patrick.net

socal2 says

What has Russia gained to justify the massive loss of life?

Ukraine joining NATO is considered an existential threat. Sweden joining NATO is not. Even ex-Soviet Balkan republics joining NATO was not countered by Russia. Russia does not want to waste lives and treasure fighting this war, but the alterative is having Ukraine in an anti-Russian alliance and the Black Sea becoming a NATO lake.

socal2 says

When will it happen?

socal2 says

What does a Russian “win” look like?

Better yet, what does a Ukraine 'win' look like?

1. A complete retreat by Russia from all Ukraine territory that was gained by Russia during the war.

2. A Russian abandonment of the Crimea (as stated by the comedian Zelensky himself).

3. Ukraine officially joins NATO (Ukraine's often stated goal).

That's just for starters, and to quote Joe Biden, "guess what?" ... NONE of that is going to happen ... and "by the way," that's "not a joke."

RayAmerica says

What does a Russian “win” look like?

Everything up to and including Switzerland.

HeadSet says

Ukraine joining NATO is considered an existential threat. Sweden joining NATO is not

"Existential Threat" - what does that even mean?

Was Putin and his Oligarchs worried that Ukraine was going to invade and occupy crap-ass Russia or something? Please. Putin and Russia now face a real existential threat in their total failure to achieve their stated military goals that could end up with Putin's regime being overthrown from within like what happens every time Russia starts and loses a war.

If Russia could have managed a quick decapitation strike limiting the massive loss of life on both sides (like they did with Georgia and Crimea) - it would be a different story.

At this point, it is just Putin throwing more humans into the fire for absolutely nothing. Ukraine has every incentive to keep fighting to defend their homeland as any future with Russia in control of Ukraine would end up with alot of Ukrainians ending up in camps or firing squads.

All you mooks who claim to not be war mongers should be screaming from the rooftops for Putin to give this shit up and negotiate a peace deal.

socal2 says

"Putin and Russia now face a real existential threat in their total failure
to achieve their stated military goals that could end up with Putin's regime being
overthrown from within like what happens every time Russia starts and loses a war."

Nonsense. Russia defeated Ukraine massively and decisively and as a result Donbas
and all of Eastern Ukraine are now part of Russia. At this point, the entire Ukranian
military front has collapsed and the only option left for Ukraine is unconditional surrender.

socal2 says

"Existential Threat" - what does that even mean?

It means that Russia has watched NATO spread eastward and was about to incorporate Ukraine. Given Russia's history of being invaded by Europeans through Ukraine this is a legitimate concern. The last time Russia had a non-aggression pact with a European power they ended up fighting that power at the gates of Moscow. Victoria Nuland, et al, knew that threatening to incorporate Ukraine in NATO would prompt Russian military response and kept pushing. Had Russia not taken the bait, I suppose then Nuland would have prompted Japan to retake the Kirils and Sakhalin.

If you think that it is unreasonable for the Russians to fear NATO invasion through Ukraine, how about the absurdity that Russia invading Ukraine is just the first step to Russia conquering Europe?

HeadSet says

It means that Russia has watched NATO spread eastward and was about to incorporate Ukraine.

And what harm has that caused Russia other than having some healthier and richer nations next door they could sell energy to? Just imagine how much more secure and rich Russia would be today with all their pipelines and energy deals still in place with Europe if they didn't decide to invade Ukraine.

HeadSet says

The last time Russia had a non-aggression pact with a European power they ended up fighting that power at the gates of Moscow.

You mean when they made a deal with the Nazis to carve up Poland and they got double crossed? Were the Commies some sort of victim in WWII? Not exactly a great example to excuse Russia's murderous invasion of Ukraine.

The_Deplorable says

Nonsense. Russia defeated Ukraine massively and decisively

Yay! So the war is over?

No need for Russia to continue sustaining thousands of casualties each week to capture a few acres of tree lines and fallow fields? They already won "massively and decisively!"

Was it always in Putin's plan to have a grinding war like this going on for 4 years with almost no significant gains? Is that what a "massive and decisive" victory looks like when a huge country like Russia can't manage to pacify their smaller and weaker next door neighbor?

I can fully admit that Ukraine has struggled mightily to keep the battle lines largely stable and would be cooked without Western aid. But it is absolutely retarded to gaslight like you did above and just makes you look delusional or something worse.



https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/36a7f6a6f5a9448496de641cf64bd375

socal2 says

"But it is absolutely retarded to gaslight like you did above and
just makes you look delusional or something worse."

Who is winning territory in this war? Answer: Russia
Who is losing territory in this war? Answer: Ukraine
So... who is delusional here?

socal2 says

And what harm has that caused Russia other than having some healthier and richer nations next door they could sell energy to?

Joining NATO did not make those countries richer and better customers for Russia. It meant those countries combined forces with an anti-Russia alliance.

socal2 says

You mean when they made a deal with the Nazis to carve up Poland and they got double crossed? Were the Commies some sort of victim in WWII? Not exactly a great example to excuse Russia's murderous invasion of Ukraine.

