patrick.net

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ETOTALUSQ176N

see above link, as the estimate is about 146 million housing units in the United States

compare to a population of about 335 million

I assume the population figure includes illegal immigrants as that is used to determine number of Congressional seats, so California benefits from that

I am not sure if the housing units count includes people who may rent their basement.

For example, they converted their finished basement to its own apartment or accessory dwelling unit, and it does not show up on local property tax records. This is common in places like Nassau County (Long Island, NY).

Eman says

You’ve lost me Wookie. If I recalled correctly, you previously mentioned you and your wife made more than $100/hour. Now you claim you can make $500k in the panhandle no problem or CA? Maybe I misunderstood somewhere somehow?

You didn't read dude. I'm saying you can make $500k in the panhandle AND buy a house 10X's cheaper AND no state income taxes. You're the one that brought up $500k income.

Eman says

I travel 6-8 times a year, in state, out of state and out of the country. I don’t share this stuff because people call it “bragging”.

What? Talking about travel is bragging? Nah, I'll just talk about my real estate prowess? Jesus Christ dude the hypocrisy of what you said is hysterical. I'd rather hear about people's adventures and not a 20 unit building.

If your income is passive, traveling 6-8 times a year is a joke. You can work from anywhere. You still haven't mentioned where. It's not bragging. It's sharing experiences. I'd love to share my knowledge of the USIV's. Doing math on a building is for 7th graders.

Part of me is starting to think you're a fake if I'm being honest. Posting links to websites doesn't mean you bought or sold anything. Post a photo. All you do is fuck with people. I've lived the RE life and everyone is a liar. EVERYONE. I'm picking up on it here.

WookieMan says

I've lived the RE life and everyone is a liar. EVERYONE.

I am not in real estate but I don't disbelieve this statement. It ties into Patrick's sticker, "Debt is slavery"

gabbar says

WookieMan says

I've lived the RE life and everyone is a liar. EVERYONE.

I am not in real estate but I don't disbelieve this statement. It ties into Patrick's sticker, "Debt is slavery"

Debt is necessary. Fact of life. My issue with Eman's comment is travel is bragging and talking about real estate wins isn't bragging? Doesn't compute at all.

I'd rather teach people about new places to visit and not a building or property someone "supposedly" made money off of. No one here is buying the building or renting in it. You might go to a place a user here has mentioned and get some insight. If I went to Napa I'd reach out to users here. I know mell is in wine country now.

I don't need to know about a RE deal in CA that I'd never buy or deal with. Congrats on the gains, but that's a bigger brag than talking about travel. I don't think Eman travels. He hasn't even mentioned a location.

gabbar says

It ties into Patrick's sticker, "Debt is slavery"

You can make it work for you such as you get a 3% rate mortgage for 30 years instead of paying cash for around $200,000 townhome.

That $200,000 in cash can earn conservatively about 3% annual real return in a 60 bond/40 fund stocks while the townhome's average annual appreciation (after housing inflation) is 1%.

.

AD says

gabbar says

It ties into Patrick's sticker, "Debt is slavery"

You can make it work for you such as you get a 3% rate mortgage for 30 years instead of paying cash for around $200,000 townhome.

That $200,000 in cash can earn conservatively about 3% annual real return in a 60 bond/40 fund stocks while the townhome's average annual appreciation (after housing inflation) is 1%.

.

I think the "debt is slavery" refers to consumer debt. Using debt to buy rental properties or other income producing assets is outside the scope.

As far as your personal home, if you are in a 3% mortgage environment, then CD and other safe investments are paying like .5% or even less. Investing in financials, even your "conservative" fund, can go up, down, or sideways. If you can pay cash for the house, you are getting a guaranteed return on that 3%. Also note that mortgages are not without closing costs, as the typical borrower must pay an origination fee and points. Also, if you are buying from a builder, the price goes down if you pay cash. The "annual appreciation" is not a factor, since you get that whether you pay cash or borrow.

AD says

You can make it work for you such as you get a 3% rate mortgage for 30 years instead of paying cash for around $200,000 townhome.

That $200,000 in cash can earn conservatively about 3% annual real return in a 60 bond/40 fund stocks while the townhome's average annual appreciation (after housing inflation) is 1%.

