patrick.net

>> If my post inspires permarenter or others to vote Republican purely on this one matter, I sincerely apologize

Why?

Democrats are eqauly culpable ...... I do not see a difference ...

>> I don’t think there is anything wrong about defending the Conservative position.

I agree ... proud to be a conservative.... after watching democrats for nearly 10 years as a non citizen.

What are the reasons for opting out of vaccination? Money? I thought the county pays for it.

Speaking of epidemic, certain coastal parts of China is undergoing the spread of hand foot and mouth disease, accumulating more than 5000 "reported" cases in a matter of days with more than 20 "official" deaths among children and infants. WHO's head is now staffed by a woman from Hong Kong planted there by the Chinese government, so you cannot expect honest reports coming out of WHO. When she ran for the head of WHO, Chinese government bought off many African votes to put her where she is. She was actually in charge of SARS control in Hong Kong and attempted cover-up herself at the initial stage.

This could be a resurgence of the SARS episode almost 5 years ago.

Of the 80 million houses in the U.S., about 55 million have mortgages. Of those, four million are behind on payments. Foreclosure proceedings were begun on about 1.5 million homes last year, up more than 50% from 2006. This year will be worse. The Treasury, according to presentations its officials have made recently, predicts house prices could fall another 10% to 15% before touching bottom.

Moody's Economy.com estimates that one in roughly 12 American families with mortgages -- four million in all -- already owe more than the current value of their homes. They are said to be "underwater." The firm predicts that by early 2009 nearly one in four, or 12 million, homeowners will be underwater. Most will continue to pay mortgages on time. Many won't, and are at risk of losing their homes.

Lenders, we're told repeatedly, prefer to avoid foreclosure if possible. Better to cut a deal than end up with an empty, decaying house. "If a foreclosure is preventable...the economic case for trying to avoid foreclosure is strong," Mr. Bernanke said this week. And not just for borrower and lender: "Clusters of foreclosures can destabilize communities, reduce the property values of nearby homes and lower municipal tax revenues," he said. And that could depress housing prices, which could hurt the economy and the stability of the financial system, he added. On that much, Mr. Frank and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson agree.

In ordinary times, a lender shouldn't need prodding from the government to do what's in its self-interest. But these aren't ordinary times. The drop in home prices is pervasive, mortgage markets messy and complexities caused by turning mortgages into securities many. No one in Washington wants to help the "speculators" who bought homes they don't live in or those who lent to them. And there's broad agreement that those who bought more house than they'll ever be able to afford are going to lose out. The debate revolves around the "preventable foreclosures."

Republicans or Democrats, both will support a massive bail out, it is the nature of being politicians, not GOP or Dem politicians, just politicians.

I wouldn't base my vote on who is going to support a bail out, I am not so naive to believe that one party is less inclined to bail out than the other. GOP has been handing out $$$ like a drunken sailor in the last 8 years, just as much as the Dems if not more.

One should only base his vote on whom he wants to be in the hot seat when the worst happens in the next 4 years. Which party he favors AFTER this 4 years? If you favor GOP for 2012 and beyond, vote Dem. If you favor Dem for 2012 and beyond, vote GOP.

What are the reasons for opting out of vaccination?

I would bet it's a type of "enlightened" decision making. The kind which is very common in the Bay Area. Definitely not money related (at least not the lack of it)

OO,

This is a Waldorf School, look it up here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education). There is some serious controversy about vaccination policy in Waldorf schools. I guess it's not a school policy but rather parents' choice in East Bay school. From Wikipedia :

"Rudolf Steiner (the founder of Waldorf education) suggested that children's spirits benefited from being tempered in the fires of a good inflammation.[85] A report about a growing trend against childhood immunizations describes parents of a Waldorf school in Colorado who believed vaccinations had harmful effects.[85] Concerns have been raised that unvaccinated students, some of whom attended Waldorf schools, may have been compromising public health by spreading disease, even among vaccinated populations.[86][87][88]

In response, The European Council of Waldorf Schools, representing 630 of the 900 Waldorf schools world wide, [89] has stated unequivocally that opposition to immunisation per se – or resistance to national strategies for childhood immunisation in general – forms no part of the goals of Waldorf education. It also stated that a matter such as whether or not to inoculate a child against communicable disease should be a matter for parental choice, and that insofar as schools have any role to play in these matters, it is in making available a range of balanced information both from the appropriate national agencies and from qualified health professionals with expertise in the field. [90]"

Peter P Says:
Most people who claim to be “saving the planet” are really trying to save themselves from lifestyle changes.

