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Tax Reform?


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2006 Feb 28, 8:33am   12,342 views  111 comments

by HARM   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

A number of bloggers have criticized the current mortgage interest tax deduction as regressive and penalizing savers (as in, the higher your income tax bracket and the more interest you owe, the more you get back). Some have proposed modifying it to be more progressive or extending it to non-owners (i.e., jealous bitter renters).

Ray W Said:

If we are talking fair tax laws then how about a tax deferred savings where non home owners who would qualify as first time buyers can save and deduct just as if it were paying interest on a mortgage towards a down payment on a home. All money used for the down payment and closing costs would not be taxed but if the money is removed and used for anything else then taxes and penalties would be applied like it were 401k penalties.

If we are an ownership society why don’t we give people who currently don’t have the advantage of the mortgage deduction the ability to take advantage of using the same benefit towards saving to buy a home?

Others have debated the merits and possible consequences of replacing the current Byzantine federal income tax laws with a simpler no-loophole flat tax.

Randy H said:

The market does not solve all problems. I am about as close to a market fundamentalist as exists, but the market has a bad tendency to get caught in “local maxima” and not optimize for the greater good.

The consumption argument is that flat taxes disproportionately punish those who must consume a higher portion of their income/wealth to survive. Someone at poverty level is consuming 100% of their incomes to subsist. So $1 taxed from them is much more punishing than someone who consumes only 1% of their wealth to subsist. If you could figure out a way to make all staple consumption exempt in a flat tax system then I’d be on board. But otherwise you’re incentives are backwards (regressive). If you think people tend to unnecessarily rely upon welfare now, it would be worse in a flat-tax without threshold system.

What are the pros/cons of these proposals?
Given the massive amount of RE industry/mortgage/banking/pro-wealthy influence in Washington, would either of these proposals stand a chance of passing?

--HARM

#housing

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33   DinOR   2006 Feb 28, 11:45am  

Peter P,

Teeth and pavement do not mix. I can visualize NEW highways being fitted with the high technology you've been talking about but I just can't imagine how it would be retro-fit into existing roadways. Up here we have DEQ so when you go to get your pollution bill of clean health they can upgrade your car then?

34   DinOR   2006 Feb 28, 11:52am  

Harm,

Good point. I never thought about it that way but you're absolutelt right! We are indirectly subsidizing some putzes 2nd home. Hey, wait a minute, damn that ticks me off! Like I need another reason to hate serial homedebtors. Like Peter P and I were discussing earlier about taking advantage of mr. specuvestor mcdebtor amateur experiments in "self impalement"! I'm a big guy, I'm a sport and I know when to give people a break. These aren't those people.

35   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 11:52am  

I just can’t imagine how it would be retro-fit into existing roadways.

We can use a network of transponders, in-car GPS receivers, and overhead sensors/cameras. I am not worried about technical feasiblity. I am more worried about outcries over "privacy".

36   DinOR   2006 Feb 28, 11:59am  

Peter P,

O.K, more like trucking companies use to monitor their own employees progress on their deliveries. Not "mag" sensors installed in the actual roadway to actually control the vehicle?

37   DinOR   2006 Feb 28, 12:10pm  

I don't understand where all of the privacy issues would come in? It's Monday. It's 7:30am. We're all on our way to work, right?

38   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 12:12pm  

I don’t understand where all of the privacy issues would come in? It’s Monday. It’s 7:30am. We’re all on our way to work, right?

Right. But people will make the slippery slope argument because the technology will enable the government to track vehicles. I do not have problem with that, but many people have problems with everything.

39   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 12:16pm  

Actually, I think it is even possible to hook up the system to an anonymous payment system so that the privacy issue can be minimized.

But the cheapest way is to tax gasoline. ;) A $2/gallon tax should do wonder.

40   Randy H   2006 Feb 28, 12:39pm  


My favorite reasonable tax world? [...]

--Fewlesh

Very reasonably stated. Now if only we can get past all the self-interested incumbants.

41   Randy H   2006 Feb 28, 12:42pm  

I'd settle for starting with baby steps. How about we stop *both* subsidizing tobacco farmers *and* taxing cigarettes to [supposedly] compensate for smoking-related health costs.

42   HARM   2006 Feb 28, 12:54pm  

There are a lot of good proposals here. Anybody care to guess what the odds are of seeing any them realized within our lifetimes?

