patrick.net

Skibum,

Okay, I can buy leasing and hiring an accountant as time saving. But I also find a lot of just plain conspicuous consumption. Though I find this to be much more the case in China than in this country.

The other problem with the time is money argument is that these people often miscalculate the actual value of time after taxes transaction costs. More often than not, it does end up as justification for spending more than necessary.

The backlash is coming in the form of things like the “slow food” movement. Time is money is more true than you think.

But food is different, because we live to eat.

Nomadtoons,

Well, you've also got to admit that sometimes expensive stuff is just plain nicer than cheap stuff. For example, I wore shoes from Payless and KMart for years. Now I wear work shoes that are really expensive, they cost around $250 per pair. Why? Becuase they fit better and last longer than the cheap shoes. Expensive shoes actually come in all the sizes, for one thing. Addidas does not offer a 7 1/2 EEE, for instnace, but Allen-Edmonds does. If I wanted to get a shoe that was wide enough, I used to have to buy a 9 and wear something that was almost two sizes too long. Moreover, the nice shoes last longer than the cheap ones. Believe it or not, they last five or six times as long as the $100 shoes, so the $250 shoes are actually much, much cheaper in the long run. And during all that time, they don't give you blisters and look a lot nicer. The idea of buying $250 shoes probably sounds crazy to my HS classmates, but in this case they really should go out and buy them too. They are cheaper in the long run.

And sometimes nice stuff is just plain nice. It may not be a good value, like the shoes, but it's still very nice. Now, you and I know that there is no real difference between a BMW 330i and a Kia Optima. Both will get you to work, and the Kia may actually even be a little more reliable these days. But a BMW is one hell of a lot nicer to drive. It's not just an image thing. The suspension is tuned differently, the steering is about a thousand times more responsive, there is more pickup, and the interior is a hell of a lot nicer. Is it worth an additional $20,000? Maybe not to you. But a BMW is nicer than a Kia, no question about it, no ambiguity. You may not value a BMW, but the people who do really are getting a nicer car for the extra money, they are not senselessly throwing it away.

Finally, nice stuff is just more enjoyable sometimes. I am trying to get into shape and recently bought a mountain bike. It cost $1,200 and was worth every penny. (The housing bubble gives us the perverse freedom to waste money on frivilous things like this.) It weighs about half as much as a Wal-Mart bike and is a whole lot tougher as well. I never have to hesitate before riding down a steep hill, becuase I know the bike will not let me down. About a month ago I did 70 miles in one day. It would have been possible to do this on a Wal-Mart bike, but not nearly as easy. In this case, a more expensive bike really is more enjoyable. Someone who is not a car person might not notice the difference between a BMW and a Kia, but I guarantee that everyone would like my bike better than a Wal-Mart bike, the experience is just plain better on the nice bike, you can go faster and do more.

"That’ why I spend hours reading this blog…"

LOL, I think of it as group therapy. (did I just give the webmaster a reason to start charging us?)

LOL, I think of it as group therapy.

Some may think that this is a support group for jealous, bitter, gold-hoarding renters though. :)

Skibum-

Re: Kia. LOL!

The thing about trade schools that worries me is that I know they would break down along class lines. The children of doctors and lawyers (maybe we need to come up with new professions to serve as synonyms for the wealthy -- mortgage brokers and flippers?) will never get funnled into becoming plumbers, while conversely the children of plumbers will seldom get funnled into becoming doctors and lawyers. There would be a few tokens, but 99% of the kids born in a certain area would never be able to escape. I guarantee this would happen.

There would be a few tokens, but 99% of the kids born in a certain area would never be able to escape. I guarantee this would happen.

It is all in the stars. They will thrive if they are meant to.

SFWoman, Newsfreak-

I know, I know, but I am telling you, the odds are against it. There are always a few exceptions to every rule. BTW, SFWoman, I too know a SF family with a son who became a cop -- we probably are talking about the same people.

The deck is going to be stacked against the poor kids under that sort of system. I went to a public high school that never, ever sent kids to Ivy League schools. There are public high schools that send dozens of kids to Ivy League schools each and every year.

It is hard enough for kids to buck the system these days without being sent to a "vocational" school. If you start tracking kids at an early age like that, you are going to stack the deck against them even more. "Separate" is not "equal," there are no two ways about it. In theory I have no problem with what you are saying but in practice I know it would not work.