There _always_ is a segment of self-important windbags (often in the vicinity of university cafe's) who arrogate to themselves the lofty responsibility of 'saving' us from some catastrophe at a global level, or righting some injustice done to third-parties by fourth-parties twice removed.

It is never about picking up their ragged knapsacks, getting off their shiftless behinds, and taking _observable_ action that yields _measurable_ results.

Unfortunately the actual cause to which these remoras attach themselves is itself quite worthy - but their incessant prattling and pointless oral flatulence, not to mention the twee symbolism ("see this cool patch I sewed on my bamboo-fiber backpack") greatly increases the white-noise surrounding the faint distress-signal from the real problem.

At which point, we have no choice but to ignore the whole thing and move on. And then they graduate and buy a MINI or Priapus or (someone-please-shoot-me-now) the "SMART".

Bap33 Says:
I would love to slam the commie/lefty/diviant/libs amung us

Bap, remember to slam the argument - not the person. We are civilized around here, even if we aren't English. :-)

100% vaccination is not required for epidemic suppression.

Who cares more about the civil liberty of unborn children.

I do. I want my fetuses to read in the library without worrying that the government will confiscate their little books, and I want my hangnails to enjoy the right to bear arms.

OO Says:

> What are the reasons for opting out of vaccination?
> Money? I thought the county pays for it.

After years of pot smoking and doing other drugs most “Hippy Dippy” parents think that vaccinations (and fluorinated water) are a plot by ‘The Man” to take over the minds of their children. I bet less than half the kids in West Marin have been vaccinated against anything…

Peter P Says:

> Most people who claim to be “saving the planet” are
> really trying to save themselves from lifestyle changes.

I usually agree with Peter P, but this time I disagree.

Most people who claim to be “saving the planet” actually want a (very small) lifestyle change (so they can feel smug). Most people who claim to be “saving the planet” do make a life style changes like trading in the 3 Series that gets 28 mpg for a Prius that gets 38 mpg, paying an extra couple $ a pound for “fair trade” coffee and buying a reusable shopping bag from Trader Joe’s.

After making the above “lifestyle changes” the “saving the planet” crowd will never shut about there “sacrifices for the planet” (and hope you forget about the Suburban that they keep at the place in Sun Valley, the illegal alien gardener that they pay $6/hour and that they buy absorbent “pee pads” by the pallet for their little annoying exotic dog that is not house broken)….

I'm conservative and have never felt like the conservative POV was not tolerated here. I question this administration because it acts more liberal than I believe Obama will be. Therefore, since they have betrayed my trust I won't be voting for McCain.

"there are no such studies unless you are very “liberal” with your definition of peer reviewed. But let’s say there are. What, in your estimation would be the “appropriate” number to kill? Since you object to the number, you must have one in mind yourself.

By the way, try calling a GI a mass murderer to his face. If I’m there, I’ll hold you down for him you piece of shit."

Ther are two or three studies conducted of Iraqi deaths since the US/UK invasion and occupation. The first was reviewed by Johns Hopkins University and the last one or two were done by a British pollster who was surprised by the results.
Like many of the disconnected-from-reality participants in this forum, I find your comments offensive.

Most people who claim to be “saving the planet” actually want a (very small) lifestyle change (so they can feel smug).

Yes, but they want a small lifestyle change now only because they somehow believe sea level will rise and eat up their beach houses. ;)

Malcolm, I agree that Bush is too liberal...

Are you sure Obama will be better?

Anyway, ABC seems to be winning the election, which is a good thing. :)

Can anyone believe that I consider myself an environmentalist? However, I believe humanity is the root cause of the problem. Unless we regulate population growth under an economically efficient system, we have no future.

Vaccination programs are an enormous cash cow for certain big pharma interests, and there is little available data on the long term effects of receiving an ever increasing number of them.

There is undeniable evidence that vaccinations trigger autism in certain children. The mechanisms are not understood.

Based on the clear uncertainty of the health ramifications of being vaccinated, combined with the clear misinformation being propagated by the related financial interests, I for one don't trust them at all.

There is absolutely no evidence that water fluoridation reduces incidence of tooth decay or issues compared to non fluoridated study groups. Indeed, comparing populations in Europe vs US has revealed the opposite.

