10
0

Taxes


 invite response                
2022 Jul 11, 5:28pm   16,090 views  227 comments

by GreaterNYCDude   ➕follow (2)   💰tip   ignore  

I've been thinking about this off and on lately, and there's been some recent threads related to the topic, so I figure I'll set up a separate thread.

Until the 16th ammendment was passed in the early 1900's, we got by without fedetal income taxes. Tariffs did the trick. Of course, we were not yet the superpower we became, huge millitary and all, and there were not nearly the federally funded social programs we have today.

Frankly, I don't think your average American realizes how heavily they are taxed. Federal. State (with some excaptions) Property. School. Gas. Sales. Etc.

For most in the middle and upper middle class, federal income tax is the biggest share of taxes paid on a percentage basis.

In a modern captalist economy, it makes more sense to me to tax consumption rather than income.

So why not abolish the federal income tax, and instead have a federal tax on goods and services rendered. Better yet, couple it with a balanced budget amment so that the government can't spend money they don't have.

Taxing goods should be straightforward to implement. Buy a bag of rice, clothes, a house, a car, stock, etc. tax it at a nominal rate to raise sufficent revenue to keep the government running. Tax should apply to individuals and corporations alike. I have no idea what the rate would need to be to replace the lost income income revenue, but there must be a way for the been counters to figure that out.

Same holds for services. From your lawyer to your plumber to your accountant.. services rendered should also be taxed... possibly at a different rate than physical goods, since we are a "service based economy".

Just thinking out loud here.. In the 21st century there MUST be a better way to raise revenue than income tax and the various loopholes used to reduce or even avoid ones tax burden.

« First        Comments 95 - 134 of 227       Last »     Search these comments

95   AD   2024 Apr 7, 11:22pm  

richwicks says


WookieMan says

So sick of the hyper focus on federal government. It has its place,

It's the most expensive government, that does the least, and creates money at will. That's the problem.


The key is how much debt payment or service is as a percentage of total expenditures as well examine further as far as percentage of total tax receipts

It was 8% of total expenditures in 2022. I wonder what it was in 2023 and what it will be in 2024.

If it gets to 15% then I can see the Trump Tax cuts expiring and no effect compromise or negotiations as the plan is to increase tax receipts as much as they can to reduce the ratio of debt service to total expenditures.

.
96   richwicks   2024 Apr 8, 12:16am  

AD says

The key is how much debt payment or service is as a percentage of total expenditures as well examine further as far as percentage of total tax receipts


The national debt goes up a trillion dollars in less than 100 days.

This is the national debt graphed on a logarithmic scale, since 1971 - when the US abandoned the gold standard:



That's our debt on a log scale. The country is fucked. People just ignore it and think it's no big deal. The next generation will be a generation of slaves.
97   GreaterNYCDude   2024 Apr 8, 4:58am  

richwicks says

AD says


The key is how much debt payment or service is as a percentage of total expenditures as well examine further as far as percentage of total tax receipts


The national debt goes up a trillion dollars in less than 100 days.

This is the national debt graphed on a logarithmic scale, since 1971 - when the US abandoned the gold standard:



That's our debt on a log scale. The country is fucked. People just ignore it and think it's no big deal. The next generation will be a generation of slaves.

But I remember them saying this in the 80s... How their kids (in other words anyone Gen X or younger) would be debt slaves to Japan (this was before the rise of China).

Who is going to for close on the US? The only way it falls apart if the dollar is no longer the currency of preference for the international community... But what are you going to replace the dollar with?

In the late 1990s and early 2000 everyone thought it would be the Euro... How'd that work out?

Millions still come to this contry for a chance at a better life, legally or otherwise.

Yes taxes suck, and the system in many ways is broken, but we're still the "least bad" option. We're that not the case, people would be leaving America in droves for opportunities elsewhere.

Taxes in Europe make the US (almost) look reasonable. The disconnect is that unless you know how to play the game, have a solid business and a good account, you can't take full advantage of the system which admittedly is rigged to help corporations and special interests at the expense of the 9 to 5 middle class wage slave.
98   clambo   2024 Apr 8, 6:20am  

Are you all aware that the USA operated with no income tax for about a century? There were 1. tariffs on imported goods 2. tax on spirit alcohol.

WWI cost a bundle. Then, women got the vote, then Prohibition. Here came 1. taxes 2. ATF, FBI, IRS, etc.

George Washington warned about the USA avoiding "foreign entanglements." WWI was not our fight.

We don't need most Federal departments; the Dept. of Defense today is needed, but it's overly large and expensive.

