patrick.net

krc says

Perhaps some other messaging is necessary. Ok - fine - let's really think deeper about abortion.

Woman has the "choice" and the man the responsibility. If she has an abortion he is off the hook.
If she has the child, it is his responsibility to support (and that really means supporting the mama).
Perhaps encouraging women to realize that they can have it all by simply having a child. From a pro-life position, play this out!
Run ads encouraging women to keep the child because that child will be supported. Support
legal foundations that jail deadbeat dads and really make it about a way of life: fooling some man
into unsafe sex. Etc... You can imagine the ads that could run.

Of course, most smart woman would abort the child of a dead beat, but if the father is reasonably
employed then why not have the baby? Or if government steps in and funds some basic level? Like we already do for welfare, etc...

It can work both ways as well- maybe men will realize they have ceded too much of their own reproductive rights
and that might cloud the issue to the point where there becomes a decision point: either men have
reproductive rights similar to women (right to not pay for the child if she chooses to have it and they are unmarried)
OR both men and women decide that pro-life places an equal burden on both parties. Women don't get the
choice, and the man must own up.

Pro-lifers might be upset if the decision is to allow men to "opt out" of unwanted pregnancies, but that also might
then discourage woman from getting pregnant to begin with... as well, pro-choice side might be upset because it really equalizes
the reproductive rights of both sexes.

Current pro life messaging, no matter how honorable the position, will be defeated. Words matter and
flinging words like "ban" instead of "some restrictions" provides no way for a moderate person to support.

Exactly! Bring back slut shaming!

krc says

Words matter and
flinging words like "ban" instead of "some restrictions" provides no way for a moderate person to support.

That does not matter. Half the population considers ANY restrictions on abortion as an attack on women's rights. And that "women's health" issue totally overrides any issues on the economy, illegals, and war. The GOP lost the 2022 midterms because of the Roe v Wade turnover by the courts and Linsay Graham saying it would be a Republican goal to nationalize an abortion ban. Dems just made big gains in Virginia and Ohio soley by defending unlimited abortion.

DhammaStep says

I was born and raised in a deep blue state and basically nothing will change most of their minds on the issue. There is absolutely no other issue that they're absolutely willing to kill for than abortion.

Abortion is a sacrament to 'Progressive' women. They hold it dear as a right of passage. You are not one of the true sisterhood until you have killed a fetus.
Until you approach menopause and it takes an extra bottle of wine to get through the night, while you rage at your ex's on Facebook.

https://babylonbee.com/cleanArticle/democrats-say-they-need-immigration-to-replace-all-the-democrats-they-aborted

https://notthebee.com/article/future-obgyn-says-she-will-leave-wisconsin-after-graduation-if-she-is-prevented-from-aborting-full-term-babies

socal2 says

Why can't pro-life people just say "Overturning Roe has just made America's abortion policies more like Europe's with some reasonable restrictions and less like Communist China and Stalinist North Korea".

The purpose of the "debate" is to stir up people to fight among one another.

Roe v. Wade is dead, it's been repealed. What has changed? Where are the protests and marches?

It was NEVER an issue.

People who are aborting their babies, are less likely to have children. People that don't are more likely to have children. The "problem" is solved. For 40 years there has been abortion allowed by federal mandate. Children, whether you believe this or not, adopt the morality and thinking of their parents, because their parents are BY FAR the most influential on them. The people that would have accepted ideas that would prevent them from having children, have either less children, or no children.

I just take a different tact, and encourage very left wing whacko women to abort all their pregnancies, because if they do, the world ends up in a better place, and it does.

richwicks says

I just take a different tact, and encourage very left wing whacko women to abort all their pregnancies, because if they do, the world ends up in a better place, and it does.

Unfortunately, low-income wacko lefties are paid by the government to breed.

HeadSet says

richwicks says

I just take a different tact, and encourage very left wing whacko women to abort all their pregnancies, because if they do, the world ends up in a better place, and it does.

Unfortunately, low-income wacko lefties are paid by the government to breed.

YOU allow your government to do this.

I like how people sit back and don't even bother to know what is going on, and if they do, they stay silent about it. As a result, we have an entirely criminal government because our society is composed of low iq morons, and silent collaborators.

richwicks says

YOU allow your government to do this.

