housing prices peak 2
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2022 Apr 29, 9:29pm 607,633 views 5,691 comments
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5671
GreaterNYCDude
2024 Dec 18, 8:17am
@zzyzzx
Love the chart. The sharp rise in the 80s was obviously the "greed is good" era. Part of it was Regand pro growth anti regulation approach which dragged us out of the stagflation of the 1970s.
Despite the recession in the 90s the trend reverted to a new mean almost 10x higher than the generation before. This in my view is attributeable to the rise in dual income households, either as women entered the workforce or single parents picked up second (or third) jobs.
Most of us remember the tech bubble of the late 90s and early 2000s which began the hosing bubble and subsequent collapse on '08. Things reverted back to where they would have been absent a bubble.
This happens to be when I bought my house (2012) at a nice low rate for the time (3.5% for 30 yr fixed).
We're now over a decade on and this "everything bubble" is massive. Absent a structural shift there is going to be a day of reckoning.
It could be the market collapses (again). It could be the fed intervenes and lowers rates. Banks may also loosen lending standards if the feds let them. This should help keep the party going with punch in the bowl.
But I think worst case one of two outcomes is probable. 1) we end up like the Walton's. Multi generations or multi families under one roof, so that there are three, four or six incomes coming in. Or 2) transfer of housing stock via inheritance. Or a mix of both.
For as tough as it was 20 years ago when I first started shopping for a house, it's 10x more diffult today. Covid and work from home has permanently shifted the landscape. Here in the suburbs of NYC we've seen a new wave of "city folk" moving in.
Love the chart. The sharp rise in the 80s was obviously the "greed is good" era. Part of it was Regand pro growth anti regulation approach which dragged us out of the stagflation of the 1970s.
Despite the recession in the 90s the trend reverted to a new mean almost 10x higher than the generation before. This in my view is attributeable to the rise in dual income households, either as women entered the workforce or single parents picked up second (or third) jobs.
Most of us remember the tech bubble of the late 90s and early 2000s which began the hosing bubble and subsequent collapse on '08. Things reverted back to where they would have been absent a bubble.
This happens to be when I bought my house (2012) at a nice low rate for the time (3.5% for 30 yr fixed).
We're now over a decade on and this "everything bubble" is massive. Absent a structural shift there is going to be a day of reckoning.
It could be the market collapses (again). It could be the fed intervenes and lowers rates. Banks may also loosen lending standards if the feds let them. This should help keep the party going with punch in the bowl.
But I think worst case one of two outcomes is probable. 1) we end up like the Walton's. Multi generations or multi families under one roof, so that there are three, four or six incomes coming in. Or 2) transfer of housing stock via inheritance. Or a mix of both.
For as tough as it was 20 years ago when I first started shopping for a house, it's 10x more diffult today. Covid and work from home has permanently shifted the landscape. Here in the suburbs of NYC we've seen a new wave of "city folk" moving in.
5674
RWSGFY
2024 Dec 18, 8:37am
RWSGFY
2024 Dec 18, 8:37am
The RTO clampdown is accelerating so all these folks who moved into (formerly) inexpensive areas to spend their big city bucks are in for an awakening. I'm already being bombarded by "price lowered" alerts in Tahoe area where yons of Goolag and Fuckbook peeps moved during scamdemic. (The Tahoe area is inexpensive only relatively to the Bay Area, of course, but still.)
5675
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Dec 18, 8:44am
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Dec 18, 8:44am
RWSGFY says
THE ATTEMPT TO ENFORCE RTO is accelerating. All to save commercial real estate sunk costs. But the reality is different.
Firms that do not pay much for office space because they have WFH vs those that do have a competitive advantage. FB, Apple, Microsoft and Google have massive sunk costs in buildings. But they have near monopoly control of their markets but those markets or monopolies won't last forever. FB is all old ppl now. GenX or older.
Other firms don't enjoy that.
And the high value employees almost always get WFH privileges no matter what. Because when they don't, they go work where that is the case.