I was talking to a deluded liberal MD friend of mine who resides in San Diego; he thinks he's gonna owe $100,000 in taxes for 2023.
He doesn't mind, maybe he likes the reverse bragging rights?

But, he's retirement age and he's busting his ass working; he doesn't know how to get off the hamster wheel of debt, spending, and making money.

My actual effective Federal tax rate was around 10% last year; maybe I posted that already somewhere.
99   WookieMan   2024 Apr 8, 8:04am  

clambo says

I was talking to a deluded liberal MD friend of mine who resides in San Diego; he thinks he's gonna owe $100,000 in taxes for 2023.
He doesn't mind, maybe he likes the reverse bragging rights?

Don't conflate bragging with being pissed off and venting about it when 50% of the country pays nothing. I paid my $40k and am pissed about it. It's not attention seeking. I'm legit pissed. Don't care about people being jealous of income. That's always going to exist. If anything I'm jealous of NOT paying $100k in taxes because I know that number. 80% at least of the population doesn't.

I don't think earners really understand how financially illiterate most the population is. A person that gets a return on $60k income with a family of 2 kids, likely paid $0 in federal taxes. Yet they think they paid taxes because they filed. Yes, you did your taxes, it doesn't mean you paid a dime at the end of the day.
100   HeadSet   2024 Apr 8, 8:29am  

WookieMan says

A person that gets a return on $60k income with a family of 2 kids, likely paid $0 in federal taxes.

In the original intent of the income tax when they passed a Constitutional Amendment to allow it, income tax was supposed to apply to only the wealthy. Therefore, keeping with that spirit, the $60k guy should not have to pay it.
101   AD   2024 Apr 8, 8:40am  

WookieMan says


Yet they think they paid taxes because they filed. Yes, you did your taxes, it doesn't mean you paid a dime at the end of the day.


Yes as far as standard deduction, earned income credit (EIC), Affordable Care Act subsidies, etc whereas they pay 0% of their total income and wages to federal income tax (and state income tax) or maybe at most 5% of that (i.e., effective rate for income tax).

They pay "tax" the other ways like Social Security, Medicare, state and local sales tax, property tax, gas tax, etc. For us in Florida which there is a ~80% chance you live in an HOA, you pay a HOA "tax" since the HOA takes on a lot of responsibility that a municipal government would normally take on up North in a non HOA neighborhood.

Income tax comes predominantly from the socioeconomic range of middle class single filers to billionaire class.

.
102   AD   2024 Apr 8, 8:46am  

richwicks says

That's our debt on a log scale. The country is fucked. People just ignore it and think it's no big deal. The next generation will be a generation of slaves.


Yes, but notice China owns a lot less US federal debt compared to what they owned in 2015 ? IRA and 401k owners hold a lot of "investment grade debt" in the form of US Treasuries. Also pension funds like CALPERS and the Federal Reserve balance sheet hold US Treasuries, though the Fed is quantitative tightening (QT).

I suspect they'll start turning the curve and the debt to GDP ratio will drop from currently 121% to 90% (i.e., around 2011 levels) when the Trump tax cuts are expired for about 2 years. It peaked around 132% in early 2020.

They just got to hope the US Treasury 10 Yr steadies below 4%, which historically is around 1.5% greater than annual inflation (and the 30 Year mortgage is historically around 1.5% greater than the 10 Yr Treasury).

.
103   richwicks   2024 Apr 8, 11:40am  

GreaterNYCDude says


But I remember them saying this in the 80s... How their kids (in other words anyone Gen X or younger) would be debt slaves to Japan (this was before the rise of China).

Name anything in the world that can have exponential growth that doesn't end in a collapse.

Anything

The time of fixing this is over. We're going to become a feudal system where our leaders just use the state to finance whatever they won't and stick the rest of the population with debt.
104   AD   2024 Apr 8, 12:54pm  

richwicks says

The time of fixing this is over.


I already see improvement with debt to GDP ratio and I think it will get better when the Trump tax cuts expire and then they are re negotiated into a bipartisan compromise a couple years later.

.
105   HeadSet   2024 Apr 8, 1:20pm  

AD says

I already see improvement with debt to GDP ratio and I think it will get better when the Trump tax cuts expire

When the Trump tax cuts were first implemented, did tax revenue increase? If so, then the increased taxation when the cuts expire may curtain enough economic activity that collections actually decrease.
106   WookieMan   2024 Apr 8, 2:18pm  

HeadSet says


In the original intent of the income tax when they passed a Constitutional Amendment to allow it, income tax was supposed to apply to only the wealthy. Therefore, keeping with that spirit, the $60k guy should not have to pay it.

