patrick.net

Israel does not have a desire for war, but (some of ) the israelis have an unfortunate desire for land and settlements, which is distinctly not helping on the situation.

It is like Bay Area Fortress real estate, but with lots of guns and religion added into the mix.

Hail to the Chief.

I just went off the gold standard (perhaps too early?). Still have some SLV if the banks get nationalized and Ben starts printing...

And speaking of deflation:
But there's a new twist on the layoff leviathan that hasn't been seen in a major way in America since the 1930s: In addition to laying off workers, some corporations are asking remaining employees to take a pay cuts, and fairly large ones in some cases.

some corporations are asking remaining employees to take a pay cuts, and fairly large ones in some cases.

Less pay to go round after the credit part of "money and credit" dried up. But as a mitigating note, falling prices will take some sting out of the lower nominal pay . We know about housing costs in free fall, now watch other big ticket items follow suit, even cars. From the MISH article on the Patrick reading list:

Cars are going to get cheaper, much cheaper. Auto prices will crash. Liquidation sales later this year after the 2010 models come out are going to be fabulous.

This to me is going to be the theme of 2009, and perhaps the biggest tragedy. There are going to be alot of middle class families completely wiped out by the end of this.

Stories like this *kill* me.

Only in America could someone with a million-dollar home be considered a hard luck story.

Screw them. I hope they lose everything in bankruptcy court.

Yeah screw them! Asshole selling police supplies! They fucking deserve to starve!

Are you fucking retarded?

It really becomes obvious how the ruling class stays in power when idiots like you open your mouth.

@ kewp,

I'm with you - here is the real hard luck story!

" Oxfam provides food rations as Zimbabwe's hunger crisis is nearing a peak, millions of people see their food from last year's harvest run out months before the next crop will come in Photo: AFP"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/4269695/Zimbabwe-introduces-100-trillion-banknote.html

Who gives a shit who they thought they were. I'm not sobbing into my pillow because of Mr. and Mrs. McDouchebag.

What I am concerned about is that the entire middle class of this country is going to get wiped out. There there will be the pigmen, and everyone else, with nothing in between to slow them down.

And if you think Mr and Mrs McDouchebag ARE the pigmen, then open your fucking eyes.

They cannot afford their $6,400 monthly payment...
Fuzzy, I have to admit, I am with kewp and TOB on this one. I mean, that's just their mortgage payment and doesn't include taxes and maintenance ( and HOA fees to pay for the guard at their gated community). I mean, he was a salesmen for cryin' out loud.

For some reason you guys think I feel sorry for them. I don't.

Anyhow, when it's 2011, the unemployment rate is 17%, and the middle class has evaporated, then you will understand my point.

I have seen plenty of Mr. Million-in-debt, they all share the same blind optimism thinking the good days will always be here to stay.

Another blunder I see too often is buying before selling. Why would anyone be so optimistic that he thinks there will always be a fool in the market ready to take over his home at whatever he is asking for to cover the next mortgage? The simple rule that I was taught by my parents was, always sell first and then buy, even if it means you will have to rent for two months to make the schedule, because that way you will never be caught in a downturn, and you won't be stuck with two mortgages.

Fuzzy, the thing is, middle class has LONG evaporated, this crisis just makes it blatantly clear. There are already very few true middle class left (the former middle class are now known as the upper middle class or marginally rich). How many families can afford to have one working parent to carry the mortgage? How many families have enough savings to last 2 years of expenses? How many people approaching retirement age have enough nest eggs saved up? The evaporation of middle class was masked over in the last few years through their "asset appreciation" in terms of housing and stock price, once that is gone, the credit hole they are in, the ongoing negative cash flow they are enduring will just get acutely, painfully in their face. Today's American "middle class" are one or few paychecks away from defaulting on their financial obligations, and that was typical of working stiff less than a century ago.