Fluorides are known to reduce aggressive tendencies and act as a mild sedative in humans. Useful to fluorinate water supplies in populations where real estate value declines might lead to mass hysteria and insurrection. ;-)

Here is an entertaining, if painful, account of a fella from Santa Cruz happily preparing to jingle mail and walk from his 8 houses. And with a big smile on his face. :-)

This is a very real shadow inventory problem coming, as analysts continue to make the same optimistic mistakes in models. It is unlikely the modelers behind this guys foreclosures could see this coming. AAA paper to smoking hole overnight with no warning.

http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN0952458820080511?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

One for Surfer X etal. They are calling the boomer kids "baby losers" across the pond.

"Across Spain, France and Italy, young middle-class professionals with good degrees and diplomas are facing a lifetime on low salaries with unrewarding jobs, forever poorer than their parents."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/spain.france

Great story, northernvirginiarenter. It is solid proof that welfare state does nothing to improve wealth disparity.

Hopefully, those young people will migrate here and start their enterprises. Then, they will help us compete. Europe is about to learn a painful lesson. Only Free Market can liberate them this time around.

It seems young professionals in UK are doing better simply because their country embraces capitalism.

This is a warning for us. If we turn left, we will suffer.

Socialized health care will also hurt us. However, if we must have free health care for special interest groups (like old people), we may just as well have universal health care.

There is undeniable evidence that vaccinations trigger autism in certain children. The mechanisms are not understood.

That is patently false. This is exactly the misguided thinking that leads to events like the whooping cough outbreak in question. There is no peer-reviewed conclusive evidence that suggests anything of the sort.

Fluoridinated water is in the same boat.

Fluoridinated water is in the same boat.

Also, "mercury" in fish.

This is a great site for debunking the mercury myth.

http://www.mercuryfacts.org/

Skibum, you are not completely informed.

Ref Blaylock below:

In 1976, children received 10 vaccines before attending school. Today they will receive over 36 injections. The American Academy of Pediatrics and the Center for Disease Control assured parents that it was safe to not only give these vaccines, but that they could be given at one time with complete safety.

One often repeated study found that almost 80 percent of medical practice had no scientific backing.

That is patently false.

Skibum, you are incorrect. I personally know several physicians who also believe the non sense put out by the AMA and pharma interests, so you are not alone. Fact is, there is definitive evidence that suggests this very thing.

Here is the head of the CDC admitting that vaccinations trigger autism, again in certain subsets of children.

http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_blog/Head-of-CDC-Admits-on-CNN-that-Vaccines-can-Trigger-Autism-59487.aspx

The US Fed Court system is now admitting a link, not that they necessarily represent scientific authority but given enormous legal liabilities and potential for disruption....well, it makes a point.

"After years of insisting there is no evidence to link vaccines with the onset of autism spectrum disorder (ASD), the US government has quietly conceded a vaccine-autism case in the Court of Federal Claims.

The child’s claim against the government — that mercury-containing vaccines were the cause of her autism — was supposed to be one of three “test cases” for the thimerosal-autism theory currently under consideration by a three-member panel of Special Masters, the presiding justices in Federal Claims Court."

Google the topic on the science side, read critically, and one will come to the inescapable conclusion that there exists a link. I had a conversation last summer with an NIH researcher on the subject, who admitted that it was clear environmental factors were involved in the autism epidemic. She did not conclude vaccinations were directly related, but did admit there seemed to be a causal link in certain cases. (I recently dated someone with an autistic son, which sent me down deep into this wormhole)

Europe is about to learn a painful lesson. Only Free Market can liberate them this time around.

At least they have a free market in Europe, unlike the United States, where the market is totally fixed.

As a mom who has vaccinated her kids, I think the problem with vaccinations may be in the way they bundle them now. I don't know who thought it was a good idea to pump kids full of 4-5 or more vaccinations at one time, but it's not unreasonable to think that might overwhelm the immune system of a small child.

I think we need to look at how immunizations are administered. I wouldn't be surprised if the rise in autism came at the same time doctors started giving children multiple immunizations at one time. Just my 2 cents.

Thank God my kids are healthy.

Fluoride is more toxic to humans than lead. Science fact. This is disconcerting:

http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/accidents/f-lead.html

And this below is also appears to be factual, though who knows what to make of it. (Entertainment value, I'm not saying this is going on today btw)

"While there he was told by German chemists of a scheme which had been worked out by them during the war and adopted by the German General Staff.

"Repeated doses of infinitesimal amounts of fluoride will in time reduce an individual's power to resist domination by slowly poisoning and narcotizing a certain area of the brain and will thus make him submissive to the will of those who wish to govern him. "Both the Germans and the Russians added sodium fluoride to the drinking water of prisoners of war to make them stupid and docile."

