patrick.net

FYI: Full text of STRIVE Act here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.1645:

Have not had a chance to review it yet, so I cannot offer an opinion.

Wow... unmanned aerial surveillance and biometric entry/exit system! How Orwellian!

Am I the only one who is paranoid enough to think that these technologies could just as easily be used to keep people from leaving the US as from coming?

What are guess workers?

Am I the only one who is paranoid enough to think that these technologies could just as easily be used to keep people from leaving the US as from coming?

If you do nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.

Ok, the fact that NCLR --a racist anti-American, pro-Aztlan lobbying group-- likes the bill already says volumes about it:

http://www.hispanictips.com/2007/03/22/nclr-welcomes-introduction-strive/

“The National Council of La Raza NCLR, the largest national Hispanic civil rights and advocacy organization in the U.S., today applauded Representatives Luis Gutierrez D-IL and Jeff Flake R-AZ for taking a bold step forward and introducing the bipartisan “Security Through Regularized Immigration and a Vibrant Economy Act of 2007” STRIVE Act. The bill was introduced today at a news conference on Capitol Hill.

“This is an important step forward on the road to comprehensive immigration reform,” stated Janet Murguía, NCLR President and CEO. “The time is now for Congress to act, and we are heartened by the number of legislators on both sides of the aisle deeply committed to producing a realistic solution to our immigration problems.”

What are guess workers?

People who come in and do jobs that few Americans will do at the market price. Such jobs (gardeners, maids, other hired helpers) may disappear altogether if there are no provisions for these guest workers.

Who determines what is considered wrong?

Someone must. The cost of not making such determinations is higher than that of making wrong determinations occasionally.

Hopefully, the enforcement portion of the bill will deliver what it promises. Employment verification is the single most important item.

Not if welfare is sufficiently scaled back and people would HAVE to work at these jobs. Employers would also HAVE to pay fair wage scales for these jobs.

No. They will just act like cry babies and good-hearted people of this state will put welfare right back on.

Employers are folks like you! If hired helps are too expensive, you will just do it yourself. Worse quality of life for you. Lower employment level for the society. BAD!

I am all for eliminating welfare though.

People who come in and do jobs that few Americans will do at the market price. Such jobs (gardeners, maids, other hired helpers) may disappear altogether if there are no provisions for these guest workers.

Peter P,

"Market price" for labor is highly dependent upon available supply of cheap unskilled labor, which has exploded largely due to our government's own deliberate non-enforcement/look-the-other-way policy regarding immigration over the past 40 years or so.

There are plenty of countries where citizens and legal residents "do those jobs" and manage to earn a decent wage and benefits. On my recent trip to New Zealand, I was amazed to see white faces behind the counters (and even in kitchens) at fast food restaurants, cleaning hotel rooms, mowing lawns, and collecting garbage. This was also true here in the USA not that long ago.

HARM, I agree. But we still have to deal with this mess now. :(

I also think that a viable guess worker program will allow enforcement programs (like deportation) more politically acceptable in the future. When there is a reasonable for people to come clean, there is no excuse for them not to. Return to sender.

It's true that some jobs that heavily depend upon back-breaking, low-skill "stoop labor" (literally) will disappear if illegal immigration were severely curbed, this is true. And you know what? Good riddance. These are miserable low-paying jobs anyway, and would be quickly be replaced by better jobs filled by citizens and legal immigrants.

Quite a few jobs here --especially in agriculture-- would long ago have turned to mechanical harvesting, robotics and other forms of automation, if it were not for the steady flood of ultra-cheap stoop labor. Check out harvesting in Oz, NZ, or Europe to get some idea. But, instead of creating tens of thousands of new high-wage, high-skill jobs that might have raised lots of people out of poverty and provided them a path into the middle class, we instead created hundreds of thousands of coolie jobs that keep these people firmly rooted in poverty.

HARM, I agree. But what are we going to do with the massive illegals population?

1. Deportation - politically unacceptable
2. Legalization - moral hazard
3. No nothing - likely option

Guess worker: "Today, I guess I'll work....tomorrow, maybe not...."

I think the typo is appropriate actually. For many of these laborers, their identity is indeed anyone's guess. Their living standards, health care, wages, ... list goes on, is all very iffy as a 'guess' worker.

I have known quite a few immigrants (legal and otherwise) over the nearly 4 decades I've lived here, most of them very hard-working and decent people. I understand how Byzantine and difficult the current system is, and how it all but encourages fraud to get around the myriad roadblocks to citizenship.

I sympathize with the plight if those who want to immigrate legally and simply want better opportunities to become productive Americans. I am not against constructive immigration reform, but I am very skeptical of any kind of blanket amnesty that more-or-less rewards chronic lawbreaking, while giving law-abiding immigrants and citizens the shaft.

The STRIVE Act *appears* to address many of these concerns and contains a number of enforcement provisions. However, so have previous attempts at immigration "reform", which later turned out to be paper tigers. The question is, will any of these strict provisions actually be enforced/funded, or will they be conveniently discard once the bill passes? The government's historical track record on this is not good.

Not trying to pick a fight but I believe you have got to keep the government in check.

I know. I am a libertarian too. :)

Guess worker: “Today, I guess I’ll work….tomorrow, maybe not….”