@Joe Schmoe as a fellow member of the duck feet society, (12 EEEE) I second your opinion of Allen Edmonds, plus they resole the shoes for $100.00 Only pair of dress shoes I've ever had that fit. MMMM fit.

you have it backwards.. We don’t live to eat, we eat to live. We live to procreate. Darwinism and all (we’re just a bunch of animals, after all…)

True, we eat to live, but just to eat more. :)

What Darwinism? Don't you believe in creationism?

Food should feed the soul as well as the body.

Exactly.

Scott,
I'm not a fan of Gary Danko's - Chez Panisse still does it best in my book. It is true, however, that there's a distinct foodie-cultism in the BA that doesn't exist in most other places.

Joe,
To me I don't think there are many things, both nice or crappy that are built well enough for my tastes. For example, the table fan in my kitchen is from the 30's. It has a base made of cast iron. The motor has replaceable brushes and bearings. The cord is heavy duty, the knob is bakelite, and it still works like new. Cost to me: $5 at a yard sale. My car, a 1955 Mercury has 340k on the speedometer, has a gigantic V8 that makes it accelerate like a bat out of hell, and I can fix anything on it in less than 30 minutes and 50 bucks. It's now 51 years old and I recently restored it, so perhaps it'll go another 50.I can guarantee that this car gets way, way more attention and smiles than any 70k Bimmer. All the furniture I own is from the turn of the century, picked up off the street, flea markets, and so forth. Most of the stuff I see- even the expensive stuff, like a $400 coffee looks like crap to me. It won't be around in 10 years either.
But.. I'll stop and be dead honest. If someone walked over and gave me a few mil, would I buy that Cadillac STS sedan with the nice 400HP turbo charged engine, bose stereo system, magnetically controlled suspension system? Probably.
I'm in emergency saving mode as we speak. I could easily buy a fully loaded toyota truck with all the trimmins', or buy some really nice clothes. I could also probably really stretch for a 6 month world tour. But I don't because I'm a married guy caught in the middle of a dilemena where the future isn't looking that great due to our inability to afford basic ameneties like housing. If things were better, I might indulge in some of those nice things.

Besides I’ve been to expensive restaurants (mostly because my parents like those places, so when they come visit SF they go out alot), and most are disappointing, including Gary Danko’s — I don’t know how you guys can rave on about that one so much.

I have yet to try Gary Danko's. What is wrong with it?

Simple foods are also soul-feeders. A perfect tomato with some crunchy Malden salt sprinkled on top? A bowl of ripe raspberries? A tart, crisp apple and a wedge of sharp cheddar cheese? Perfect guacamole? A boiled lobster, some corn and boiled potatoes and melted butter (leave the white bits in the butter, please!)?

Yum! Boiled lobster. I now crave a 3-pound Maine lobster.

I’m not a fan of Gary Danko’s - Chez Panisse still does it best in my book. It is true, however, that there’s a distinct foodie-cultism in the BA that doesn’t exist in most other places.

My global favorite is currently Kaygetsu in Menlo Park. Their Japanese cuisine is very well executed. Their sashimi is fresh and flavorful.

After 7 courses you will still be refreshed.

A boiled lobster, some corn and boiled potatoes and melted butter (leave the white bits in the butter, please!)?

Butter? Somehow I do not usually like too much butter. If I want a heart-healthy mean I go for olive oil. If not I want lard!

Lard tastes so good. :)

Peter P,
I haven't been there - definitely will give it a look-see. That's the one in Sharon Park, eh? I've heard really good things about it. I can actually go there for lunch from work with a 5min drive, if I can ever find the time.

I haven’t been there - definitely will give it a look-see. That’s the one in Sharon Park, eh? I’ve heard really good things about it. I can actually go there for lunch from work with a 5min drive, if I can ever find the time.

They have very good lunch deals.

I recommend the eel rice bowl. Their unagi is very nice. If you like sushi, they have a set lunch with 10 pieces of nigiri at 25%+ discount over dinner price.

Please don't tell too many people. I do not want to have to make reservations too far in advance.