I don't think I'm rich. Why should I be pissing away about 18% of our income? At some point it is better to pay 0% and make less. That's where we're at. Is it really worth the effort?

Everyone should have some skin in the game. A good chunk don't, but they still get to vote. Fuck them. That's my beef. Weighted voting by taxes paid. A wealthy person with high income, but skates taxes and pays zero gets one vote. A poor person that pays zero gets one vote. You pay $500 in taxes you get 3 votes. I'd get 5 votes. You pay $100k you get 6. That way the middle class controls voting. Sick of it being about blacks, hispanics, etc. with voting. It would take race out overnight and put the control in the middle classes hands. Any race.
107   AD   2024 Apr 8, 2:33pm  

HeadSet says

When the Trump tax cuts were first implemented, did tax revenue increase? If so, then the increased taxation when the cuts expire may curtain enough economic activity that collections actually decrease.


That is a difficult call or forecast, as it relates to the concept of Laffer Curve.

.
108   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Apr 8, 9:01pm  

clambo says

the Dept. of Defense today is needed


Wasn't needed in the late 1700's when we handed the greatest Army in the world their asses.
109   AD   2024 Apr 8, 10:09pm  

NuttBoxer says

clambo says

the Dept. of Defense today is needed

Wasn't needed in the late 1700's when we handed the greatest Army in the world their asses.


not a good example to compare to present day

the technology of war has changed and the chicoms are our main adversary

.
110   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Apr 9, 9:41am  

It hasn't though. They need people to man their side, and we have WAY more. They've already stated quite publicly that it's easier to kill than control million people today. If they could round up a million of us and exterminate us using military they would(see Gaza).

The only thing that's changed between now and back then, central banks have warped most people's minds to make us think fantasy is reality. It's not, they are losing, and if they try to take us militarily, they will be slaughtered.
111   PeopleUnited   2024 Apr 9, 10:05am  

NuttBoxer says

It's not, they are losing

I don’t see any front on which the globalists are losing. They are literally one or two moves from check mate. Get ready for the Antichrist people.
112   AD   2024 Apr 9, 11:07am  

NuttBoxer says


They need people to man their side,


You don't need a 2 million standing army (i..e, active duty , not reserve and national guard). You don't need that with the technology of war today. Look even what the Marines are saying about "FORCE MULTIPLIERS" (I figured I throw that lexicon in there for the Head Set crowd here, and that one Patnet poster who I think is a Naval Academy alum). The drones with sensors are what a lot of the Marine Corp is talking about.

Its about about the Pentagon wisely spending taxpayer dollars to ensure the adequate readiness level. I realize pensions and disability payments (comes from an unofficial "branch of the Pentagon" called Veteran Affairs) are a major factor as far as driving this.

.
113   HeadSet   2024 Apr 9, 4:05pm  

NuttBoxer says

clambo says


the Dept. of Defense today is needed


Wasn't needed in the late 1700's when we handed the greatest Army in the world their asses.

With quite a spot of help from the French. I 1812 we could not stop the British from landing near Yorktown and marching around 100 miles to sack Washinton.
114   HeadSet   2024 Apr 9, 4:17pm  

AD says

that one Patnet poster who I think is a Naval Academy alum

We have a Canoe U poster here?
115   AD   2024 Apr 9, 6:19pm  

HeadSet says

AD says

that one Patnet poster who I think is a Naval Academy alum

We have a Canoe U poster here?


I think there is one as they identified themselves as a USNA alum. It was about 4 years ago at least when they did identify themselves.

.
116   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Apr 10, 8:54am  

AD says


You don't need a 2 million standing army (i..e, active duty , not reserve and national guard). You don't need that with the technology of war today.

I agree with the first part, kind of my whole point. But not with the second. We had better tech in Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos. How did that work out? We sent better tech to Ukraine, how are they doing? No one conquers a people without a ground invasion. Which is why they push so hard to disarm us, inject us with poison, etc.
So my question, if they don't believe their tech is enough, why should you?

AD says


Its about about the Pentagon wisely spending taxpayer dollars to ensure the adequate readiness level.


WAAHHH HAHAHAHAHA!!! You mean like when they announced 1.8 trillion missing on 9/10? Until you understand money laundering, NASA, and the significance of that press conference, you're just gonna continue to make hilarious statements like the above.
Let me go back to my time tested question. Tell me when government involvement has EVER made ANYTHING better?
117   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Apr 10, 8:58am  

HeadSet says

With quite a spot of help from the French. I 1812 we could not stop the British from landing near Yorktown and marching around 100 miles to sack Washinton.


