patrick.net

Ukraine, like many of the other members of the USSR, wasn't happy with the arrangement. Russians want to keep dominating the region although a shitload of countries want no part of Russia.

Whether I think the USA should help Ukraine or not, Russia is the agressor, not NATO.

The Pentagon has a sufficiently large budget and could take a piece of it to send help to Ukraine; Congress doesn't need to spend more money.

Individual European countries have whopped Russian ass before: Sweden, Poland with and without the Commonwealth, Germany, France, etc. Nevermind 4/5th of Europe in tandem.

clambo says

Europe developed an advanced socialist welfare state for its people, while the American taxpayer paid to defend them from the Soviets/Russians.

The war which NATO prepared for over decades has happened; Russia invaded Ukraine, which Putin perceived as becoming "Western".

The American taxpayers should be pissed off at the gigantic expense of making Europe safe for decades, but most people have no interest in knowing where government money is spent as long as they get some.

Europe gets off too easy.

For the US to stay in NATO:

* 80% of expensive equipment must be US made and manufactured. They can keep some parts and ammo mfg for themselves. 80 centiemes or whatever they call it of every Euro spent on Defense should go to US MIC. No Eurofighters, No German Frigates. Almost everything substantial made in the USA. Germany can have Frigates built in Alabama and the Super Hornet is a great Eurofighter replacement.

* 2% is the floor. NATO countries that miss 2 years in a row of 2% GDP spending on the Military are suspended from membership.

* NATO members must shut the fuck up and not veto or obsfucate on any USA activities in or beyond Europe, inc. the Middle East or Asia.

* Every NATO member must have a ready brigade (Netherlands, Spain), battalion (Denmark, Norway), or division (Germany, France, Italy) capable of acting completely independently with all logistics and support personnel necessary, for 48 hour ready status loaded up and ready to go. Unlike Germany, one of the richest countries in the world, that couldn't deploy an armored battalion in two weeks as the Leopards had all been cannabalized for parts under Merkel the Malificient.

We have plenty of problems too. The USCG hasn't had ASW capability in decades. There is no ASW equipment on any USG Cutter. Furthermore, if you did find some old equipment, there are no Coastguardsmen who know how to operate a sonar, prosecute contacts, or operate ship launched torpedoes at all. Meanwhile China is building Diesel-Electrics like no tomorrow. And UNLIKE WW2, the US is now almost utterly dependent on imported manufactured goods. It's so bad that the Maritime Sealift Command was just told "You're on your own" in a war situation, the USN has barely enough ships for Carrier Task Forces and almost nothing to escort as small a cargo fleet as our MSC, nevermind Civilian Traffic generally which is exponentially larger.

If we go to war with China, here's what happens. All US Surface Vessels are guarding Carriers, MSCs get sighted by a Chinese Kilo-knock off, MSC goes to bottom of sea, because a 25mm Autocannon can't find or stand off a submarine.

Oh, and our 2-3 generation lead in ASW was nixed when Dubya pussed out and let his CCP financiers take the Orion apart.

Did you know why the Orion didn't risk landing in the Philipenes?

Pregnant US Navywoman on board.

"Hurr Durr, women in military don't risk anything!"

Even in peacetime, the risk was such the CCP got all our Antisub and EW electronics because pregnant sailor on board.

Eric Holder says

Yawn. Europe is 500+ million people with an economy size on par with the US. They can totally defend themselves with or without. They have the money, the tech and the industrial base. And they hold the majority of $300B of Soviet assets, so in the end Pukin will be paying for the festivities. Twice.

The rump of the USSR is less than 150 mil people, with the economy roughly 1/5 of Europe's, they are already spending ~40% of their budget on the war and are still stuck at the same front line for more than a year. How exactly are they planning to "fuck" the rest of the NATO with this kind of field performance is a mystery.

Agreed. But that was the doing of the US who didn't want to let go of their influence in Europe, that's why you have these completely incompetent EUrocrats "leading" today, total US asskissers and handout recipients.

Eric Holder says

Yawn. Europe is 500+ million people with an economy size on par with the US. They can totally defend themselves with or without. They have the money, the tech and the industrial base. And they hold the majority of $300B of Soviet assets, so in the end Pukin will be paying for the festivities. Twice.

Don't you understand? Europe NOR the United States is at ALL worried about Russia invading Europe. That's just propaganda.

What they are DEATHLY afraid of is ending the money spigot of worthless war. THAT is their fear. The West creates war EXCLUSIVELY for profit. Not to win the war, not to grab resources (although they might if they can), not for strategic goals of any sort (although they will if they can), it's to take money from taxpayers, and send it to "Defense" Companies where politicians are LIBERALLY bribed in stock options and insider trading to take advantage of the gains, at taxpayer expense.