This country is made up of a very small number of elite class, few middle upper class, mostly still-in-dream, self-proclaimed, self-disillusioned "middle class", and a substantial number of already hopeless already given-up underclass.

Obama's inauguration speech is just so Obama, you feel like you are taking an American literature class, but there are really no concrete action plans. None whatsoever. I am not really complaining, at least we've got a President who can speak eloquently as opposed to a mentally challenged shrub.

I also find it ominous that he is drawing so much from Lincoln's speech, not a good sign, for himself and his family to say the least. I understand why he thinks drawing a parallel to Lincoln will make sense, but if I were him, I would rather borrow a few encouraging words from Reagan's speech, at least Reagan lived till late 80s.

Yeah screw them! Asshole selling police supplies! They fucking deserve to starve!

It really becomes obvious how the ruling class stays in power when idiots like you open your mouth.

Classy!

Do you really think anyone in that article is going to starve? Or simply be forced to *gasp*; downsize their lifestyle?

Speaking of middle class, know what the median US household income is? About 50k (for now at least). Nobody in that article is 'middle class'. They are all rich people that bankrupted themselves pretending to be even richer people.

Fuck. Them. All.

Every single one of those people bought more house than they could afford. The end game of this deflationary debt-collapse is that real middle class folk (like myself) will be able to purchase affordable real-estate.

My life gets better. Theirs gets worse. Sucks to be them.

How many families can afford to have one working parent to carry the mortgage? How many families have enough savings to last 2 years of expenses? How many people approaching retirement age have enough nest eggs saved up?

This not necessarily a "middle class" concept. Plenty of modestly living blue collars have a paid-for home by age 45, with plenty of time to set up a modest retirement. Remember, even post bubble, one-third of US homes have no mortgage. It used to be one-half.

"Middle Class" used to be a Buick and a 1500 ft home. Every husbands favorite meal was meatloaf. Appetite for consumption did not exceed income. We will see this again when the attitudes change to value a paid for (albeit modest) house and car over luxury items with perpetual payments.

The end game of this deflationary debt-collapse is that real middle class folk (like myself) will be able to purchase affordable real-estate.

Amen!!

Blue collars will also benefit from lower housing costs. It may be a Clayton Home on a rural or small town lot, but it will be his. Or maybe a older home he bought cheap and fixed up over the years.

Reagan was 93 when he died.

FuzzyMath Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Anyhow, when it’s 2011, the unemployment rate is 17%, and the middle class has evaporated, then you will understand my point.

You had a point? lol.

seems like weve got a lot of false victimhood in the news lately…

Exactly.

These assholes will *still* lead a higher quality of life than me after bankruptcy and foreclosure.

You can't afford your 6k/month mortgage anymore? Boo-fucking-hoo. I *can* afford my 1k. Cry me a river.

not only will houses be more affordable, but jobs will return. We will no longer be fighting the current with regards to the outsourcing problem, because it will be just as cheap to have jobs here as in eg. India. Housing prices must fall.

And, I just heard that immigration is offering a green card to anyone that buys a million dollars or more in domestic real estate. Not only will domestic labor become affordable again; but all the worlds rich people will move here to take advantage of it!

I'm certainly not going to argue against the benefits of cheaper housing. But it's not really falling unless it falls relative to wages.

I know alot of people getting pay cuts... forced vacations, 4 day work weeks, etc.

Perhaps by the end of it if wages rise quicker than inflation we'd be better off. But right now it looks like mostly a wash.

Investment in real estate in US guarantees green card

http://www.propertywisebulgaria.com/article/investment-in-real-estate-in-us-guarantees-green-card/id_3158/catid_29

Note: I have not verified this.

If its true; I think its a fantastic idea. While the rest of the world implodes; offer sanctuary for the wealthy living abroad to emigrate to the US. There will be plenty of unemployed Americans available to mow their lawns and watch their kids; so no need for illegal labor!

Anyhow, when it’s 2011, the unemployment rate is 17%, and the middle class has evaporated, then you will understand my point.