That in turn causes problems with the hoi polloi workers "How come 300 IQ Han gets to WFH but I don't? It's because I am a trans POC, right?"
Of course right now, mgmt probably wants a lot of these hires to quit anyway.
The RTO clampdown is accelerating
THE ATTEMPT TO ENFORCE RTO is accelerating. All to save commercial real estate sunk costs. But the reality is different.
Firms that do not pay much for office space because they have WFH vs those that do have a competitive advantage. FB, Apple, Microsoft and Google have massive sunk costs in buildings. But they have near monopoly control of their markets but those markets or monopolies won't last forever. FB is all old ppl now. GenX or older.
Other firms don't enjoy that.
And the high value employees almost always get WFH privileges no matter what. Because when they don't, they go work where that is the case.
That in turn causes problems with the hoi polloi workers "How come 300 IQ Han gets to WFH but I don't? It's because I am a trans POC, right?"
Of course right now, mgmt probably wants a lot of these hires to quit anyway.
5676
WookieMan
2024 Dec 18, 9:25am
WookieMan
2024 Dec 18, 9:25am
AmericanKulak says
Job relocation isn't a big one. Most people aren't married anymore and one usually keeps the house anyway. Job loss you're an idiot if you can't find a new one. I can't work full time and get dozens of offers a month. Death the kids take over the estate and see all these real estate guru's and rent it out.
Retirement is probably the biggest, but Boomers with a brain have already done what they need to. They're either wealthy and can keep the big house or were empty nesters in the 2010's and downsized already. That played into the housing crash besides shit loans. Boomers are my parents friends, none of them are moving. My mom is but she has a unique property that isn't your average home or land.
I've said I'm the anecdotal guy. I see no Uhauls on the road. No moving trucks here in IL. New houses are being built. Prices can look like a bubble, but if the loans are solid I don't see a problem. I think it's more movement of people fleeing shit states with shit policies at this point. Everyone that left IL already did. Uhaul is stacked here. So little to no out of state movement.
I think CA and the Northeast are going to bring the national median down with their high home prices. It won't be a crash though nationwide like last time. It will look bad on paper, but likely only two regions. And that might not even happen for a while.
Job Relocation, Divorce, Job Loss, Health & Death, and Retirement...
Job relocation isn't a big one. Most people aren't married anymore and one usually keeps the house anyway. Job loss you're an idiot if you can't find a new one. I can't work full time and get dozens of offers a month. Death the kids take over the estate and see all these real estate guru's and rent it out.
Retirement is probably the biggest, but Boomers with a brain have already done what they need to. They're either wealthy and can keep the big house or were empty nesters in the 2010's and downsized already. That played into the housing crash besides shit loans. Boomers are my parents friends, none of them are moving. My mom is but she has a unique property that isn't your average home or land.
I've said I'm the anecdotal guy. I see no Uhauls on the road. No moving trucks here in IL. New houses are being built. Prices can look like a bubble, but if the loans are solid I don't see a problem. I think it's more movement of people fleeing shit states with shit policies at this point. Everyone that left IL already did. Uhaul is stacked here. So little to no out of state movement.
I think CA and the Northeast are going to bring the national median down with their high home prices. It won't be a crash though nationwide like last time. It will look bad on paper, but likely only two regions. And that might not even happen for a while.
5678
AmericanKulak
2024 Dec 19, 2:40pm
AmericanKulak
2024 Dec 19, 2:40pm
WookieMan says
It's more typical that the house is ordered sold and the equity split.
You're looking at this as an R/E investor and not as Joe Average, for whom the home is the biggest "asset" he's ever had.
The Demographic Crunch is coming and is unavoidable. IL has been experiencing net migration and population loss for years and years now; and the huge influx of migrants and illegals still results in a net loss.
It's never been a worse time to buy.
one usually keeps the house anyway.
It's more typical that the house is ordered sold and the equity split.
You're looking at this as an R/E investor and not as Joe Average, for whom the home is the biggest "asset" he's ever had.