SFwoman,
I've lived in Boston, NY, TN, CA, and been to Europe, Mexico, Ireland, plus I have driven across the country. Twice. I'm well aware of what exsists around me.Probably more so than many of my California contemporaries. Perhaps that's what gives me a diffrent perspective on life.I've lived in more places than just the coasts. I've lived in the middle, out there, and in big cities, small towns, big suburbs and college campuses.I've experienced people who hate anything new, and people who hate anything old. I've met people with political viewpoints that differ from my own. I have blended into the areas that I've lived in. I've experienced the social variety of the country and feel sorry for those that haven't. That's why I scoff a lot around here at the thought that people are so willing to spend so much money to live here because they haven't seen what other possibilities abound outside the borders of the state.
I don't claim to believe that TN is better than CA,Nor CA better than anywhere else.I might stay, I might move, I might go to any number of other states. On the same token, time, money, economics, and our own upbringing bear into the decisions we make, and CA for the time period is rather hostile to younger folks.If TN were also expensive, then I would make the same conclusion and look elsewhere besides TN.
Perhaps there are things about the Bay Area and CA that I have yet to realize that would make me feel that the ridiculous expense is worth it, but I have yet to come to that conclusion.

Perhaps there are things about the Bay Area and CA that I have yet to realize that would make me feel that the ridiculous expense is worth it, but I have yet to come to that conclusion.

Mostly food and weather. Las Vegas has good food but weather sucks. Seattle should have good food and weather (I do not mind overcast and rain). I may take a look there.

As a country girl, although I know from previous threads you do not like sweets, lard makes the best pie crust.

Lard is truly amazing. You can even use it to cook veggies.

I can actually go there for lunch from work with a 5min drive, if I can ever find the time.

Lunch is rather quick there (less than 40 minutes) at around 11:30. If you order sushi when they are busy (after 12:30) there can be big delays.

Perhaps a volume of Peter P’s food memoirs would sell well.

Perhaps I should do just that. :) Too bad my cooking is horrible.

Peter P,
I don't like unagi, but love all forms of raw seafood - I'm a sucker for really good uni or scallop. RE: Lard, as an MD, I really shouldn't recommend it (I have to reveal, in fact, that I am a cardiologist, no less), but damn, lard tastes good! Take everything in moderation, though, and you should generally be fine.

I don’t like unagi, but love all forms of raw seafood - I’m a sucker for really good uni or scallop.

Sorry, but I guess you will have to relocate to Hokkaido then. :)

Nevertheless, their uni and hotate are pretty good. I love raw seafood too, especially raw shellfishes, except oysters.

Amazed,
Ya, I vent here, and that's probably not very pleasant for the people on the blog. I guess we actually do have ot pretty good. We had some friends come down from Seattle this weekend. The job situation isn't that great up there, and they were living in a not so great condo complex. All weekend they told us how great our rental house was, and in retrospect, it is. We have a yard, garage, lemon and orange trees, and a safe neighborhood. That and we don't pay much to live there. Heck- one of the housemates is leaving, but the cost is still less than if we got out own place, so we suddenly have 2 extra rooms.. to do whatver we want with. After they left I did think... Gee, we're pretty well off compared to a LOT of people we know, and they all rent too. I sometimes think we're better off than some who bought.
Anyhow, sorry for all the venting.I'll try harder to keep it under control.

Peter P,
Why not oysters? You probably don't like Zuni's then? On the other hand, how about BBQ'ed oysters with Everett and Jones sauce on them - mmmm

After this extreme recession/depression begins to unfold in the coming months and we suffer through a time of poverty, we will begin the healing process. How the US emerges from this may be drastically different from how it is today. And in my opinion, change isn’t always a bad thing. In fact, I’m looking forward to it, and just about none of my reasons include money.

I'll second (or third?) that. I've seen a lot of gloom-and-doom in this thread about how awful it would be if the Fed were to "allow" the market to self-correct, resulting in much lower RE prices. And yet this kind of large-scale, "paradigm shift" away from the Debt=Wealth model is exactly what thic country needs, IMO.

Frankly I question whether or not RE price collapse in the bubbliest markets would even be that bad extreme for mosts states (many of which are not experiencing a bubble). And why would a return to sensible lending/home prices be so "awful"?

Awful for WHOM exactly?
--The specuvestor/flippers who incited the bidding wars and priced working class families out of the market here?
--The sub-prime mortgage lenders who provided the no-doc toxic credit to the specuvestors, enabling them to start bidding wars?
--The GSEs and FCBs who assumed most of the default risk for sub-prime mortgage lenders, so they could extend unlimited credit to any flipper with a pulse?
--The daytraders-turned-Realt-whores?