I like how people sit back and don't even bother to know what is going on, and if they do, they stay silent about it. As a result, we have an entirely criminal government because our society is composed of low iq morons, and silent collaborators.

No we don't. Women are fickle. It's not government. Fine there's an option for abortion. It should have never been an option outside of rape or molestation. Fucking Ted down the street at 25 is not an excuse.

If I poke the wife this morning and it resulted in a kid I'm raising it. It's mine. I don't get why abortion is even a discussion. Be a god damn man and do the job. Be smart. Vasectomies exist. Close to getting mine...

We were all dumb kids once, but in this hyper sexualized society, I find it hard to believe that people can't seem to figure out how not to get knocked up in the first place.

Abortion, particularly as the pregnancy progresses beyond the first trimester is abhorrent. It's should not be seen as a defacto birth control measure. If any of the a above quotes from Margret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, was true, then she was clearly a psychopath. And deep down they are the ones promoting the pro abortion stance if not for some perverse ideology, then because it makes them money.

I'm not a woman. I will never identify as a woman. But I don't see how this is a women's rights issue in the 21 century. There are many avenues a woman has to avoid conceiving. This isn't the 1950a where these things weren't discussed.

Don't raw dog it with random Chads and your odds of having to even consider walking into a clinic drop dramatically.

I didn't expect this thread to get so much traction, but for whatever reason, it did.

GreaterNYCDude says

It's should not be seen as a defacto birth control measure.

Actually, abortion is the only true birth control - women only have an abortion to prevent a birth. Condoms. the pill, IUDs and foam are all conception control.

HeadSet says

HeadSet says

Condoms. the pill, IUDs and foam are all conception control.

Semantics. You got me. But I think you know what I meant.

WookieMan says

No we don't. Women are fickle. It's not government. Fine there's an option for abortion. It should have never been an option outside of rape or molestation. Fucking Ted down the street at 25 is not an excuse.

Who aborts their pregnancies?

I don't care about this situation.

Beyond religious belief, I think this is a non issue. Aborting a fetus at 6 weeks, it's not even developed a nervous system yet. Aborting at 9 months, that's either a sociopath, a psychopath, or a moron, and I don't want them contaminating the gene pool anyhow.

I'm extremely pragmatic about this.

You get the government you allow and this issue, I don't give a shit about.

richwicks says

Aborting a fetus at 6 weeks, it's not even developed a nervous system yet.

No religious bone in my body. You are literally completely fucked up mentally. Live the life. I have a nephew that's 12 years old. Black. He'd be the 7th abortion. You think that's fucking okay? Just because it was in the first trimester? As much as my situation has changed, that's a fucked up mind set. Just kill a kid because of "nervous system?" That's fucked up dude. Get some help.

GreaterNYCDude says

HeadSet says

HeadSet says

Condoms. the pill, IUDs and foam are all conception control.

Semantics. You got me. But I think you know what I meant.

Sorry, did not mean that as a dig at you. I was more referring to the women who argue "no one uses abortion is as birth control" when in fact the only reason one has an abortion is to prevent a birth. Abortion is only used when no one practiced conception control and they do not want to bother with offering up for adoption.

HeadSet says

Sorry, did not mean that as a dig at you. I was more referring to the women who argue "no one uses abortion is as birth control" when in fact the only reason one has an abortion is to prevent a birth. Abortion is only used when no one practiced conception control and they do not want to bother with offering up for adoption.

Bingo. I've lost 6 nephews or nieces because my SIL was a dip shit. I'm sure it tears her apart. I have no clue the feeling. My wife and I are the only ones that know about the abortions. I don't like the situation, but my life would be completely different without my nephew being a part of it.

Sex is fun. I don't understand chicks that allow dudes to cum in them if there's no condom. WTF did they think was gonna happen? Pull out and blast it on her chest. I never liked finishing inside outside of my 2nd kid. Nice doggystyle session. I finished and told her I got her. Now we have an 11 year old.

Frankly not sure why I did it. I personally wasn't ready for a 2nd kid. As witnessed here I'm a bit of a troll. Wouldn't change it though. Have two kids and a nephew I love. My wife's family is a shit show of shit overall. Wish is was better. Probably not the worst, but definitely not the best.