Touche. Maybe the problem is the way I was brought up, in a slightly different culture. I understand what you are saying though.

gabbar says

AD says

You can make it work for you such as you get a 3% rate mortgage for 30 years instead of paying cash for around $200,000 townhome.

That $200,000 in cash can earn conservatively about 3% annual real return in a 60 bond/40 fund stocks while the townhome's average annual appreciation (after housing inflation) is 1%.

Touche. Maybe the problem is the way I was brought up, in a slightly different culture. I understand what you are saying though.

Please elaborate more as far as your culture and the way you were brought up.

I have seen before whereas someone gets a credit card loan of $15,000 for 0% for 12 months and invests that money in something relatively safe earnings 5% in one year.

.

AD says

There are plenty of shithole countries where the rich are the only ones who can afford to buy decent homes.

California is identical to one of them in regards to this matter, Mister Eman

WookieMan says

a bigger brag than talking about travel. I don't think Eman travels. He hasn't even mentioned a location.

I've been to lots of places in different parts of the world. Within the protective bubble of being a tourist, or being a Road Warrior in "Tech", we feel "right at home" in those protective bubbles. Those sorts of travel aren't impactful at all to our world views except for fun and maybe some confirmation bias.

Much more diversity to see just traveling to sh*thole locales near home, for me in Northern California, including neighbor'hoods of slummy section eight walk up apartments and SFH's with bars on windows, both types where Prop-13 landlords exploit folks, and if they're section 8, exploit taxpayers too. Right here at home. Some of these within walking distance of residences of E-man's billionaires.

We don't need no Cool-And-Hip Jet-Setting to "travel the world".

I did more eye-opening "traveling" driving for meals on wheels in my own community, than I ever did with my Cool-And-Hip Tourism or elite Techie Road Warrioring.

WookieMan says

I think there's a disconnect on the discussion. I can make $500k in the panhandle no problem or CA. I can get this house for 70% less than it would be in CA. Good climate. Slight hurricane risk. No earthquakes. And the BIGGIE. NO INCOME TAX.

This was what you wrote. That was why I said you lost me, and you said I didn’t read. 🤔

Wookie proved that he knows everything…again.

Whenever I travel, there must be a purpose, be it to visit relatives, for business, for the kids, or to watch tennis tournaments. I don’t travel to “relax”. I can do that right here at home or plenty of places in the Bay Area. The ocean, the Bay, the mountains, the hills, they’re all right here with great places to eat.

I see the ladies in my sphere tend to travel for bragging rights. I tag along, but don’t enjoy it most of the time.

This site used to be a real estate site. We used to talk about real estate. We shared how to get deals, cycle of the housing market, etc…I share what I know for the benefits of the readers who may choose to go down the real estate path and gain financial freedom, or build wealth. I don’t make a nickel from anyone. Feel offended with my posts, don’t have to read them.

It’s interesting for calling me a liar while someone on this site offered to invest half a mil with me. 🤔

gabbar says

WookieMan says

I've lived the RE life and everyone is a liar. EVERYONE.

I am not in real estate but I don't disbelieve this statement. It ties into Patrick's sticker, "Debt is slavery"

I’ve witnessed both sides actually. It seems like where you and Wookie reside, there are only crooked agents and brokers. What does this make your area then? 😬

AD says

Eman says

AD, how many Patneters do you recall who called CA a shithole?

I think GNL and Wookie, for starters

I think Patrick and Rich Wicks also have made comments about it being a shithole.

.

It’s interesting people who don’t live here call CA a shithole. If the people who live here call it a shithole while they still live here, what would that say about them? What a miserable way to go through life. We only have once chance at this life. Make it worth it.

I love my life. I love my wife. I love my family, and I love this country.

B.A.C.A.H. says

AD says

There are plenty of shithole countries where the rich are the only ones who can afford to buy decent homes.

California is identical to one of them in regards to this matter, Mister Eman

Eman says

It’s interesting people who don’t live here call CA a shithole.

And people who do live here call it that too. Not just me. Ask Ceffer.

I am a lifelong resident of the sh*thole California Republic. It's the only home I've known, I still love living here, because of family and friends and the amenities that I can enjoy as a retiree.

And it's a sh*thole, homie.

B.A.C.A.H. says

B.A.C.A.H. says

AD says

There are plenty of shithole countries where the rich are the only ones who can afford to buy decent homes.