Why should I feel any pity for these groups whatsoever? The only group I do feel sympathy for are the honest decent working class people who --through no fault of their own-- got hoodwinked into this massive shell game out of ignorance of market economics. They just listened to the MSM and self-appointed industry "experts" and sadly are going to get f@cked along with the flippers.

But even the fact that the innocent will suffer along with the guilty is no reason not to let the bubble implode under it's own weight. The consequences of trying to "soften" the crash will only prolong the pain for many, while continuing to allow the massive mis-allocation of capital to continue. The faster and harder the crash, the quicker the return to market sanity and the better for all concerned.

Why not oysters? You probably don’t like Zuni’s then? On the other hand, how about BBQ’ed oysters with Everett and Jones sauce on them - mmmm

Somehow I do not like the taste, smell, and texture of an oyster. BBQ seafood sounds good! I want mine with mayo.

nomad, newsfreak,
I read somewhere (the Chronic-le?) about this website:

http://www.fallenfruit.org/

It maps public parks, etc that have fruit trees that people have found with edible fruit. You can just use the map to find free produce. Someone needs to do this for the BA!

I agree with the "get it over with quickly" sentiment. And while I hope that many of the "honest decent working class people" learn from the experience, I suspect that's too much to hope for. And this is why:

A *huge* proportion of people cannot make *correct and accurate*
generalisations of principles. They have to learn everything as if
it's an unrelated piece of crap, BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID! PEOPLE ARE
STUPID! -- Thorfinn

Before anyone jumps on me for attacking working class people, let me say that I think the above applies to all classes. I personally take the "specialization is for insects" attitude.

// Just hoping that the damage is mostly contained to the truly deserving.

Peter P Says:

BBQ seafood sounds good! I want mine with mayo.

Have you been to Kirala in Berkeley? They have a robata bar, and they have these baby lobster tails grilled with some kind of mayo topping - so good!

Completely OT,
But did anyone else see this headline on CNN.com and bust a gut?

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/09/news/economy/oil_gasprices/index.htm

"Bracing for Summer Gas Pains"

Ouch - get out the Beano!

New thread: Housing Bubble Pre-Flight Checklist

Karmic Bubble Correction

I am going to consult my astrologer.

HARM-

Hear, hear.

I am in an exceptionally foul mood today, so I will say something extremely mean-spirited: I don't even feel that sorry for the blue collar homeowners.

Sure, they are financially unsophisticated. Sure, they were getting a lot of bad advice from older friends and relatives ("real estate always goes up," "I couldn't afford to buy my own house," blah, blah, blah.)

They don't know who Ben Bernake is, what the LIBOR rate is, or whether their ARM will adjust.

But each and every one of them knows that $600,000 is A LOT OF MONEY. More than they can afford. And when someone offers to lend them that much, they all know that something smells fishy. But they are holding their noses and signing on the dotted line anyway.

They also know that debt=bad.

Everyone has heard of the concept of a 20% down payment. And ain't none of them putting down no 20%.

Interestingly, the people I feel a little bit sorry for are the 20-somethings and the FOB immigrants. These people have very little experience with the US economy. Heck, you tell a kid in his early 20's that he can afford a $450,000 condo, and he'll probably believe you. Same goes for the FOB immigrants.

But your average Joe Sixpack buying a $400k tract home in Ontario, and then "cashing out" some equity to get a new Tahoe and a flat screen TV -- these people are just stupid.

I hope they all suffer.

I hope they all suffer.

Why hurt your karma by wishing harm on other people? What needs to happen will happen.

I do, however, avoid hydrogenated fats and high fructose corn syrup and I’ve never smoked. But you’ll have to pry that butter out of my cold, dead hands.

@SFWoman,
You are absolutely 100% dead-on correct. If everyone followed this tiny piece of advice, there would be no obesity/diabetes epidemic here.

But you’ll have to pry that butter out of my cold, dead hands.

I like flavored (e.g. herb, anchovy) butter.

High fructose corn syrup? It is something we should uninvent.

@newsfreak,

"Karmic Bubble Correction" has been added to the Housing Bubble Glossary