The Demographic Crunch is coming and is unavoidable. IL has been experiencing net migration and population loss for years and years now; and the huge influx of migrants and illegals still results in a net loss.
It's never been a worse time to buy.
5679
AmericanKulak
2024 Dec 19, 2:50pm
AmericanKulak
2024 Dec 19, 2:50pm
BTW, massive rental collapse in Florida.
I'm starting to see 2+ beds under $2000 and even some old 3+ beds out for rental. You could barely find Studios or 1 beds. This is on the Beach.
Under $2000 in Palm Bay now, brimming with 90s houses (not townhouse, not apts) under $2000. 6 months ago there was nothing.
Thinking about it as I'm outgrowing my little Condo with kids growing up and mom (78) needing to move in shortly.
EDIT: And this is December, the WORST time to look for rentals.
I'm starting to see 2+ beds under $2000 and even some old 3+ beds out for rental. You could barely find Studios or 1 beds. This is on the Beach.
Under $2000 in Palm Bay now, brimming with 90s houses (not townhouse, not apts) under $2000. 6 months ago there was nothing.
Thinking about it as I'm outgrowing my little Condo with kids growing up and mom (78) needing to move in shortly.
EDIT: And this is December, the WORST time to look for rentals.
5680
WookieMan
2024 Dec 19, 3:18pm
WookieMan
2024 Dec 19, 3:18pm
AmericanKulak says
Not anymore. Given rates we're building pretty strong here. Not biased either. There's no homes for sale here. FL is a different story with different parts. People are moving out of Chicago now but still staying in state. FL probably has an overbuilding problem of houses, condos and apartments.
NY, CA have IL type exodus problems. We've for sure stabilized now though. Won't grow by any means, maybe still lose a little, but not a lot. If IL hit level 10, NY & CA are level 3-4 right now on the way to 10. That will decimate the national median which is the stat used to scare people and get clicks for media with no context to the story.
FL I think it's just tap the brakes on building for a year or two (mostly) and let demand catch up with inventory to level it out. You guys have had the influx of people that can actually retire already and likely overbuilt. Your average boomer is high 60-70 age wise. Past higher end SS collection age and 59-1/2 for IRA/401k with no penalty. Basically if you were 60 you should have retired and if you wanted a condo in FL already did it a decade ago. So they built to demand and it's drying up because everyone did it.
Time flies when you're having fun. Boomers that can't retire won't and will stay put. Those that can already did. We're a decade past that timeline. There's no mass movement of geezers. Or they stay put because they can afford to or can't because they're broke. We've crossed the Boomer moving threshold is my point. It's over.
The Demographic Crunch is coming and is unavoidable. IL has been experiencing net migration and population loss for years and years now; and the huge influx of migrants and illegals still results in a net loss.
Not anymore. Given rates we're building pretty strong here. Not biased either. There's no homes for sale here. FL is a different story with different parts. People are moving out of Chicago now but still staying in state. FL probably has an overbuilding problem of houses, condos and apartments.
NY, CA have IL type exodus problems. We've for sure stabilized now though. Won't grow by any means, maybe still lose a little, but not a lot. If IL hit level 10, NY & CA are level 3-4 right now on the way to 10. That will decimate the national median which is the stat used to scare people and get clicks for media with no context to the story.
FL I think it's just tap the brakes on building for a year or two (mostly) and let demand catch up with inventory to level it out. You guys have had the influx of people that can actually retire already and likely overbuilt. Your average boomer is high 60-70 age wise. Past higher end SS collection age and 59-1/2 for IRA/401k with no penalty. Basically if you were 60 you should have retired and if you wanted a condo in FL already did it a decade ago. So they built to demand and it's drying up because everyone did it.
Time flies when you're having fun. Boomers that can't retire won't and will stay put. Those that can already did. We're a decade past that timeline. There's no mass movement of geezers. Or they stay put because they can afford to or can't because they're broke. We've crossed the Boomer moving threshold is my point. It's over.