If we're putting qualifiers what about England's army being mostly mercenaries? What about a majority of Americans being Loyalists? Does it really matter? Whether England or the US had help, the outcome is still largest empire in the world lost to a volunteer army where the soldiers literally left during the war to harvest their crops.
118   AmericanKulak   2024 Apr 10, 10:11am  

Submarines, not Carriers, are the wave of the future.

Only submarines have the survivability and resilience. It's the ultimate asymetric response to raw-materials import dependent CHYna.

Dozens of shallow water optimized D/E boats with harpoons sending every Liberian tanker and bulk carrier loaded with MENA Oil and Aussie Iron to Davey Jones' Locker in the Java and South China sea. Better yet, the Indian Ocean where Chinese assets and bases are more limited and India may very well act if Chinese presence was to intensify.

The Chinese have spent two decades on Carrier busting missiles and conventional MIRV-like vehicles. POOF!
119   clambo   2024 Apr 10, 1:43pm  

I just used HR Block and did my 2023 1040 in an hour and a half.

My tax rate was pretty low.
Adjusted Gross Income=$103,712
Actual Tax Due=$9724

As you can see, this is not a bad rate at all. The secret is probably the large dividend distributions from my mutual funds are "qualified dividends".

I'm not actually spending my retirement accounts, taxable accounts and variable annuity; this is from a couple of bond funds, a balanced fund, and annual dividend distributions from other funds which do that every December (e.g. Vanguard Total Stock Market Fund, etc.)

I have an inherited IRA worth about $200K and I take about $10K out which is going up each year (RMD is based on my age).

I filed electronically so maybe if there's an error I will hear about it pretty soon.
Edit: My Medicare and drug benefit called Part D (deducted from my social security payments) were $4334 in 2023.
120   HeadSet   2024 Apr 10, 2:20pm  

clambo says

I have an inherited IRA worth about $200K and I take about $10K out which is going up each year (RMD is based on my age).

I though inherited IRAs had to be spent down in 10 years regardless of inheritor's age, whether Roth or Traditional, unless you got it from a spouse. Another exception for chronically ill, but I do not think that would apply to you.
121   clambo   2024 Apr 10, 4:21pm  

Headset, I believe the RMD rules that applied when I inherited in 2017 still apply.
Those who recently inherited an IRA will have different rules.

I think the new RMD rules suck; of course we all want to delay taking money out of an inherited IRA.
122   HeadSet   2024 Apr 10, 6:37pm  

clambo says

Headset, I believe the RMD rules that applied when I inherited in 2017 it still apply.

Correct, you are grandfathered if you inherited the IRA before 2020.
123   AD   2024 Apr 10, 10:49pm  

AmericanKulak says


Submarines, not Carriers, are the wave of the future.


Yes, I read now Lockheed's hypersonic missiles are being deployed on Navy ships this year. It looks like the Virginia Class submarine is fitted to deploy both the Tomahawk cruise missile and the hypersonic missile. I can see where the Virginia class can conduct land attack missions such as with the Lockheed hypersonic missiles.


124   AD   2024 Apr 10, 11:00pm  

NuttBoxer says


No one conquers a people without a ground invasion.


yes i agree, but you can ramp up over 1 year for a ground invasion such as train national guard and reserves and recruit a lot more

that is why you do not need a major standing army as you achieve or gain one by that 1 year period , hence this is a way to wisely spend money for national security and not put as much demand on tax dollars

.
125   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Apr 11, 6:57am  

National security is the guise they used to pass the Patriot Act. It's the excuse they made for jailing Manning, Assange, and Snowden(if they had caught him).

Standing armies/national defense/national security is only possible with a central bank. These efforts are all prohibitively expensive, and contrary to the concepts this country was founded on. Mainly our freedom. Look at everything done in the name of any of these, especially around OKC, Waco, Ruby Ridge, 9/11, and everything that's happened since then. I don't think you've stepped back to understand the reality of what they are doing versus the newspeak of what they claim.
126   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Apr 11, 6:59am  

And similar to US war planes article that recently stated 70% aren't working, US drones sucks ass as well(re-think your paradigm):
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/us-drones-are-expensive-and-error-prone-so-ukraine-turns-china

« First        Comments 95 - 134 of 227       Last »     Search these comments

Please register to comment:

api   best comments   contact   latest images   memes   one year ago   random   suggestions   gaiste