Here is the head of the CDC admitting that vaccinations trigger autism, again in certain subsets of children.

Sorry, but that link reeks of desperate and biased proselytizing.

I don't see any real, statistically sound, peer-reviewed data pointed to by that link. It's an anecdote, sad for sure, but an anecdote. Public health and medical policy decisions should not be made on anecdotes.

Skibum

I think you're right in that decisions can't be made anecdotally. But there has been such a huge increase in autism we should be looking at everything-- including immunizations.

For the longest time I was an ardent defender of immunizations-- and I still think it's irresponsible not to get them. But if I had another child I would space them out more and insist that my kids not get so many at once. The Federal settlement in the case of the child in Georgia who developed autism-like symptoms after receiving 5 shots for 9 vaccines makes me think there is more to this than meets the eye.

I've had conversations with my doctor about this and they admit that most of their training is geared toward administering prescriptions and following the old-school way of doing things. Which essentially means not questioning the medical establishment.

I'm not saying immunizations are causing autism. But until we know what is causing such a dramatic rise in the number of children being diagnosed with the condition, we have to keep looking for answers.

I think you’re right in that decisions can’t be made anecdotally. But there has been such a huge increase in autism we should be looking at everything– including immunizations.

Links between immunizations and autism are in fact being actively investigated. I'm not a mouthpiece for the CDC or the pharma industry that supplies vaccines, but this is a situation where the risks are far, far outweighed by the benefits, both for the individual child and for the community at large. It is irresponsible for parents to withhold vaccinations from their children.

Try this link, from the CDC as opposed to some rabid one-cause group:

http://www.cdc.gov/news/2008/03/VaccineQuestions.html

Folks, thermisol has been phased out from vaccines, though this might not show up in your google search as consipiracy theory sites seem to dominate. Please immunize your children. If I were to place a bet, I woiuld go with body burden and a metabolic defect that that prevents the body from excreting mercury. There have been some promising studies showing lower levels of mercury in hair (excreted) of autistic children and higher levels in teeth (retained). In that case, environmental mecury may be more of the issue (given autism rates in countries that had already banned mecury in vaccines a while back are not much different). Clearly, more studies need to be done.

Also, another reason not to vaccinate is an adverse reaction to the vaccine itself... I consider this extremely selfish as you're then relying on "herd protection". Something a prisoners dilema, though. (Yikes!)

And now for something closer to home:
The Geek Syndrome

"In another age, these men would have been monks, developing new ink for printing presses. Suddenly, they're reproducing at a much higher rate."

More:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html

SQT Says:

> I think you’re right in that decisions can’t be made
> anecdotally. But there has been such a huge increase
> in autism we should be looking at everything– including
> immunizations.

We have known for generations that having babies over 30 increases the odds of autism (and breast cancer) and having babies over 40 really increases the odds of autism (and breast cancer) so it is no surprise that now with more moms having kids over 30 (and 40) that we have more autism (and breast cancer)...

EBGuy,
Thanks for that article link. Humorous, but it definitely rings true...

FAB

Excellent point. Mothers are much older now so that of course could be a factor.

Don't get me wrong-- I believe in immunizations. My kids have had all of theirs and I wouldn't dream of not doing it. I think not immunizing your kids is foolish. I just worry that we don't want to look at how the medical industry is giving immunizations in a knee-jerk fashion. But then, I suppose people are protesting immunizations in knee-jerk fashion too...

EBGuy

What I find especially interesting about that article is that it makes the point that autism (and the related syndromes) may have always been around in the same numbers as now-- just without the diagnoses.

Society has become so prone to medicating kids nowadays that virtually every kid can get a diagnoses of some sort if you go to the doctor. I'd be willing to bet that if I went to the doctor tomorrow and complained that my son was hyperactive they would put him on Ritalin in no time flat. It's scary.

I am a strong believer in holistic medicine. Besides, I believe people will be a lot healthier (physically) if they can fix their minds.

That said, I think immunization has a good reward/risk ratio. Even my cats are vaccinated.

Not medical advice

Monkframe says

I find your comments offensive.

Oh that's just so precious! You show up and call us all racists, those of us who are American fat-assed ignoramuses and the US armed forces mass murderers.

You then profess to take offense that I called you a piece of shit in response to all your garbage propaganda. I can only hope your delicate sensibilities were offended enough by my uncivilized namecalling, to give you a stroke.

BAI, it is just said that America-bashing is so trendy nowadays. :(

Peter P
when has it NOT been trendy? ;-)