patrick.net

Garth Farkley,

Yep, anti-globalisation/greenpeace activists do come off like the PETA of labor/climate change/nuclear non-proliferation.

I haven't made a serious study of the issue ( notice how I used a movie as my major piece of supporting evidence? :P ). However, from what I read, evidence of global warming are quite a bit more established than that it doesn't exist.

That's also what my eyes tell me. I have a great love of lofty snowy mountains and counts reading mountaineering history as one of my hobbies. I can tell you that current pictures of these mountains often show substantially fewer snow fields and glacier than ones taken just decades earlier. There's now almost no snow on Mt. Kilimanjaro. These are glaciers and snow fields that have been around since at least the end of the little ice age, and in higher latitudes glaciers, for tens of thousands of years.

Given the complex nature of climate systems, we still have no concrete way to model the changes that these melting snowcaps will have. At the very least, a lot of people who used to depend on snow melt for irrigation will soon be unable to live off their land. This is a major concern for everybody, and the current administration's denial of any and all ecology related problems makes me sick.

Nomadtoons2,

I know a couple instances where people either finished college and then went to trade school or dropped out of college and went to trade school. It still happens. I do wish fewer people are pushed into law school though, I find law school is just as capable of muddling minds as clearing them up.

I think of lawyers to law as stockbrokers to stock. Take what you will out of that analogy.

Nomadtoons-

I agree. But I still think everyone should go to college. Education is enriching. It makes life more interesting. We all benefit from having a well-educated, well-informed populace.

I wonder how long it will take before college educated people start joining the trades after they graduate.

This is already happening in several fields. Lots of formerly blue-collar jobs now require a college degree. Take nurses, for example. When my mom became a nurse, she went to nursing school, not college. Today most nurses have bachelor's degrees; my mom had to go back to school to get hers and actually graduated from college the same year I did. Or consider police officers. 30 years ago, rookie police officers were almost never college graduates. A lot of people got their degrees after joining the force, but virtually no one had already gone to college when they signed up. Today, on the other hand, this is quite common. A lot of clerical jobs are the same way. So are sales positions for stuff like insurance; a lot of insurnace salesman have bachelor's degrees these days; heck, mine has an MBA.

This hasn't started happening in the trades yet so far as I can see, but it probably will.

Maybe one answer is a "college degree" that is really a trade school certificate. A friend of mine got one of these. He got a 4-year "engineering" degree in some kind of "technology." He is a surveyor, that is what he was trained to do. But he also has a 4-year college degree from an accredited state university. In addition to his surveying classes, he had to take Psych 101, English Lit, and all of the rest of your undergrad courses.

The reason why I want everyone to go to college is becuase I think that guys ike you and me would get screwed if the rules were changed. I grew up in a lower-middle-class community, but my high school offered a full college prep cirriculum, AP courses, the whole nine yards. If it hadn't, and the emphasis had been on metal shop, etc., I might not have been able to go to college. If college for everyone were de-emphasized, the kids in blue collar communities would get stuck going to blue collar high schools and would be unable to get out, even if they were really smart. And the ones who are smart but need help, like a little special ed? They'd be totally screwed. My buddy is a guy like that. He is a nuclear physicist, used to work at Lawrence Livermore, but he is also dyslexic. He was only able to get out becuase his parents sent him to Catholic school. If he'd had to go to the local blue collar public school, he'd probably be working as a truck driver today.

Personally, I'm trying to learn some of those blue-collar skills, just becuase I think they are good to have. For example, although my dad drove a cab, he knew nothing about cars. So I always change my own oil, etc., buy the factory service manual, etc., just so that I can know a little bit. I don't want to feel totally inadequate about this stuff! :)

Astrid,
I don't have problems with lawyers, as many that I know are fairly generous, honest people. It's the bad eggs- the ones that will take any case and lie to win even if it is way, way obvious that their client is guilty as hell that bothers me. It's more their lifestyle that I don't associate with.Perhaps I'll be more broad and just include all wealthy people to be fair since as mentioned, many lawyers I've met are decent people. The Audis, Mercedes, Lattes', Euro-fetishism, and staying away from places like Wal-mart and payless shoes that bothers me. Of course I wouldn't expect Lawyers to find joy in buying WD40 in bulk at Costco or going to rodeos either, so the feelings are probably mutual. In the end, it all comes back to money. If you make a LOT of money, then you will spend the maxiumum you can without going into debt and therfore surround yourself in an enviroment that insulates you from people in a lower bracket. The same is true with lower income people, so perhaps I'm just stating the obvious.
I grew up from humble means and working in a hardware store selling overpriced crap to wealthy people made me not have what you could call a soft spot for these kinds of people who seem to all act the same. Then again I suppose they thought people like me are "all the same" as well.
Call me immature, but that's just the way I feel. In the bay area I feel a lot of this wealth from RE was undeserved so the harder the fall the better.