Aside from Bush's floating a couple of "tax refom" balloons, I haven't seen any concrete proposals, much less bills in the works. Unfortunately, whenever there's an organized vested interest that stands to lose money/power/influence, there is bound to be substantial opposition to ANY change, no matter how sensible.

43   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 1:12pm  

I hate HOV lanes. I am usually schlepping my kids around, and I drive a hybrid, so I am allowed to use them most of the time, but when I get into that nearly empty lane and start driving some moron always seems to want to swing into the lane six inches in front of my car from a dead stop. Everytime I am driving in one in somewhat crowded conditions and the HOV lane is moving faster than the others I am just waiting for that moron to decide to come on over.

I know what you are taling about. I never drive more than 40mph faster than the vehicle next to me.

Perhaps we need special seperaters like those in LA. :)

44   frank649   2006 Feb 28, 1:18pm  

"These are all public goods well worth the costs (assuming, of course, that they are well managed and government corruption is kept to a minimum). "

Well managed with minimal corruption?! Let's get real here.

45   frank649   2006 Feb 28, 1:26pm  

The real issue is total government spending, not tax reform.

46   Michael Holliday   2006 Feb 28, 2:06pm  

Every Gen X and Y'er should pay a special tax for a slush fund for Boomers called the D&Z fund: the Dope & Zep fund.

This way, every month, a check will come in the mail for Boomers to have a little extra scratch to buy a Zep CD and some home grown should they be upside down on their housing equity and credit cards.

Society will benefit because the Boomers will be pacified, a la Karl Marx's
"opiate of the masses."

A world of peace will be in the offing as Gen X and Y then go on to rebuild in the wake of the grand Boomer fiasco experiment gone awry.

If religion is the opium of the masses, then D&Z is the opiate of the Boomer asses!

47   KurtS   2006 Feb 28, 2:46pm  

Instead of an “inflexible” HOV lane, how about a “premium” lane that charges a higher rate during certain time. HOVs and other “incentivized” vehicles will be given free credit to use the lane. The idea is that we can use price to improve traffic flow more effectively.

Unless we see a stabilisation of metro populations (or at least commuters), commuter incentive lanes, or highway widening won't reverse bottleneck problems for very long. Even if everyone, someday drives a small, carbon-fibre hydrogen cell vehicle, traffic's still going to be a bitch. Then there's parking the thing. In the future, I suspect the solution will somehow be a combination of mass transport, telecommuting, and perhaps de-centralizing work centers. At some point, it looks like local governments will need to get involved to make things flow smoothly.

48   HARM   2006 Feb 28, 2:47pm  

Well managed with minimal corruption?! Let’s get real here.

Boy, and here I thought I was being cynical ;-) .
Well, I'm not that old (37) and even I can remember a time when California public schools and its university system (UC, Cal State) were the envy of the nation. I myself graduated from a public high school, and a great one at that --tons of AP/honors student who went on to college. Now we're right up there with Mississippi* (look out Arkansas* --we're closing on 'ya!).

*Advance apologies to anyone in those states who has a high regard for their local schools.

http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.03.html
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=6874

49   Unalloyed   2006 Feb 28, 3:13pm  

No more money for our schools. Since the 1970's their purpose has been to prepare the masses for a life of taxation and slavery. Don't think. Conform. Don't Question. Consume. Pay Taxes. Obey. .....Sleep. Come to think of it, the public school system prepares people to be the raw material needed for Realtorsâ„¢ to make a killing. If you can read this, curse a teacher.

50   Unalloyed   2006 Feb 28, 3:19pm  

Once you're in the Matrix, the jack into your brain feeds a signal that says, "Hey, you have rights! No taxation without representation. It also says, "Relax, sleep, your elected officials will represent you. Taxes are a good thing. Sleep." It's time to unplug from the grid.

51   HARM   2006 Feb 28, 4:00pm  

Also, get rid of deductions for employee benefits. Why should there be a tax break for employers and employees for health care, but not for unemployed people? Ditto for dental, life insurance, etc. None of those things should be managed by the employer — they should all be chosen by the employee outside of work, since they are not related to employment.

Ouch. Well, thanks to the magic of corporate benefit cram-downs, you may soon be getting your way, Scott.

I do see your logic in terms of separating benefits from employers; however, practically speaking it's very hard for most people to get adequate (and affordable) medical coverage as individuals vs. group coverage through an employer. I know this from personal experience, after going seven years as a contract employee --mostly without any medical insurance-- to FT with excellent coverage. If there were a way to effectively pool individuals to get decent coverage at group rates and to prevent insurance companies from cherry-picking/PEC screening, then I'd be inclined to agree.