Let's make something nice and crystal clear (since you think I'm retarded).

There is no formal definition of middle class. For arguments sake; lets define it as anywhere from half to twice the median household income.

Based on the 2007 numbers of 50k per household; that gives us a range of 25k-100k (again, household numbers). At the 3X income-to-mortgage multiplier, that puts the *peak* mortgage for a middle-class family @ 300k.

You see anyone with a 300k or less mortgage in that sob-story article?

No.

They are not middle class. They are not upper-middle class. They are/were upper class people living beyond their means that are going to be forced into a middle-class lifestyle entirely due to their own poor choices. They deserve no quarter. Especially from a middle-class wage slave like myself.

The *true* middle class, on the other hand, is going to enjoy a higher quality of life as their dollars regain purchasing power.

TOB, that sounds right for a definition. lol

Bargain hunting dominates Bay Area home sales in December

http://www.dqnews.com/News/California/Bay-Area/RRBay090121.aspx

too wealthy to collect welfare, too poor to pay off politicians.

Perfect!

Investment in real estate in US guarantees green card

Won't work.

Wealthy people will not want to be considered a US Person for Tax Purpose. It is the worst deal in the world.

They can just retire to London or Monte Carlo with a much better tax plan.

I flinch every time someone compares BHO to FDR.

I am actually trying to like Obama and I do not want to link him to that.

The panic of 1837 lasted only a few years, thanks to MVB's Free Market policies. Because of the New Deal, the Great Depression lasted until the next world war.

Krugman says that the depression lasted well into the war because FDR was foolish enough to try and balance the budget in 1937.

In other words, the New Deal was not enough. Balancing the budget in 1937 killed the revovery. WW1 was the biggest public works project in modern history and was what pulled the US out of the depression.

Krugman is saying exactly the opposite of what Peter P is saying.

Defibw Great Depression. WW1 occured before the Great Depression that I think of. Are you thinking about the Panic of 1907?

*define darn my hands moved to the left just like America.

s/WW1/WW2/g

Well, we got out of the Panic of 1837 in a few short years without a new deal.

I don't know why History appears to idolize FDR. Who is Krugman anyway?

My bad, according to this book WW2 did not end the Great Depression...

... true prosperity only returned when Washington turned away from New Dealism following the election of the Eightieth Congress in 1946

http://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Great-Depression-American-Ways/dp/1566634717

I am glad that BHO idolizes Abraham Lincoln, a Republican. :)

Another book of truth:

http://www.amazon.com/FDRs-Folly-Roosevelt-Prolonged-Depression/dp/140005477X/ref=pd_sim_b_2

FDR hampered the recovery.

The book is so popular that it is out of stock. People must be scared.

I have faith in BHO. I think he will not kill the economy like FDR did. He can actually walk!

(But I know he is not a Jacksonian Democrat. :( )

BTW, if there was no New Deal there would not be the Great Depression because it would just be a regular depression.

Wealthy people will not want to be considered a US Person for Tax Purpose. It is the worst deal in the world.

They can just retire to London or Monte Carlo with a much better tax plan.

You are thinking of billionaires.

Think millionaires with families. In unstable countries.

At this point I wish the government would nationalize the banks. At least I have some say when I go to vote on who runs it. Now they just steal money from us and give it away to the f*cked banksters.

If we can just wipe out the monopoly money, certainty will again return to the market and allow a recovery. I have lots of cash on the sidelines that I don't dare put at risk because the game is so rigged against the people with no power. Would you want to risk your money when the rules are different for the "elite" people?

Think millionaires with families. In unstable countries.

They can already come in by starting businesses and creating employment. Isn't that more productive?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa

Neutron,

Totally agree. Unlike Bush/Paulson, I think we can count on Obama/XYZ to insist on getting the proper valuation when buying common stock on behalf of the taxpayer.

The value gotten will be the real test of Obama.