The pill doesn't prevent fertilization; rather, it prevents attachment to the uterine lining so that the fertilized egg passes out of the uterus and ends up on the pad/tampon. This is why the catholic church was opposed to the pill - it did not prevent fertilization/conception.

In fact, the whole "contraception" misnomer is bullshit when attributed to anything other than mechanical methods. Conception occurs no matter what variant of hormone-based method is used. Only diaphragms or condoms prevent sperm from meeting egg and conceiving a new potential human being.

Back around 10 years ago, more babies were aborted than born to black women in new jack city. Humanity as garbage . . . .

If you were to ask me, What's the biggest issues in this country right now, abortion wouldn't make my top 5. Probably my top ten, but not my top five. But the Supreme Court ruling from a couple years ago prompted the post, and it's still a hot topic.

In the end, any society is judged by how we treat the least among us. If we want to make this nation great again we need to balance our fundamental rights with responsibility.

That's the biggest problem in society these days. Few want to be accountable for their actions. It's a holdover from the Hippie if it feels good do it mentally of the 1960s. Look how well that's worked out.

Article highlighting how the FACE act has been used to prosecute people who try to help women entering abortion clinics. You might see a political party affiliation with the DOJ, I see an anti-human death cult.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/article/from-the-sidewalk-to-prison-the-story-of-pro-life-activists-outside-abortion-clinics-5580835?src_src=partner&src_cmp=ZeroHedge

Patrick says

Unfortunately, a vast number of women voters will interpret this as Republicans are a threat to women's rights.

WookieMan says

No religious bone in my body. You are literally completely fucked up mentally. Live the life. I have a nephew that's 12 years old. Black. He'd be the 7th abortion. You think that's fucking okay?

Yes, as much as I think using a condom, sponge, or diaphragm, or getting a vasectomy is. At 12 years old, that's not at ALL the same thing as he was at 6 weeks. At that point, he was a collection of cells so undifferentiated that it wasn't capable of any sort of consciousness or reaction to external stimuli.

WookieMan says

Just because it was in the first trimester? As much as my situation has changed, that's a fucked up mind set. Just kill a kid because of "nervous system?" That's fucked up dude. Get some help.

You can't possibly think that a 6th week old fetus is the same thing as a 12 year old kid.

Hey, why don't you encourage the mother to have MORE kids? The last one turned out well, right? The next one could be even better. What kind of monster of you to want to deprive the world of that opportunity?

richwicks says

You can't possibly think that a 6th week old fetus is the same thing as a 12 year old kid.

Yes, I do. And I'm not anti-abortion either. Voluntary abortion is not right. Rape and health reasons are completely valid for abortion. There are ways to make sure conception doesn't happen even without a condom. Pop a pill the next day. At that point there's no knowledge if the sperm made it to the egg, but you can stop it.

I'll put it more personal. You rescued dogs. Say you come home with a pregnant female dog (I wanted to say bitch) that you rescue. It's in poor health but could easily give birth in the time frame it's expected to live. You put the dog down or let it give birth? I'll bet money you'd wait it out to see if it had the puppies. And you'd raise them and get them into good homes. I have faith in you Rich. But abortion is terrible. I fucking hate Easter and don't have a religious bone in my body. But abortion is bad. Clearly it hasn't hit your life. I'm missing 6 nephews or nieces that I probably would have had to take care of. Skip my SIL's feelings. You don't know what you don't know.

This wasn't my life plan. I committed to my wife and family. I'm missing out on 6 kids that could uplift my family even though it's work and money. There were mistakes for sure. But have a woman that is in a family relationship with you come to you and cry in your arms about her abortions. I'm the only real man in her life. Her dad is dead. BIL hung himself. The other one is lazy white trash. Baby daddy is in prison. I'm the guy. And I still have to raise my kids.

I don't think people get the burden I bare. Not looking for sympathy, just acknowledge that people go through fucked up things. Abortion is mostly dumb. I'd have 6 more kids probably to take care of. Guess what, I'd love them all. They're dead. If you haven't lived it, you really don't have a right to talk about it. Stick to Iraq and Afghanistan.

richwicks says

You can't possibly think that a 6th week old fetus is the same thing as a 12 year old kid.