Nobody said commies were innocent victims. My point is that even though Hiler and Stalin were good buddies (divided Poland and shook hands in the middle, had the Luftwaffe train in Russia before WW2, plus a non-aggression pact), Hitler still invaded Russia. Lesson for the Russians - when anyone from the West says they will not invade, even a supposed ally, don't believe them.

Putin is no angel; he is a ruthless dictator who has his opponents murdered as well as being the head of intelligence and the mafia. Not the issue. The West provoked the war by trying to bring Ukraine into NATO.

If the West were to declare Taiwan and independent nation, give it a seat in the UN, then push to form alliances outside of China, would that not provoke an invasion? Rightly or wrongly, China would consider such actions to be an attack on its territorial integrity.

socal2 says

And what harm has that caused Russia other than having some healthier and richer

^^^ perfect example of delusional cope right there.

If anything shows that our MIC is a mercenary army under the heel of the Brits..... Foreign secret agent man Blinken admitted that US was arming Ukraine many months before the conflict broke out. Another planned conflict.



https://thegrayzone.com/2024/11/16/uk-plot-keep-ukraine-fighting/

HeadSet says

"Putin is no angel; he is a ruthless dictator who has his opponents murdered..."

You are confusing Putin with Joe Biden.
How many times did Biden's Globalist Nazis try to assassinate Trump? Three? Four? Five times? How many?

The_Deplorable says

HeadSet says

"Putin is no angel; he is a ruthless dictator who has his opponents murdered..."

You are confusing Putin with Joe Biden.
How many times did Biden's Globalist Nazis try to assassinate Trump? Three? Four? Five times? How many?

No confusion at all, Biden is no angel either.

socal2 says

And what harm has that caused Russia other than having some healthier and richer nations next door

Even Trump gets what socal2 cannot:

https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/unconditional-saturday-january-11

One of the dumbest narratives we’ve been forced to tolerate for years, on pain of cancelation, until our brains bled, were the moronically oversimplified claims that Russia invaded Ukraine for no reason, Putin is a dictatorial madman, and my personal favorite, Russia hates democracy.

It’s simply marvelous how unquestioningly arrogant progressive elitists adopted these stupid slogans as if they were scientific truths. It tells you everything you need to know about progressivism. (Plus, I’m old enough to remember back when the left swooned over Russia and wanted to marry it. The irony.)

Even here on C&C, there are (were?) at least two (one?) reader accounts that loudly and regularly reinforced these oversimplified narratives in the comments. But on Tuesday, President Trump just shattered all the progressive permission structures and narrative is in a shambles.

Here’s what Trump told the seemingly unsurprised reporters:

"For many, many years, long before Putin, Russia said you could never have NATO involved with Ukraine. That’s been, like, written in stone.
It was always understood. They had a deal, and then Biden broke it. Somewhere along the line, Biden said no. They should be able to join NATO. They had a deal that would have been a satisfactory deal to Ukraine and everybody else. But then Biden said no, you have to be able to join NATO.
Well, then Russia has somebody right on their doorstep. And I can understand their feelings about that."

For many, many years, long before Putin, Russia said you could never have NATO involved with Ukraine. That’s been, like, written in stone.
It was always understood. They had a deal, and then Biden broke it. Somewhere along the line, Biden said no. They should be able to join NATO. They had a deal that would have been a satisfactory deal to Ukraine and everybody else. But then Biden said no, you have to be able to join NATO.
Well, then Russia has somebody right on their doorstep. And I can understand their feelings about that.

In other words, Trump wadded up the insane narrative of “unprovoked Russian aggression” and tossed it into the shredder. It’s gone, never to return. Russia was provoked. And Russia’s reaction was understandable. None of the reporters challenged him. The geopolitical significance of this one tiny, official admission of truth cannot be overstated.

Trump knew exactly what he was doing. He was doing diplomacy.

Obviously, the folks listening most intently to Trump’s comments were the Russians and the Ukrainians. Until this week, the Russians never heard a scrap of sympathy from the United States government. Not from Biden, Blinken, Sullivan, Austin, Nuland — none of them excreted a single ounce of diplomacy, never allowing for even a hint of legitimacy in Russia’s concern about NATO’s eastward expansion.

Instead, Team Biden was all about blamesmanship, passive-aggressive sabotage (e.g., Nordstream bombing), and childlike escalation (i.e., “he’s making me touch him!”).

The worst part is that the Ukrainians never even wanted to join NATO. A well-accepted but officially unconfirmed story says Britain’s former Prime Minister Boris Johnson went to Kiev right before the Ukrainians signed a peace deal with Russia in 2022. Johnson talked the Ukrainians into breaking off negotiations, probably by promising them every weapon in the NATO arsenal. That’s the ‘deal’ Trump referred to.

President Trump also shattered another narrative construct, merely by acknowledging another obvious truth, which was that Biden’s brinksmanship could be catastrophic.

Getting ass fucked by karma?

https://t.me/TheIslanderNews/30873