Joe,
Yup, it's good to know how to fix things for yourself. For example, last year my truck started stalling out. The dealer said it was a faulty TP sensor. I did the research, replaced it myself for $75 and 3 hours on a Saturday. The dealer would have charged me over $500 for the same service. Those small things add up.

ps,
I'm trying to be somewhat PC, which for me is very difficult, hence the hilarity of my posts and being more restrained these days!

Skibum,
I just seems weird to me that when I get off the plane to see my folks, the car cross section is comprised of Toyotas, Nissans, Fords, Chevy's, and the occasional Bimmer, etc. But here in the Bay, I cross the bridge in the morning in a virtual sea of mini coopers, BMW's, Mercedes, and Porcshes. You see so many of them that they just blend in. What's more is that so many of them are brand spanking new too, as in the nice convertible Mercedes ( not sure of the model No.) that sell for 80-100k. I realize that there are droves of fat cats here, but seriously- where in the hell does all that money come from? If people like to play keeping up with the jonses here, then why place yourself at signifigant risk with a 70k car? that seems a bit extreme.

nomadtoons2,

Guilty as charged, though I find Honda/Acuras to be nicer. Audis are really nice. I will avoid Wal-mart because of their poor labor practices and the shitty way they treat their suppliers. I do find that some high income professionals have very poor financial planning sense. Or else, their idea of value is completely different from mine.

Lawyers and other professionals do love their leased luxury cars, because of the tax breaks involved and because it makes them look "professional."

Skibum,

Okay, I can buy leasing and hiring an accountant as time saving. But I also find a lot of just plain conspicuous consumption. Though I find this to be much more the case in China than in this country.

The other problem with the time is money argument is that these people often miscalculate the actual value of time after taxes transaction costs. More often than not, it does end up as justification for spending more than necessary.

The backlash is coming in the form of things like the “slow food” movement. Time is money is more true than you think.

But food is different, because we live to eat.

Nomadtoons,

Well, you've also got to admit that sometimes expensive stuff is just plain nicer than cheap stuff. For example, I wore shoes from Payless and KMart for years. Now I wear work shoes that are really expensive, they cost around $250 per pair. Why? Becuase they fit better and last longer than the cheap shoes. Expensive shoes actually come in all the sizes, for one thing. Addidas does not offer a 7 1/2 EEE, for instnace, but Allen-Edmonds does. If I wanted to get a shoe that was wide enough, I used to have to buy a 9 and wear something that was almost two sizes too long. Moreover, the nice shoes last longer than the cheap ones. Believe it or not, they last five or six times as long as the $100 shoes, so the $250 shoes are actually much, much cheaper in the long run. And during all that time, they don't give you blisters and look a lot nicer. The idea of buying $250 shoes probably sounds crazy to my HS classmates, but in this case they really should go out and buy them too. They are cheaper in the long run.

And sometimes nice stuff is just plain nice. It may not be a good value, like the shoes, but it's still very nice. Now, you and I know that there is no real difference between a BMW 330i and a Kia Optima. Both will get you to work, and the Kia may actually even be a little more reliable these days. But a BMW is one hell of a lot nicer to drive. It's not just an image thing. The suspension is tuned differently, the steering is about a thousand times more responsive, there is more pickup, and the interior is a hell of a lot nicer. Is it worth an additional $20,000? Maybe not to you. But a BMW is nicer than a Kia, no question about it, no ambiguity. You may not value a BMW, but the people who do really are getting a nicer car for the extra money, they are not senselessly throwing it away.