5681
gabbar
2024 Dec 22, 5:45am
gabbar
2024 Dec 22, 5:45am
WookieMan says
What does this mean? Can you explain this, please.
That will decimate the national median which is the stat used to scare people and get clicks for media with no context to the story.
What does this mean? Can you explain this, please.
5682
WookieMan
2024 Dec 22, 6:14am
WookieMan
2024 Dec 22, 6:14am
gabbar says
Median national price. If you include NY, IL, CA or any states with an exodus moving into lower priced states the median price nationally goes down. It's a scare tactic to get clicks and views for ad revenue for media and real estate commentators. Meanwhile Nebraska, Wyoming, Arkansas or Alabama are doing just fine. And most states.
Ignore national median is all I'll say. It's a bull shit metric. Maybe look at your state, but here in IL go by county. People are staying in the state now, but just moving out of Chicago to cheaper homes/rent and better schools. Millennials are finally having kids and I think the even younger generation is having more kids too.
Point is 3 states could bring the national median down 10-20%. Looks awful. It's because it's dictated by coastal states. Focus on your state and county level values. If people are leaving, the higher end homes will lose the most and others will follow. If CA doesn't sell 300 $30M homes and cuts them to $20M, that moves the national median. Same with NYC. Condos and houses drop $5-10M median goes lower.
Thing is generally no one is losing in those markets. Sure they lost money but now the rest of the country feels like it's a crash and panic. The loans are good now for the most part. It's inventory and delinquencies to keep an eye on. Not national median.
WookieMan says
That will decimate the national median which is the stat used to scare people and get clicks for media with no context to the story.
What does this mean? Can you explain this, please.
Median national price. If you include NY, IL, CA or any states with an exodus moving into lower priced states the median price nationally goes down. It's a scare tactic to get clicks and views for ad revenue for media and real estate commentators. Meanwhile Nebraska, Wyoming, Arkansas or Alabama are doing just fine. And most states.
Ignore national median is all I'll say. It's a bull shit metric. Maybe look at your state, but here in IL go by county. People are staying in the state now, but just moving out of Chicago to cheaper homes/rent and better schools. Millennials are finally having kids and I think the even younger generation is having more kids too.
Point is 3 states could bring the national median down 10-20%. Looks awful. It's because it's dictated by coastal states. Focus on your state and county level values. If people are leaving, the higher end homes will lose the most and others will follow. If CA doesn't sell 300 $30M homes and cuts them to $20M, that moves the national median. Same with NYC. Condos and houses drop $5-10M median goes lower.
Thing is generally no one is losing in those markets. Sure they lost money but now the rest of the country feels like it's a crash and panic. The loans are good now for the most part. It's inventory and delinquencies to keep an eye on. Not national median.
5683
AmericanKulak
2024 Dec 22, 10:40am
AmericanKulak
2024 Dec 22, 10:40am
WookieMan says
I say that as well. Median SALE price is over pumped because top buyers who don't feel econ pressure can still buy, giving a false impression. Inventories are rising while closed sales are collapsing, distorting the reality. Lender Vigilantism going the opposite way of Fed rate cuts.
Rents and Time on Market and Average LIST price are better metrics.
Ignore national median is all I'll say.
I say that as well. Median SALE price is over pumped because top buyers who don't feel econ pressure can still buy, giving a false impression. Inventories are rising while closed sales are collapsing, distorting the reality. Lender Vigilantism going the opposite way of Fed rate cuts.
Rents and Time on Market and Average LIST price are better metrics.
5684
gabbar
2024 Dec 22, 12:47pm
gabbar
2024 Dec 22, 12:47pm
Where do we from here? Is this stagflation? I paid $16 for a sandwich yesterday. In Cleveland!
What are all the real estate agents, brokers, mortgage officers, home inspectors etc. doing and are going to be doing in the next few years? Layoffs in IT are happening and outsourcing is booming.