Life is life.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

richwicks says

You can't possibly think that a 6th week old fetus is the same thing as a 12 year old kid.

Life is life.

That's just foolish.

If you equate that the life of a human being at 11 years is the same as 3 months into a pregnancy, that's just silly.

You're just taking an absolute stance, an idealistic point of view, which is never reasonable.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Oh look, another screenshot instead of a reference to the ruling or any mention of it.

richwicks says

If you equate that the life of a human being at 11 years is the same as 3 months into a pregnancy, that's just silly.

What is the difference in terms of the right to not be killed?

Sure, they are at different stages of development, they might have different chances of surviving until adulthood, one is utterly dependent on its mother, but they are both human beings. I think that modern science makes a compelling argument that a new human being is created at conception. Where do you draw the line(s) to relax the prohibition against killing innocent humans?

yawaraf says

What is the difference in terms of the right to not be killed?

Because a human at 11 weeks of development doesn't even have a brain structure yet. It's more immoral to kill a mouse than it is to destroy that.

It works itself out anyhow. You want a world where women won't consider abortion? Let the ones that do abort their children.

There has been no outcry over the end of Roe versus Wade precisely because most people's ideas and beliefs are passed down by parents and the rabid pro abortion crowd had either no kids or much.less kids

It was a voluntary eugenics program. You can legislate what you think is morality or breed out immorality.

Given a choice, which do you prefer?
yawaraf says

I think that modern science makes a compelling argument that a new human being is created at conception. Where do you draw the line(s) to relax the prohibition against killing innocent humans?

I don't consider even 1/2 of adults human at this point and I'm not being flippant.

The nations criminal syndicate just compelled the entire nation to inject a poison into their bodies.. The cows and sheep don't even bleat.

I have tried my best to consider these things around me as humans and treat them with respect. The last 3 years has disabused me of any pretense any longer

Humans are very rare.

You may be right that abortionists are breeding themselves out. I am not concerned about laws, but about making a moral judgment.

You seem to make some strange assertions. Are you saying it's immoral to kill mice but it is not immoral to kill ½ of the adult human population?

As far as I know, in all societies killing innocent humans is prohibited. You say that some human beings should not have this protection. Which are those?

richwicks says

Because a human at 11 weeks of development doesn't even have a brain structure yet. It's more immoral to kill a mouse than it is to destroy that.

Oookay?

Have you ever had kids?

My kids (and all kids) didn't have much sentience or brain development for the first 3 months after they were born. All children up to several years are absolutely dependent on the parents for survival and would die within a few days if not provided food and shelter.

Frankly, I would rather have our abortion restrictions to be closer in line with most of Europe, as opposed to California, New York and Illinois that let abortions occur up to crowning for any reason - closer to what they do in North Korea and China.

yawaraf says

You may be right that abortionists are breeding themselves out. I am not concerned about laws, but about making a moral judgment.

I'm concerned about outcomes, exclusively. I only care about results. Who cares how you get the results you want?

yawaraf says

You seem to make some strange assertions. Are you saying it's immoral to kill mice but it is not immoral to kill ½ of the adult human population?

I'm saying it's less moral to kill a mouse than it is to kill an 11 week old fetus.

I'm also noting that most people simply aren't really people. They are just meat robots without a shred of consciousness at all, although they mimic it pretty well. I used to wonder just how 1930's Germany came into being, HOW could people allow that to happen (well, at least what I THOUGHT happened, it's a bit different than what we're told but anyhow...) - now I know. If our government said that Jewish people were spreading a disease and that the only way to prevent the spread of this deadly disease which turns out to be no worse than a mild cold was to confine them in concentration camps, 75% of the population would have done it, NO questions asked. Hitler attacked them as being anti-German, and traitors to the state of Germany, as well as being morally bankrupt - he went HIGH ground and didn't have to.

People are fucking stupid, and the more educated they are, the dumber they are. I have been denying this truth all my life thinking is what so fucking arrogant to even contemplate it can't POSSIBLY be right, but it is.