California is identical to one of them in regards to this matter, Mister Eman

Eman says

It’s interesting people who don’t live here call CA a shithole.

And people who do live here call it that too. Not just me. Ask Ceffer.

I am a lifelong resident of the shthole California Republic. It's the only home I've known, I still love living here, because of family and friends and the amenities that I can enjoy as a retiree.

And it's a shthole, homie.

Is the Bay Area a shithole to you, or only San Jose, where you live, or the entire state? When did it become a shithole, or has it always been one? Just curious.

I like Eman, he is always willing to talk. That's also why I like Wookie, Patrick, Richwicks etc.

Eman says

Is the Bay Area a shithole to you, or only San Jose, where you live, or the entire state? When did it become a shithole, or has it always been one? Just curious.

Lifelong resident, homie. I got homies all over the state, been all over. It mostly looks like the Bay Area does minus the elites you cite. LA's got it's elites, too. Lower cost of living outside our Elite Cool And Hip Bay Area scales with the wages.

Like you, I like living in my sh*thole. But unlike you, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it. I don't need to prove nuthin to others, "back home" (oops, this is "back home" for me) nor to others anywhere else, nor even inside my own mind to my own self.

I think Ceffer would share some of my thoughts in this regard.

GNL says

I like Eman, he is always willing to talk. That's also why I like Wookie, Patrick, Richwicks etc.

Talk about willing to talk. I used my real name when I was on BiggerPockets (BP). Out of nowhere, I got a couple text messages like this late last year. Crazy. Just have to pay it forward.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Eman says

Is the Bay Area a shithole to you, or only San Jose, where you live, or the entire state? When did it become a shithole, or has it always been one? Just curious.

Lifelong resident, homie. I got homies all over the state, been all over. It mostly looks like the Bay Area does minus the elites you cite. LA's got it's elites, too. Lower cost of living outside our Elite Cool And Hip Bay Area scales with the wages.

Like you, I like living in my sh*thole. But unlike you, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it. I don't need to prove nuthin to others, "back home" (oops, this is "back home" for me) nor to others anywhere else, nor even inside my own mind to my own self.

I think Ceffer would share some of my thoughts in this regard.

I don’t have any chip on my shoulder. Being around various real estate groups/meetups, it seems like everyone wants out of their W2. I was fortunate enough to find a mentor when I started out. I was fortunate enough to get out of the W2 life. My mentor believes in sharing and paying it forward so I’m continuing the tradition as the folks before me.

In this REI community, we’re bonded together by the same goal. That is to gain financial freedom, get out of the W2 life and spend our time however we wish. We don’t sell anything. We share knowledge. Friendships turn into partnerships. In fact, some have found love in this circle.

I’ve learned that life is a mirror of ourselves. I’ve also learned that our mind is powerful. If we think we can, or can’t, we’re both right. Thanks Mr. Henry Ford. The Bay Area specifically, and CA generally, are not perfect, but they’re far from shitholes IMO. The politics definitely suck though.

Another example of blaming the "market" for a government caused event. That "unlimited capital" comes from low down government loans and other subsidies. Take away government backed loans and houses would return to being bought as shelters. If people had to save up a 20% down payment, then houses would be more modest and practical. Also, would not need an inflation hedge if the government did not overspend and print every year.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Like you, I like living in my sh*thole. But unlike you, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it. I don't need to prove nuthin to others, "back home" (oops, this is "back home" for me) nor to others anywhere else, nor even inside my own mind to my own self.

I think Ceffer would share some of my thoughts in this regard.

I don't shit on CA residents. I'm 1,500 miles away or whatever. I honestly feel bad for you guys. Some are tied to the state because of family and that's important and I respect that. Being from a similar state and probably better on paper I feel the pain. So i travel.

I live exponentially cheaper than a CA resident. So I can drop $20k/yr on travel and see new things. Plus my family is here. It's a win win. Cost of living is sooooooo much lower and that's in a blue state. I don't really care about weather. I just went fly fishing in Montana in the winter. Snowboarding. Hikes on ice. I could have gone to the beach. I have options to have my fun because I don't live in an expensive shit hole socially. Weather ain't worth it is all I'm saying and the politics and other shit that goes along with it.

Isn't it also tough to leave California because they find ways to tax you even after you've left? Fuck that.