52   HARM   2006 Feb 28, 4:04pm  

Last time I talk to a friend, she say that some of her client intentionally give themself HIV by sleeping with people they know to be HIV+. Why, because they get welfare, FREE HOUSING and the drug”alone” cost the state 10K per years.

. :!: 8O :!:

53   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 4:06pm  

Last time I talk to a friend, she say that some of her client intentionally give themself HIV by sleeping with people they know to be HIV+. Why, because they get welfare, FREE HOUSING and the drug”alone” cost the state 10K per years. If this thing grow, what out.

Such people should be exiled to an island.

54   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 4:09pm  

Unless we see a stabilisation of metro populations (or at least commuters), commuter incentive lanes, or highway widening won’t reverse bottleneck problems for very long.

It is very easy to solve. The solution is progressive electronic highway toll. Fees should be a function of speed, distance, and weight. We can solve the problem very quickly.

55   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 4:12pm  

Free housing because you contract an incurable disease? What is that all about?

The society cannot allow people to intentionally contract diseases just to get welfare.

Free housing will be provided in a penile colony. Food will be provided by the "elements" if available. Free mediations: cyanide or fugu poison.

56   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 4:20pm  

The problem is proving they got the disease intentionally. I can just see the lawyers lining up now to defend the “victims” so they can have their free housing.

True.

57   HARM   2006 Feb 28, 4:25pm  

WTF!!?? I find it hard to believe this is true (though I won't say it's impossible) What kind of free housing and welfare is worth getting AIDS for? Even if this were uber-liberal Sweden or Denmark, I can't imagine what government "reward" would be worth that!

58   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 4:29pm  

WTF!!?? I find it hard to believe this is true (though I won’t say it’s impossible) What kind of free housing and welfare is worth getting AIDS for? Even if this were uber-liberal Sweden or Denmark, I can’t imagine what government “reward” would be worth that!

HARM, HIV+ is not the same as AIDS. Perhaps SFWoman can shed some light on this subject.

I agree that people are completely out of their minds. Now I am more inclined to think that welfare recipients must first prove their cases.

59   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 4:35pm  

How about welfare reform? Welfare can be be merit-based. This way we can reduce the number of abuses. That said, we should instead put resource on improving labor utilization, thus solving the problem eventually.

60   HARM   2006 Feb 28, 4:35pm  

@Peter P,

AIDS vs. HIV+ - Yes, I know the difference, but HIV virus infection is the necessary pre-condition to developing full-blown AIDS. Thanks to modern medicine, you might or might not get it, but still...

@SQT,

But unfortunately, human beings never fail to do the incredibly stupid.

Truer words were never spoken. ;-)

61   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 4:40pm  

But I believe that eventually all those who become HIV positive will eventually have full blown AIDS.

I think we need more sexual education indeed. HIV is not quite that easy to transmit. If people remain faithful to one sexual partner and refrain from sharing needles, the disease can be contained. I will let SFWoman to be the expert.

62   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 4:42pm  

AIDS vs. HIV+ - Yes, I know the difference, but HIV virus infection is the necessary pre-condition to developing full-blown AIDS. Thanks to modern medicine, you might or might not get it, but still…

Very true. But many positives do not develop AIDS for many years. People are very shortsighted, otherwise, why was the demand for ARMs so great amid historically low interest rates?

63   HARM   2006 Feb 28, 4:44pm  

From Wikipedia:

Acquired immunodeficiency syndrome, or acquired immune deficiency syndrome (or acronym AIDS or Aids), is a collection of symptoms and infections resulting from the specific damage to the immune system caused by infection with the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).[1] It results from the latter stages of advanced HIV infection in humans, thereby leaving compromised individuals prone to opportunistic infections and tumors. Although treatments for both AIDS and HIV exist to slow the virus' progression in a human patient, there is no known cure.

64   Peter P   2006 Feb 28, 4:58pm  

California need to build more house for its population or this will become a big problem.

Perhaps relaxing zoning regulations will help. On the other hand, welfare reform will solve many problems (yes, illegal immigration too) in the long run.