That's what war is in the United States and Europe.

Was Libya attacked to "prevent a humanitarian crisis"? No, it was to waste money. Was Syria attacked because "Assad is gassing his own people"? No, it was to waste money. Was Iraq attacked over "the weapons of mass destruction program"? No, it was to waste money. Was Ukraine overthrown to liberate it from its corruption? No, it was overthrown to waste money.

Every fucking war. And you dopes can't see the blatantly obvious pattern, because you're astoundingly subhuman and retarded. The West creates war for no other immediate goal than to take money from you, and steal it for themselves. You idiots that support this shit are the biggest fucking dupes on the planet.

Wars have no stated goals anymore. The US has been attacking Yemen and Somalia since 2016, you aren't even aware of it. Out of sight of of mind. The propaganda box doesn't mention it, and if the propaganda box doesn't talk about it, you don't think about it. TV is your god.

Eric Holder says

Yawn. Europe is 500+ million people with an economy size on par with the US. They can totally defend themselves with or without. They have the money, the tech and the industrial base. And they hold the majority of $300B of Soviet assets, so in the end Pukin will be paying for the festivities. Twice.

The rump of the USSR is less than 150 mil people, with the economy roughly 1/5 of Europe's, they are already spending ~40% of their budget on the war and are still stuck at the same front line for more than a year. How exactly are they planning to "fuck" the rest of the NATO with this kind of field performance is a mystery.

This. It's mind boggling how dumb people are. It's not just about weapons and muh they have nukes. They can't even defeat a tiny country population wise and military wise in 2 years. I don't care about the foreign ammunitions and involvement. Russia looks like a sack of shit. The Tucker and Putin interview was a lipstick on a pig interview. Lost most my respect for Tucker to be honest. Ask a question, get an answer and move to the next. Don't give a dictator a platform to just fucking froth from the mouth. Bad look.

Europe needs to get its shit in order. They've never been able to though. What should be a geezer with knowledge and smarts, is a tiny baby that can't even fucking roll over. I don't want involvement on that side of the planet at all, but if we let them play in their sandbox, they'll always do something stupid.

Stop our taxpayers wasting zillions on noto....they can meet in Joe's garage for free

Eric Holder says

How exactly are they planning to "fuck" the rest of the NATO with this kind of field performance is a mystery.

Because NATO can't even maintain fighting levels that the Russians can. That's why. Not in the type of industrial warfare being waged in Ukraine. Russians are King of Arty, for one thing.

We haven't fought an 'industrial war' since WW2. Maybe Korea. The Russians are. Europe can't do shit.

The Poles are buying/manufacturing a total of 1,000 Black Panther tanks from South Korea (200 purchased and another 800 manufacturered under license in Poland). But they won't get those until 2028 or so. Still, that's more tanks than Ukraine, Germany, UK, France and Italy have combined. It's a good start. Clearly the Poles have written off NATO.

The Poles and Sorks are kindred spirits in that they don't fuck around unlike the US/NATO countries do.

WookieMan says

They can't even defeat a tiny country population wise and military wise in 2 years

Ukraine is the size of Texas and...at the start of the war...had more ppl than Texas does.

Still has less illegals than Texas has.

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says

They can't even defeat a tiny country population wise and military wise in 2 years

Ukraine is the size of Texas and...at the start of the war...had more ppl than Texas does.

143M vs 43M population. 2 years. Let me know who is winning.... You know I'm right. The land mass doesn't matter. This should have been a cake walk for Russia. Still chugs on and it's only going to continue with more money. 1/5th of Ukrainian adults have likely left the country. We really have no clue. So the population imbalance is likely even more and than factor in casualties.

By all metrics Russia looks like a turd in this. Putin doesn't care about their casualties. Why do you think he took the Tucker interview? He's trying to save face and act like Russia is the nice guy. This is war politics 101.

Russia lost about 27 million people during WW2 because of invasion from the West. They figure if they lose a couple hundred thousand, but prevent another invasion of Russia, it works for them.

Here in the US we have a few scattered memorials for our 300000 loss during WW2. In Russia, the monuments are all over the place.

Chyner is in the North Atlantic, In’t it?

WookieMan says

You know I'm right. The land mass doesn't matter.

Tell Napolean that. Tell Hitler that.

Adveevka has fallen.

How many Ukey lives were squandered on this defeat?

And for what? Ukey women who fled to Eastern Europe are now popping out Hungarian, Slovak, Czech & Romanian babies. Ukeys are going extinct even before the Chinese and Russians will.

Ukraine Is Fucked

WookieMan says

This. It's mind boggling how dumb people are. It's not just about weapons and muh they have nukes. They can't even defeat a tiny country population wise and military wise in 2 years.

I don't know why people can't understand this.