Finally, nice stuff is just more enjoyable sometimes. I am trying to get into shape and recently bought a mountain bike. It cost $1,200 and was worth every penny. (The housing bubble gives us the perverse freedom to waste money on frivilous things like this.) It weighs about half as much as a Wal-Mart bike and is a whole lot tougher as well. I never have to hesitate before riding down a steep hill, becuase I know the bike will not let me down. About a month ago I did 70 miles in one day. It would have been possible to do this on a Wal-Mart bike, but not nearly as easy. In this case, a more expensive bike really is more enjoyable. Someone who is not a car person might not notice the difference between a BMW and a Kia, but I guarantee that everyone would like my bike better than a Wal-Mart bike, the experience is just plain better on the nice bike, you can go faster and do more.

"That’ why I spend hours reading this blog…"

LOL, I think of it as group therapy. (did I just give the webmaster a reason to start charging us?)

LOL, I think of it as group therapy.

Some may think that this is a support group for jealous, bitter, gold-hoarding renters though. :)

Skibum-

Re: Kia. LOL!

The thing about trade schools that worries me is that I know they would break down along class lines. The children of doctors and lawyers (maybe we need to come up with new professions to serve as synonyms for the wealthy -- mortgage brokers and flippers?) will never get funnled into becoming plumbers, while conversely the children of plumbers will seldom get funnled into becoming doctors and lawyers. There would be a few tokens, but 99% of the kids born in a certain area would never be able to escape. I guarantee this would happen.

There would be a few tokens, but 99% of the kids born in a certain area would never be able to escape. I guarantee this would happen.

It is all in the stars. They will thrive if they are meant to.

SFWoman, Newsfreak-

I know, I know, but I am telling you, the odds are against it. There are always a few exceptions to every rule. BTW, SFWoman, I too know a SF family with a son who became a cop -- we probably are talking about the same people.

The deck is going to be stacked against the poor kids under that sort of system. I went to a public high school that never, ever sent kids to Ivy League schools. There are public high schools that send dozens of kids to Ivy League schools each and every year.

It is hard enough for kids to buck the system these days without being sent to a "vocational" school. If you start tracking kids at an early age like that, you are going to stack the deck against them even more. "Separate" is not "equal," there are no two ways about it. In theory I have no problem with what you are saying but in practice I know it would not work.

@Joe Schmoe as a fellow member of the duck feet society, (12 EEEE) I second your opinion of Allen Edmonds, plus they resole the shoes for $100.00 Only pair of dress shoes I've ever had that fit. MMMM fit.

you have it backwards.. We don’t live to eat, we eat to live. We live to procreate. Darwinism and all (we’re just a bunch of animals, after all…)

True, we eat to live, but just to eat more. :)

What Darwinism? Don't you believe in creationism?

Food should feed the soul as well as the body.

Exactly.

Scott,
I'm not a fan of Gary Danko's - Chez Panisse still does it best in my book. It is true, however, that there's a distinct foodie-cultism in the BA that doesn't exist in most other places.

Joe,
To me I don't think there are many things, both nice or crappy that are built well enough for my tastes. For example, the table fan in my kitchen is from the 30's. It has a base made of cast iron. The motor has replaceable brushes and bearings. The cord is heavy duty, the knob is bakelite, and it still works like new. Cost to me: $5 at a yard sale. My car, a 1955 Mercury has 340k on the speedometer, has a gigantic V8 that makes it accelerate like a bat out of hell, and I can fix anything on it in less than 30 minutes and 50 bucks. It's now 51 years old and I recently restored it, so perhaps it'll go another 50.I can guarantee that this car gets way, way more attention and smiles than any 70k Bimmer. All the furniture I own is from the turn of the century, picked up off the street, flea markets, and so forth. Most of the stuff I see- even the expensive stuff, like a $400 coffee looks like crap to me. It won't be around in 10 years either.
But.. I'll stop and be dead honest. If someone walked over and gave me a few mil, would I buy that Cadillac STS sedan with the nice 400HP turbo charged engine, bose stereo system, magnetically controlled suspension system? Probably.
I'm in emergency saving mode as we speak. I could easily buy a fully loaded toyota truck with all the trimmins', or buy some really nice clothes. I could also probably really stretch for a 6 month world tour. But I don't because I'm a married guy caught in the middle of a dilemena where the future isn't looking that great due to our inability to afford basic ameneties like housing. If things were better, I might indulge in some of those nice things.