People have no morality, they have loyalty, and they substitute that for morality. The reason 1/2 the country argues that men can be women, and women are whatever an individual decides it is, is because the party dictates that, and they are loyal to their party. Now if the Republican party did something equally stupid, like claim we have to go to war in the middle east over a weapons of mass destruction program that frankly didn't matter if it existed or not, the Republicans would support it and they did.

People are subhman, most of them and I can't take it anymore. You can't reason with them.

In this discussion you are appealing to morality - well, good fucking luck with that! At most, you will reach 10% of the population. At most.

yawaraf says

As far as I know, in all societies killing innocent humans is prohibited. You say that some human beings should not have this protection. Which are those?

What are you talking about? Over 30,000 people have been killed in Gaza, 75% of them are women and children. Fuck off with this bullshit that "societies don't kill innocent people". We obviously do, and do it all the fucking time and you damned well know it. Our government just killed who knows how many people with a fraudulent vaccine - like anybody gives a shit.

Our nation killed about 1/2 million CHILDREN in Iraq with sanctions over a grueling course of 10 years, and when Hussein refused to abdicate, we went to war, and killed another 800,000 people - that's the real reason we went to war, and this after our nation was a fucking ally of Hussein the 1980's for 8 years as we egged on the Iran/Iraq War, funded it, and gave Iraq weapons of mass destruction we pretend to care about. Remember the "child soldiers of Iran" that our media whined and moaned about in the 1980's, that people PRETENDED to care about?

You're trying to appeal to morality. Good fucking luck with that.

My experience is that people don't have morality at all. Just call the kid the son of a terrorist or whatever. They don't really care.

socal2 says

Have you ever had kids?

Oh no. This world is too evil to have children. Your children can have it.

socal2 says

My kids (and all kids) didn't have much sentience or brain development for the first 3 months after they were born. All children up to several years are absolutely dependent on the parents for survival and would die within a few days if not provided food and shelter.

And this is part of the reason infanticide wasn't prohibited in several cultures. Apparently some of our more whacko states now.

socal2 says

Frankly, I would rather have our abortion restrictions to be closer in line with most of Europe, as opposed to California, New York and Illinois that let abortions occur up to crowning for any reason - closer to what they do in North Korea and China.

Frankly, I wish abortion could just be made unnecessary and it can be.

Here's a male contraceptive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_inhibition_of_sperm_under_guidance

Been used for decades in India, reversible, outpatient procedure, blocks the vas deferens from allowing sperm to pass. The FDA won't allow it in the United States because it would crater the current contraception companies built up around it. It will never be allowed.

We have solutions and have had solutions for DECADES. This is what vexes the SHIT out of me as an engineer, I have to hear all these people whining about these "problems" which had solutions 30 years ago. It's the same as "there outta be a law", when there IS a law, and the government just refuses to enforce it. Nobody gets angry that the law is just ignored, although they should.

There is a solution already made for almost EVERY problem, problems are simply manufactured today. We could be in a goddamned utopia if powerful people wanted it, and they don't.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

I really don't think anyone that doesn't have a kid should have an opinion on abortion in all reality. Not you UTF specifically as I don't know if you have kids.

Raising 3 humans now, 2 mine, one not mine. 6 of his brothers or sisters were killed by his mom. Kids change you and make you a better person. Work harder. My SIL took the easy way out. Rich doesn't understand. I get to raise #7. He made it. The other 6 were real. They're dead. If she had number 1 there likely wouldn't be 6 other dead kids. She'd have had to grow up.

For me this has nothing to do with religion. It's just simple human dignity. My SIL will always be a fucking piece of shit to me. I'll never respect her. She has baby remorse as a woman that killed so many. She sees her son. She knows she fucked up many times. She has to live with that. Ultimately it's not my body my choice at the end of the day. It's I fucked up and am not held accountable.

11 years without using contraceptives in any forms. No vasectomy. No condoms. It's not complicated. It's easy to not get pregnant and still have fun. There is no unwanted pregnancy the vast majority of time as shown with UTF's graph. There also is plan B pills. If you're feeling it and don't pull out, go to Target the next morning and have her pop one. That early you have no clue if there was conception. My bachelor buddies have them in their night stand.

I don't know, abortion is disgusting. I really don't think of you as a human if you support it outside of rape. Hell, I don't want a lot of people on this earth. Do I get a license to just kill them?