Since we are talking about FL in this thread. One family decided to sell their condo in FL and move back to Cleveland because they like the access to Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland! They plan to vacation in FL but the condo is sold.
What are all the real estate agents, brokers, mortgage officers, home inspectors etc. doing and are going to be doing in the next few years? Layoffs in IT are happening and outsourcing is booming.
Since we are talking about FL in this thread. One family decided to sell their condo in FL and move back to Cleveland because they like the access to Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland! They plan to vacation in FL but the condo is sold.
5685
FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden
2024 Dec 22, 12:51pm
gabbar says
America is struggling with being American vs selling america out to highest bidder.
Where do we from here? Is this stagflation? I paid $16 for a sandwich yesterday. In Cleveland!
What are all the real estate agents, brokers, mortgage officers, home inspectors etc. doing and are going to be doing in the next few years? Layoffs in IT are happening and outsourcing is booming.
America is struggling with being American vs selling america out to highest bidder.
5687
FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden
2024 Dec 22, 1:34pm
GNL says
no one knows. 2019 was falling off, so they did pandemic and mass bailouts to inflate economy. can never time it. last 2 years of 30% increased was all inflation driven.
So, when do the wheels fall off?
no one knows. 2019 was falling off, so they did pandemic and mass bailouts to inflate economy. can never time it. last 2 years of 30% increased was all inflation driven.
5689
FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden
2024 Dec 24, 10:21am
AD says
if it’s on a news it’s opposite of reality. news are always selling pump and dump schemes for the wealthy. they were screaming “buy now or price out forever” during actual bubble. and “it’ll never recover” when it collapsed. so that’s my opinion from life experience.
.
https://www.newsweek.com/us-housing-market-mirroring-2008-bubble-real-estate-analyst-2005520
.
if it’s on a news it’s opposite of reality. news are always selling pump and dump schemes for the wealthy. they were screaming “buy now or price out forever” during actual bubble. and “it’ll never recover” when it collapsed. so that’s my opinion from life experience.
5690
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Dec 24, 11:31am
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2024 Dec 24, 11:31am
FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says
This time the Blackrocks are getting fucked. And they own entire neighborhoods that they simply dump w/o regards to the normal considerations individual home owners contend with.
if it’s on a news it’s opposite of reality. news are always selling pump and dump schemes for the wealthy. they were screaming “buy now or price out forever” during actual bubble. and “it’ll never recover” when it collapsed. so that’s my opinion from life experience.
This time the Blackrocks are getting fucked. And they own entire neighborhoods that they simply dump w/o regards to the normal considerations individual home owners contend with.
5691
AD
2024 Dec 24, 12:14pm
AD
2024 Dec 24, 12:14pm
FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says
when the Patel's, Gupta's and Singh's buy with their LLCs , then you know you are close to bottom for housing market
a Singh bought this townhome recently , and they bought it with a LLC out of Boulder, Colorado
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1741-Annabellas-Dr-Panama-City-Beach-FL-32407/121153821_zpid/
.
AD says
.
https://www.newsweek.com/us-housing-market-mirroring-2008-bubble-real-estate-analyst-2005520
.
if it’s on a news it’s opposite of reality. news are always selling pump and dump schemes for the wealthy. they were screaming “buy now or price out forever” during actual bubble. and “it’ll never recover” when it collapsed. so that’s my opinion from life experience.
when the Patel's, Gupta's and Singh's buy with their LLCs , then you know you are close to bottom for housing market
a Singh bought this townhome recently , and they bought it with a LLC out of Boulder, Colorado
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1741-Annabellas-Dr-Panama-City-Beach-FL-32407/121153821_zpid/
.
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https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pimco-kiesel-called-housing-top-160339396.html?source=patrick.net
Bond manager Mark Kiesel sold his California home in 2006, when he presciently predicted the housing bubble would pop. He bought again in 2012, after U.S. prices fell more than 30% and found a floor.
Now, after a record surge in prices, Kiesel says the time to sell is once again at hand.