65   DinOR   2006 Feb 28, 11:11pm  

Scott,

What ABOUT savings plans? I could think of about a million reasons to defend the status quo! (Then again) I can think of about TWO million reasons why you are RIGHT! It's gotten completely out of control and if anything it's getting worse every year. I actually have to attend "CE" (Continuing Education) at least twice a year for a total of 40 hours. This is just to keep up with the CHANGES. Sacred Cow cost? Beyond estimation! Let's see, there's the DOL, EBSA (formerly PBGC) they had to drop the guarantee part, ERISA and annual 5500 filing. All of this infrastucture costs money! Money that should be in the plan, not admin. expenses. This has become an industry unto itself and it has it's own language. They also have intrepters (called TPA's) or Third Party Administrators, yes they also charge a fee. Many in the industry are actually excited about THE NEW ROTH 401K. It's all about anything new to go out there and sell the same limited number of active retirement plans "something new". It's the industry that wants all the changes, not the employers. Because individual or rollover IRA money is no longer considered "sticky assets" (after much of it was liquidated to participate in the housing boom) only 401K dollars provide a reliable revenue stream and that is why we are seeing such a pitched battle for those dollars. We're adrift.

66   DinOR   2006 Feb 28, 11:52pm  

Harm,

"corporate benefit cram downs"

Is that an actual term people in the work force are using? If we're not, we should! It describes the scenario at my wife's employer to the "T". There was a time when the "package" was the package. Now they have us all conditioned to accept this notion of "this years benefit package". We're trying to get weened off of "their" package and start our own HSA (Health Savings Account) but it quickly distills down to this "chicken or the egg" kind of a deal. You have to abandon your company sponsored plan and set up a HDHP (High Deductible Health Plan) and pay those premiums right away! Well, how about we set up the HSA first, gut it out for a year and THEN set up the HDHP? No can do son. Now what? Is this "the sleeves from the vest" or what!

67   inquiring mind   2006 Mar 1, 1:02am  

FYI Another glowing report just released this morning from the Federal Office of Housing Oversight:

http://www.ofheo.gov/media/pdf/4q05hpi.pdf

68   DeoVindice   2006 Mar 1, 1:04am  

Randy H: Whadday say we do tequila Thurs March 9th? Bidness takes me away from SF for the rest of the week.

Sorry for the absence (or perhaps, you're welcome).

Regarding DBC: IT is heavily waited towards oil (50%). Why not just own high yield energy plays? How about making your own mutual fund that tracks commodities that pays a high yield, and no management fees?

Here's my try:

FDG, PWI, E, PCU, DSX, DUK, VZ.

This mix gives me exposure to Coal, Nat Gas, Diversified energy production, Foreign currencies, Copper and other base metals, Silver, an indirect play on bulk shipped dry commodities, a play on the collapse of the communist system (Duk benefits as high income blue staters flee for protection) and VZ has a good yield, and is in a different type of commodity bidness. Afterall, Enron used to trade bandwidth like energy, so why not?

You could leave off DUK and VZ and have a true high yield fund. I like the added stability. You could swap in WY or even ADM if you want to be strict about it.

--Deo V

69   lunarpark   2006 Mar 1, 2:26am  

OT - but the YOY CAR sales price numbers are out. Cupertino had a 6% decrease YOY, Mountain View .7%.

As you were.

70   edvard   2006 Mar 1, 2:27am  

To me, the problem that arises from a income tax that categorizes those who are wealthy and those who are not is the big question: "what signifies a wealthy citizen?" I say this due to the massive increase in housing prices in key area like the Bay Area that make someone making over 100k a year more akin to a lower to somewhat mid-middle income citizen here, while having a completely diffrent status in any other state or spread out counties in the state. This has all occured in the last 5 years, and just like the term " low-income housing", the definition has been vastly altered. If you are going to tax someone based on their wealth, then you need to have a more organic model that takes costs of living and updated status for those who were formerly well off, now finding themselves not so well off. Tax the "wealthy" of circa 2001, and this will cause economic stagnation.

72   HARM   2006 Mar 1, 2:52am  

@lunarpark,

Thanks for the numbers! SF, Marin, SD & San Benito Counties all in single digits now, Placer the only one neagtive. I'm actually surprised at the number of areas still posting strong double-digit YoY gains, but then watching the housing market reverse is like watching grass grow. I believe this will be a long, slow-mo crash much like the last one, which took 7 years to fully bottom out.

@DinOR,

I wish I could take credit for "cram-down", but it's actually a term that's been in use by the media for some time.

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