Besides I’ve been to expensive restaurants (mostly because my parents like those places, so when they come visit SF they go out alot), and most are disappointing, including Gary Danko’s — I don’t know how you guys can rave on about that one so much.

I have yet to try Gary Danko's. What is wrong with it?

Simple foods are also soul-feeders. A perfect tomato with some crunchy Malden salt sprinkled on top? A bowl of ripe raspberries? A tart, crisp apple and a wedge of sharp cheddar cheese? Perfect guacamole? A boiled lobster, some corn and boiled potatoes and melted butter (leave the white bits in the butter, please!)?

Yum! Boiled lobster. I now crave a 3-pound Maine lobster.

I’m not a fan of Gary Danko’s - Chez Panisse still does it best in my book. It is true, however, that there’s a distinct foodie-cultism in the BA that doesn’t exist in most other places.

My global favorite is currently Kaygetsu in Menlo Park. Their Japanese cuisine is very well executed. Their sashimi is fresh and flavorful.

After 7 courses you will still be refreshed.

A boiled lobster, some corn and boiled potatoes and melted butter (leave the white bits in the butter, please!)?

Butter? Somehow I do not usually like too much butter. If I want a heart-healthy mean I go for olive oil. If not I want lard!

Lard tastes so good. :)

Peter P,
I haven't been there - definitely will give it a look-see. That's the one in Sharon Park, eh? I've heard really good things about it. I can actually go there for lunch from work with a 5min drive, if I can ever find the time.

I haven’t been there - definitely will give it a look-see. That’s the one in Sharon Park, eh? I’ve heard really good things about it. I can actually go there for lunch from work with a 5min drive, if I can ever find the time.

They have very good lunch deals.

I recommend the eel rice bowl. Their unagi is very nice. If you like sushi, they have a set lunch with 10 pieces of nigiri at 25%+ discount over dinner price.

Please don't tell too many people. I do not want to have to make reservations too far in advance.

SFwoman,
I've lived in Boston, NY, TN, CA, and been to Europe, Mexico, Ireland, plus I have driven across the country. Twice. I'm well aware of what exsists around me.Probably more so than many of my California contemporaries. Perhaps that's what gives me a diffrent perspective on life.I've lived in more places than just the coasts. I've lived in the middle, out there, and in big cities, small towns, big suburbs and college campuses.I've experienced people who hate anything new, and people who hate anything old. I've met people with political viewpoints that differ from my own. I have blended into the areas that I've lived in. I've experienced the social variety of the country and feel sorry for those that haven't. That's why I scoff a lot around here at the thought that people are so willing to spend so much money to live here because they haven't seen what other possibilities abound outside the borders of the state.
I don't claim to believe that TN is better than CA,Nor CA better than anywhere else.I might stay, I might move, I might go to any number of other states. On the same token, time, money, economics, and our own upbringing bear into the decisions we make, and CA for the time period is rather hostile to younger folks.If TN were also expensive, then I would make the same conclusion and look elsewhere besides TN.
Perhaps there are things about the Bay Area and CA that I have yet to realize that would make me feel that the ridiculous expense is worth it, but I have yet to come to that conclusion.

Perhaps there are things about the Bay Area and CA that I have yet to realize that would make me feel that the ridiculous expense is worth it, but I have yet to come to that conclusion.

Mostly food and weather. Las Vegas has good food but weather sucks. Seattle should have good food and weather (I do not mind overcast and rain). I may take a look there.

As a country girl, although I know from previous threads you do not like sweets, lard makes the best pie crust.

Lard is truly amazing. You can even use it to cook veggies.

I can actually go there for lunch from work with a 5min drive, if I can ever find the time.

Lunch is rather quick there (less than 40 minutes) at around 11:30. If you order sushi when they are busy (after 12:30) there can be big delays.

Perhaps a volume of Peter P’s food memoirs would sell well.

Perhaps I should do just that. :) Too bad my cooking is horrible.

Peter P,
I don't like unagi, but love all forms of raw seafood - I'm a sucker for really good uni or scallop. RE: Lard, as an MD, I really shouldn't recommend it (I have to reveal, in fact, that I am a cardiologist, no less), but damn, lard tastes good! Take everything in moderation, though, and you should generally be fine.