GNL says

Isn't it also tough to leave California because they find ways to tax you even after you've left? Fuck that.

I've heard that, but I don't know that to be fact. You could be right though. I've heard it enough to believe it.

13% top end is pure retardation on income taxes. NYC is close with city taxes, so not picking on CA. Either way it doesn't make sense to live there. I get the climate, but I'm not dropping $30k for climate.

https://youtu.be/24iaGxbICH8?si=8F_AEny3x4M2M5Yo

B.A.C.A.H. says

Like you, I like living in my sh*thole. But unlike you, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it. I don't need to prove nuthin to others

Met a group of folks who live around Fremont yesterday. They are worried more lately as they see quite a number of illegals on the streets, larger crowed in places like Home-Depot parking lots. A friend of one person called 911 at 2:30am after someone knocking their door. Police advised him not to open the door and call back if anything happens. Most of them doesn't seems to be optimistic about the future in terms of safety. Very likely Bay Area will become bigger sh sooner than later on its trajectory though no commie would admit it.

GNL says

Isn't it also tough to leave California because they find ways to tax you even after you've left? Fuck that.

I moved away about 1.5 years ago and they aren't taxing me after I left. Although I owned no property in CA and paid partial taxes for the partial year I worked there.

Blue says

hey see quite a number of illegals on the streets, larger crowed in places like Home-Depot parking lots

Those are prospective tenants for our favorite landlord to exploit.

WookieMan says

I honestly feel bad for you guys.

Don't feel bad for us. It's a choice we make. We're not frogs simmering in a pot. If things get intolerable we can leave. WookieMan says

So I can drop $20k/yr on travel and see new things

For those who can afford to live here, we're a few hours drive away from every kind of recreation you can imagine except perhaps ice fishing. No flights required. From Bay Area, alpine snowboarding "day trips" are practical and doable and relatively affordable. My adult kids have season passes and do it a lot.

But that doesn't change we're living in a shthole. Adults packed into shtbox SFH's, working poor exploited by prop-13 landlords as they're packed into decades old walk up apartments, riverbanks and streets of our cities lined with homeless living under tarps, - yes we're a sh*thole. So what if a handful of billionaires reside here?

just_passing_through says

GNL says

Isn't it also tough to leave California because they find ways to tax you even after you've left? Fuck that.

I moved away about 1.5 years ago and they aren't taxing me after I left. Although I owned no property in CA and paid partial taxes for the partial year I worked there.

I'm not a know it all as some proclaim. But I do recall hearing about situations getting taxed after you leave CA. If you paid the taxes while living there I don't see how they could come after you. I've just heard stories though I'm not even near there. Think it has more to do with capital gains. W-2 you'd probably be fine.

WookieMan says

I'm not a know it all as some proclaim. But I do recall hearing about situations getting taxed after you leave CA. If you paid the taxes while living there I don't see how they could come after you. I've just heard stories though I'm not even near there. Think it has more to do with capital gains. W-2 you'd probably be fine.

I've heard that too. Also a wealth tax for people who are wealthy unlike me. Very very wealthy. Not sure what became of it all. Also something about taxing those uber wealthy for 10 years after they leave.

They tried to tax my dad's military retirement when he retired and moved back to Texas in the early 80s. He told them to eat $hit and they quit bothering him.

HeadSet says

Another example of blaming the "market" for a government caused event. That "unlimited capital" comes from low down government loans and other subsidies. Take away government backed loans and houses would return to being bought as shelters. If people had to save up a 20% down payment, then houses would be more modest and practical. Also, would not need an inflation hedge if the government did not overspend and print every year.

Also they lend money easily to real estate investors. Local governments should increase the property tax on short term rentals if they don't already have a bed or tourism tax.

VA mortgages require the buyer to live in the home and not be a landlord (for a certain period of time such as at least 2 years after purchase).

Yes VA mortgages allow closing costs to be included within the mortgage and does not require a down payment.

I am not sure what percentage of housing units which are tracked in St Louis Fed's website are short term or vacation rentals. Call it the AirBnB effect.
.

B.A.C.A.H. says

For those who can afford to live here, we're a few hours drive away from every kind of recreation you can imagine except perhaps ice fishing. No flights required. From Bay Area, alpine snowboarding "day trips" are practical and doable and relatively affordable. My adult kids have season passes and do it a lot.