Russia isn't attempting to win the war quickly. If they were, they would have gone after Kiev. They are purposely dragging out this war to entirely exhaust the supporters of Ukraine, which is NATO and the United States.

This is a proxy war between Russia and the West. How can people not understand the strategy?

The United States does the SAME EXACT THING. Why are you so blind you can't see that Russia has adopted exactly the same strategy the United States has LONG since embraced? Russia is playing the same game the US is. Russia is not going to run out of munitions, nor are they going to run out of men, but Ukraine will run out of men, and already have for all practical purposes. They will NOT run out of money, Europe and the United States (one way or another) will continue to fund them.

Before this war began I predicted this:

https://patrick.net/post/1343140/2021-12-29-a-ukraine-war-and-the-end-of-russia?start=1#comment-1808895

And I predicted this before the war began. I was HOPING that Russia would just do a quick decapitation of the leadership of Ukraine, but instead, they are going to liquidate the entire male population of Western Ukraine. The men have either fled Ukraine, are are dying in trenches. The men that left, I don't think will ever return.

People who insist that Russia is "losing" because they have been there so long are silly. How long was the US in Vietnam? Iraq? Afghanistan? The US is still in Syria. Russia is different than the US in one way though, they don't bankrupt their entire fucking nation to engage in wars, the US does.

Russia has lost (6) SU-34's and 35's in the last few days.

Ukraine is using an old Patriot system that they gerry rigged on a truck to move around.

Imagine what a proper NATO air force could do to the shambolic Russian shitshow?

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1759536236694290888

socal2 says

Russia has lost (6) SU-34's and 35's in the last few days.

Ukraine is using an old Patriot system that they gerry rigged on a truck to move around.

Imagine what a proper NATO air force could do to the shambolic Russian shitshow?

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1759536236694290888

Exactly. The "war of attrition" is off the table. This should have been a breeze for Russia. We conquered Iraq and Afghanistan around the globe in WEEKS. Winning militarily is subject. We destroyed those countries. Russia tried Kiev and failed miserably. Indisputable.

The occupation afterward I agree is up for discussion. Russia isn't even occupying without drones and artillery being dropped on them. They don't fully control the territory. They've lost naval vessels in their only warm water port. No one cares about Ukraine. This is a disaster for Russia. How did WWII work out for USSR? Really think about it. They're idiots. They will drag this out for a decade throwing men at it. Fine you got Ukraine... lol. What a joke. Russia is toast as it was when it was the USSR. Nothing has changed. They're drunk idiots.

richwicks says

The West creates war for no other immediate goal than to take money from you, and steal it for themselves. You idiots that support this shit are the biggest fucking dupes on the planet.

Ouch but, I agree. Let's see if The Great Taking, CBDCs and depop become reality. Yes, I believe our government is hyper focused on $$ and power for themselves. That's a dangerous thing. Very dangerous.

If Ukraine is in NATO, the United States should be out, plain and simple.

A decision that could trigger the next world war cannot be made by transnational elites, unaccountable to any country or its citizens. As the body tasked with providing advice and consent on additions to the North Atlantic Treaty, the road to Ukraine’s NATO membership runs through the U.S. Senate. If we are serious about preserving U.S. hegemony, at no point can our nation be forced by a dependent Europe to accept the risk of nuclear escalation. We must draw a redline with NATO: You can have Ukraine or the United States. If allied boots hit the ground in Ukraine, we should walk away from NATO entirely.

In the meantime, perhaps someone should remind Jens Stoltenberg that his job is to be a steward of the strategic interests of NATO’s dues-paying members, not a shill for Ukraine. As the largest financial backer of the alliance, it is time the U.S. prioritizes participation in NATO according to our core strategic interests. WWIII is not on the agenda, and it is far past time for the United States to close NATO’s open door.

- Sen. Mike Lee, publicly bitchslapping Stoltenberg

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/nato-can-have-ukraine-or-the-usa-not-both/

First Nuland gets shitcanned and now this.

All in one week.

Sure some resisting Blobster still got their desperate warmongering into Gramp's SOTU speech. But the momentum is to Afghanistan the Ukies.

WookieMan says

We conquered Iraq and Afghanistan around the globe in WEEKS.

We never conquered Afghanistan, and we're still struggling with an insurgency in Iraq. Iran controls Iraq more than the US did, which is funny, because the US funded Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war which was fought to a stalemate and now Iran is victorious because of the US war in Iraq that the Bush administration lied the country into.

richwicks says

We never conquered Afghanistan

We did. My buddy did two tours over there. He said all they did was just patrol. My other buddy that I just saw Wednesday was there as well, only one tour. Neither saw any action and they were Army and Marines. Never got shot at.

You do know what we were actually there for, right?