I don’t like unagi, but love all forms of raw seafood - I’m a sucker for really good uni or scallop.

Sorry, but I guess you will have to relocate to Hokkaido then. :)

Nevertheless, their uni and hotate are pretty good. I love raw seafood too, especially raw shellfishes, except oysters.

Amazed,
Ya, I vent here, and that's probably not very pleasant for the people on the blog. I guess we actually do have ot pretty good. We had some friends come down from Seattle this weekend. The job situation isn't that great up there, and they were living in a not so great condo complex. All weekend they told us how great our rental house was, and in retrospect, it is. We have a yard, garage, lemon and orange trees, and a safe neighborhood. That and we don't pay much to live there. Heck- one of the housemates is leaving, but the cost is still less than if we got out own place, so we suddenly have 2 extra rooms.. to do whatver we want with. After they left I did think... Gee, we're pretty well off compared to a LOT of people we know, and they all rent too. I sometimes think we're better off than some who bought.
Anyhow, sorry for all the venting.I'll try harder to keep it under control.

Peter P,
Why not oysters? You probably don't like Zuni's then? On the other hand, how about BBQ'ed oysters with Everett and Jones sauce on them - mmmm

After this extreme recession/depression begins to unfold in the coming months and we suffer through a time of poverty, we will begin the healing process. How the US emerges from this may be drastically different from how it is today. And in my opinion, change isn’t always a bad thing. In fact, I’m looking forward to it, and just about none of my reasons include money.

I'll second (or third?) that. I've seen a lot of gloom-and-doom in this thread about how awful it would be if the Fed were to "allow" the market to self-correct, resulting in much lower RE prices. And yet this kind of large-scale, "paradigm shift" away from the Debt=Wealth model is exactly what thic country needs, IMO.

Frankly I question whether or not RE price collapse in the bubbliest markets would even be that bad extreme for mosts states (many of which are not experiencing a bubble). And why would a return to sensible lending/home prices be so "awful"?

Awful for WHOM exactly?
--The specuvestor/flippers who incited the bidding wars and priced working class families out of the market here?
--The sub-prime mortgage lenders who provided the no-doc toxic credit to the specuvestors, enabling them to start bidding wars?
--The GSEs and FCBs who assumed most of the default risk for sub-prime mortgage lenders, so they could extend unlimited credit to any flipper with a pulse?
--The daytraders-turned-Realt-whores?

Why should I feel any pity for these groups whatsoever? The only group I do feel sympathy for are the honest decent working class people who --through no fault of their own-- got hoodwinked into this massive shell game out of ignorance of market economics. They just listened to the MSM and self-appointed industry "experts" and sadly are going to get f@cked along with the flippers.

But even the fact that the innocent will suffer along with the guilty is no reason not to let the bubble implode under it's own weight. The consequences of trying to "soften" the crash will only prolong the pain for many, while continuing to allow the massive mis-allocation of capital to continue. The faster and harder the crash, the quicker the return to market sanity and the better for all concerned.

Why not oysters? You probably don’t like Zuni’s then? On the other hand, how about BBQ’ed oysters with Everett and Jones sauce on them - mmmm

Somehow I do not like the taste, smell, and texture of an oyster. BBQ seafood sounds good! I want mine with mayo.

nomad, newsfreak,
I read somewhere (the Chronic-le?) about this website:

http://www.fallenfruit.org/

It maps public parks, etc that have fruit trees that people have found with edible fruit. You can just use the map to find free produce. Someone needs to do this for the BA!

I agree with the "get it over with quickly" sentiment. And while I hope that many of the "honest decent working class people" learn from the experience, I suspect that's too much to hope for. And this is why:

A *huge* proportion of people cannot make *correct and accurate*
generalisations of principles. They have to learn everything as if
it's an unrelated piece of crap, BECAUSE THEY ARE STUPID! PEOPLE ARE
STUPID! -- Thorfinn

Before anyone jumps on me for attacking working class people, let me say that I think the above applies to all classes. I personally take the "specialization is for insects" attitude.

// Just hoping that the damage is mostly contained to the truly deserving.

Peter P Says:

BBQ seafood sounds good! I want mine with mayo.

Have you been to Kirala in Berkeley? They have a robata bar, and they have these baby lobster tails grilled with some kind of mayo topping - so good!