:lol:

The question is, will any of these strict provisions actually be enforced/funded, or will they be conveniently discard once the bill passes?

The enforcement portion is the most important part. I suggest an informant network. Offending employers will be isolated and penalized. The penalty proceed will be shared by the People and the informants.

-discard
+discarded

Spellcheck doesn't always catch everything

I am not against constructive immigration reform, but I am very skeptical of any kind of blanket amnesty that more-or-less rewards chronic lawbreaking, while giving law-abiding immigrants and citizens the shaft.

I agree.

The huge illegals population also illustrates that the market is somehow distorted by over-regulation.

Hey, I thought we would be talking about the impact on the housing market. :)

Doesn't "more illegal" immigrants mean lower housing prices in that the cost of housing production is lower?

On the other hand, I guess they need a place to live too... but then again the ones building houses probably aren't competing with us to buy a place in Mountain View.

What IF google starts hiring previously undocumented workers and give them stocks?

Besides, the bill also proposes a sharp increase in the quota for skilled workers.

What IF google starts hiring previously undocumented workers and give them stocks?

Besides, the bill also proposes a sharp increase in the quota for skilled workers.

I guess I should've read the bill first.

Oh crud. Just what we need, more housing/school district obsessed, sacrifice everything, frugal living, first gen immigrants.

Why can't we have second gen immigrants only? :)

Why can’t we have second gen immigrants only?

No, we should have renting homeowners instead. :)

Oh crud. Just what we need, more housing/school district obsessed, sacrifice everything, frugal living, first gen immigrants.

Perhaps instead of a wage requirements for skilled workers there should be quality-of-life requirements instead.

For example, it can be required that all immigrants have at least one SUV, one house with pergraniteels, and two plasma TVs. :)

Seriously, the best way to protect American workers is to ensure that incoming immigrants have similar quality of life compared to their local counterparts. Isn't that the idea of the melting pot anyway?

Seriously, the best way to protect American workers is to ensure that incoming immigrants have similar quality of life compared to their local counterparts. Isn’t that the idea of the melting pot anyway?

When I lived in the East Coast, it was clearly a melting pot.

Here, it's more like a TV dinner. Ethnic Group A lives in Zone 1, Ethnic Group B lives in Zone 2, etc. They rarely interact because all they do is drive from home to work and back - oh, and sometimes at Valley Fair.

For example, it can be required that all immigrants have at least one SUV, one house with pergraniteels, and two plasma TVs.

Well, that's stretching it. But maybe we should mandate vacations. They have to go somewhere on vacation for a week - and it can't be Mumbai, Taipei, Shenzen, Beijing, Shanghai, Islamabad, Moscow, Tahoe, or Monterey. It has to be Disney World (FL), Washington DC, New York, Boston, or Coastal Virginia. Maybe Las Vegas...

HARM Says:

> The question is, will any of these strict provisions actually
> be enforced/funded, or will they be conveniently discard
> once the bill passes?

We will not see any change any time soon since:

1. Most liberals feel sorry for the illegals and don’t want to send them home.
2. Most liberal politicians know that they pick up votes from illegals so they do nothing to stop them.
3. Most conservative small business owners like illegals since the work hard.
4. Most conservative politicians get most of their money from business owners and may talk tough on illegal immigration to keep the rank and file happy but do nothing to stop it.

This is why the guest worker program is essential in making immigration enforcement politically acceptable.

Immigrants are not the enemy. The enemy is "big gub'ment."

If we didn't insist on maintaining a welfare state, publicly financed healthcare, compulstory education, etc., then the tax burden of immigration would be negligible. In spite of what some people think, immigrants do not come to the US for our healthcare system or our educational system. They come for work. There should be a way for them to work legally in the US by agreeing to opt out of publicly financed benefits. If they commit a crime, then they would lose this privilege.

Most immigrants would take the deal.

There should be a way for them to work legally in the US by agreeing to opt out of publicly financed benefits. If they commit a crime, then they would lose this privilege.

I agree. Welfare must be scrapped.

There also needs to be a way to prosecute small business (cash business) owners for tax evasion.

How about a limited amnesty for illegals who rat out their employers for underpaying tax?

If we have to go back to doing our own yardwork we wouldn’t have to excercise in airconditioned gyms while reading people magazine.

Why? I have better things to do than yardwork and housework.

The immigration law is not very lax. However, the enforcement is not very strict. There must be ways for the good people to assist in enforcement. Perhaps a border watch program for neighborhoods?

Peter, how much do you pay your help to do those things?

I do not have a house or a yard. :-P

moderate infidel, (OT)

I've said that many times over the last several months. The bubble allowed everyone feeding at the REIC trough to move up at least one rung. Guys that did handyman/remodeling became contractors and flippers. Guys that did fixer-uppers became developers and sales assistants became mortgage brokers and so on. And at such a dizzying pace they barely understood their last job before getting further out of their depth.

I don't have anything against advancement (it's a good thing) but it's as if they all knew this wouldn't last forever and were trying to bang on it for all it was worth. How many stories have we heard about 20 year old MB's that were fluffing loans AND condo flipping or whatever?

Someone please create a new thread! I am boring the living daylight out of everyone.