is about $488 billion. Don't get me wrong, they ain't gonna say no to free money, but it ain;t gonna make or break 'em.

ad says

That is what the Hamas terrorists want.

Yeah, I know. This is why Israel tries to make life hell for Palestinians as well - they want to get them to leave.

ad says

Yeah we give about the same as in the 1980's, about $3.8 billion annually.

You missed the "current U.S. dollars in millions".

That is NOT measured by CPI. If it was, social security would be "the same" today as it was in 1980.

Misc says

Yep, Israels GDP is about $488 billion. Don't get me wrong, they ain't gonna say no to free money, but it ain;t gonna make or break 'em.

The Israeli government budget is approx $100B/year.

So $3-4B loss would mean a some small mix of spending cuts or tax increases, about 3-4% of the budget, but far from the killing blow that detractors think it will be. Also it was around for 20 years before any substantial US Gov Aid, which started after 1967 to balance out the Soviets massive technical, advisory, and material (1000s of SAMs, Tanks, and MiGs) to Egypt and Syria.

And later, NORK and Soviet piloted missions into Israel - to their chagrin, as they had been razzing the Egyptian pilots yet got their asses beat just as bad.

LOL.

"If only Richard Nixon hadn't held us Pakistanis back in 1971, we Mighty Pakistanis would have been in Delhi in a day!" levels of delusion.

Also fun fact: If you think the Sufis are the peaceful, mystical version of Islam, guess what many Chechens practice?

AmericanKulak says

So $3-4B loss would mean a some small mix of spending cuts or tax increases, about 3-4% of the budget, but far from the killing blow that detractors think it will be.

The problem of aid isn't that Israel needs it, it's placing blood on the hands of Americans. If Israel doesn't need it, fine, let's get rid of it.

AID isn't aid. It's bribes. The US gives money to Israel, and then Israel gives money to US politicians and think tanks, and advocacy groups like AIPAC and god knows what - social media companies, the FIB, who knows?

Why do you think politicians are so eager to continue the Ukraine war? We all know why. Our politicians OPENLY engage in taking bribes. Congress won't even allow the money to be tracked, why do you think that is?

Why do people think Israel is any different? Nobody is different.

AmericanKulak says

"If only Richard Nixon hadn't held us Pakistanis back in 1971, we Mighty Pakistanis would have been in Delhi in a day!" levels of delusion.

Golda Mier actually said that if Israel were to fall, they'd use the "Samson Option" in 1973:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option#Deterrence_doctrine


There's a quite a bit of evidence that Israel was about to fall actually. Both the US and the USSR drew back, and so did the Arab states because many of them were under the thumb of the USSR.

I guess having this endless bloodshed is better than having a nuclear wasteland there. I bet if it were used, we'd have a REAL clash of civilizations. Too many nuts attach religious significance to the region.

Here is Samerra Khan, buddy buddy with noted Propagandist SyrianGirl.



Now they're fantasizing about Chechen Sufis coming to save Palestine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGIKctW0oK4

"Harden your Heart, Oh Putin"
"We say to China: Invade Taiwan!"
"We will marry Ukrainian Women!"

Note to skeptics: I got this from a thread full of Arab named commenters, and none contested the translation and were cheering the sentiment.

AmericanKulak says

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGIKctW0oK4

"Harden your Heart, Oh Putin"

Note to skeptics: I got this from a thread full of Arabs, and none contested the translation and were cheering the sentiment.

Why is the quality of the video so low? All the people there seem basically white to me. Who are they? What language is it in? Arabic? Where was the video taken?

MEMRI claiming to be non-partisan was hilarious though. It's run by Yigal Carmen. I'm not going to bother to give you the wikipedia entry.

It's a PR war, where each side seeks to claim to be the bigger victim, and provokes or allows atrocities for that reason.

It is not solvable. The only certain thing is that saying "Look at these atrocities and not those" is what both sides want.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1711771618757030320

AmericanKulak says

Also fun fact: If you think the Sufis are the peaceful, mystical version of Islam, guess what many Chechens practice?

Putin is going to unleash his Muslim jihadis to kill the Nazis in Israel and save Christianity or something.

PS. They were waffling on providing help to Ukraine all this time because their feeble-minded PMs (first Bennet and Netanyahu) were trying to "look into Pukin's eyes and see his soul there" and tiptoeing around to "not provoke the Soviets". How did it work for them? That beta shit haven't worked for anyone since fucking elem school, but yet grown man are still hoping "this time it's different".

Patrick says

It's a PR war, where each side seeks to claim to be the bigger victim, and provokes or allows atrocities for that reason.

It is not solvable. The only certain thing is that saying "Look at these atrocities and not those" is what both sides want.

Makes sense to me. I read, just today, that the Palestinian are not only landlocked but all borders are closed to an extent they cannot even leave. I assume that's why so many are calling Palestine an open air prison. Even if they attempt to leave by sea, the Israelis shoot to kill past 3 miles (maybe it's more. maybe less). This sounds really bad. It's no different than provoking someone to attack you imo. Now, was Palestian's land stolen or not?

Why does it seem like America has some kind of debt we owe to Israel? I would think it's the opposite.

Patrick says

It is not solvable. The only certain thing is that saying "Look at these atrocities and not those" is what both sides want.

Glenn Greenwald made a good point in his last night's coverage. BSD (Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions) are literally illegal in many of the states in the US, and any criticism of Israel is called "antisemitism" - so if there can be no peaceful protests to change this situation, what is left for the Palestinians to do?

We just saw it a few days ago.

Israel is only 10 million people, we put up with an AWFUL lot of bullshit from that tiny minority.