You're right and semi wrong if I'm being honest. To be quick, at what cost? Massive taxes if you have the income? Congrats I guess?

I can fly round trip to Montana, California, Florida, Texas, Idaho, Washington, etc for $11.40 and snowboard (most those state) at the largest resort in the country and stay with buddies for free in 3 hours in MT. I pay half the taxes, which are still high(ish) and own a property that is 5x's less than what it would cost in CA. I can drive 2-3 hours to places with quality snowboarding and don't have to rely on natural snow. Sure it's shittier, but I can board November to April no problem. Huge snowmobile network. If I'm gonna have winter IL and WI are not bad places to be.

When it's dark it's dark in the winter. So a temperate climate is of no importance. I want warmth in the tropics. Mexico, USVI, BVI, Dominican, Jamaica, Aruba, Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, Puerto Rico, Florida, etc. Even if IL was California(ish) scenery and weather wise, I'd get the hell out of there. This time of year. 28 days till I get to Florida.

No interest in being in the same place 365 24/7. I've been. I know it. I've got plenty to do around here and it's easy enough for me to go somewhere else for cheap.

I don't care for mountains really. If one hasn't seen them, sure they look cool. I'm over that stage. I like car

just_passing_through says

He told them to eat $shit and they quit bothering him.

I don't think people get the effectiveness of this strategy. Especially if you know you're in the right and legally. They're trying to get the suckers that fall for it. Ah shit the government is coming after me..... but they can't. The weak will pay. That's the lure they're putting out there, fishing. Unfortunately it works and you can't call out the idiots this. They get upset.

WookieMan says

You're right and semi wrong

Which one that I wrote is wrong?
B.A.C.A.H. says

For those who can afford to live here, we're a few hours drive away from every kind of recreation you can imagine except perhaps ice fishing. No flights required

Is it because forgot to mention snorkeling in the tropics is not within a car drive? Ooops. My bad. Yes, we had to go in an airplane for those, in Caribbean and Pacific.

For those working blokes who might only take one spectacular vacation trip in their lives (yes, there are many, including some relatives of mine in Flyover Country), well, if they choose California or Southern California, snorkeling kelp beds at Catalina is not a bad consolation prize. Done that once with my kids. Nothing like the tropics of course.
WookieMan says

Massive taxes if you have the income?

Look, I am not sharing this to boast like our favorite Land-Lord does, - an economy with 90 struggling for every 10 who are thriving is a shithole economy, - but for those ten folks in the right gigs, the pay scales with the cost of living. This is very much third world economy shthole stuff.
The high taxes here are part of the cost of living. It scales.

WookieMan says

I can drive 2-3 hours to places with quality snowboarding and don't have to rely on natural snow.

Good for you. That's great. How does it make my comment about my kids wrong?

Certainly you're not calling me out as wrong for writing that our state is a shthole. I only mentioned about our economy approaching third world type, with a few winners (some of whom exploit the losers) and a huge majority of losers, and I mentioned about streets and rivers lined with homeless.

I did not mention about the falling apart infrastructure as the state's pension liabilities soar. Nor about public K-12 becoming a train wreck.

Which part of my earlier comment is wrong?

B.A.C.A.H. says

an economy with 90 struggling for every 10 who are thriving is a shithole economy, - but for those ten folks in the right gigs, the pay scales with the cost of living. This is very much third world economy shthole stuff.

I did not mention about the falling apart infrastructure as the state's pension liabilities soar. Nor about public K-12 becoming a train wreck.

Why did you not elaborate more about this in regards to Mexifornia (alias California) ? tell us about the solvency such as for CALPERS

And that is what Mister Eman is trying to avoid when discussing the California economy which is a shithole with "90 struggling for every 10 (Eman's and liberal douchebag tech execs)".

That is what I was stating to Eman that yeah its great for him and the grossly overachieving (and exploiting???) Asian immigrant landlord class as well as the isolated gated enclaves of white liberal, but overall its a two-tier economy (rich/very well off and the rest who struggle).

.

AD says

but overall its a two-tier economy (rich/very well off and the rest who struggle).

I think it's inevitable for the whole country at some point. This will bring more problems for everyone.

AD says

Why did you not elaborate more about this

Have at it, bro