patrick.net

OTS rides again, spouting more drivel:

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies."

This is a completely false dichotomy. There are other options than the two listed here, and this is the type of argument which Robber Barons like to present. And has Lewis somehow *proven* that his "busybodies" are worse than baron tyrrants. Of course he has not, he just wants you to think so. Bullcrap all around.

AppleAnnie says

Once this bill is DEAD AND BURIED, then victory can be claimed. If BHussein can be defeated on this, the right will be invigorated and a real possibility will exist of retaking congress in 2010. BHussein will have trouble passing any more socialist legislation with a conservative congress.

You are an utter parody. Maybe in your bizarro parallel universe the corporatist powers that be will manage to eliminate "socialist single payer care" (aka Medicare) and Social Security and you will get to suffer in squalor in your golden years. Yay. Have fun with that.

>>Nobody is proposing that we put robber barons in charge.

Then what is the point of what you wrote? That we should follow the Republicans, because they are the closest to Robber Barons?

I'll answer that: All you are doing is to try and sow doubt among the simple-minded that cannot see through your propaganda.

Omnipotent moral busybodies - kind of sounds like Jesus. If Lewis was hot for the Guilded Age, he would just LOVE living today.

Appleannie, I don't understand why you are fighting so hard to be fucked over by insurance companies and the wealthy. Stockholm syndrome? You've always been a loser and can't picture anything different? Go fuck yourself.

This has been the most interesting blog debate I've yet seen on the web about this, despite all the flame-throwing. Seems to boil down to people who can afford health insurance and haven't had to use it for anything serious or complicated yet (nor seem to know anyone who has), and everyone else. Forget pro- or anti- Obama. Or socialist or whatever. Sounds more like something between people with a compassion-ectomy and those with either the experience or imagination to care about themselves and the people around them.

This healthcare bill, even with a single payer option in place is such a mealy mash of special interest clauses it would do little to change very much about the US healthcare system besides (possibly) make it available to more people. It will be just as expensive whether people exercise their 'choice' for private insurance or to take the government plan. I'm not surprised there aren't loads of 'lefties' shouting the 'tea baggers' down - what's there to defend on principle?

What the rest of the industrialised world realises is that health is largely a matter of luck - your genetic inheritance, what your family fed you, how you were treated as you grew up, how much/what kind of education you had, what job you end up doing, how you live now. Only the last three are matters where any individual choices can be made, limited as they often are.

Sorry guys, but it is up to us to collectively look after our brothers and sisters - and as our primary collective institution the government is therefore involved. Are the 'I'm alright Jacks' happy for the government not to regulate (and subsidise) medical research? Do they think Medicaid should be abolished and old people without money left to die on their own? That the people who show up in the emergency rooms of our public hospitals should be left to die of that blood clot or heart attack which had they been able to get to a doctor without worrying about money earlier, might have not have cost the hospital the huge expense of a bed in the IU?

I've lived in the UK for 30 years and the National Health Service is a big reason why I stayed. For all its problems (and of course every system has them), the principle of healthcare 'free at the point of delivery' is justly held up by nearly everyone here as one of the UK's major post-war achievements. It frees employers from having to set up a plan for employees, it frees doctors to make clinical decisions based on what the patient needs and from the huge amount of paperwork administering and chasing up insurance payments, it frees patients to get help in dealing with any health issues when they first arise, when there might actually be some 'choices'. This doesn't feel like tyranny, it feels like common sense.

There are also several private health insurance companies here, some with their own clinics and hospitals. Sometimes this is available as part of an executive package, sometimes chosen by those who can afford it, but even these patients rely on the NHS for help with difficult or chronic problems. Generally what they get for their money is a bit less of a wait for specified GP appointments (most surgeries will see you on the same day without an appointment, and do emergency call-outs) and for surgery.

And you know what? We're taxed at 20%, not 40%, for all this. I don't have to worry if my son breaks his wrist, we get regular check-ups, and I've had a great range of treatments for both major and minor problems, as have friends. I also have friends who are doctors, nurses, lab technicians, and medical researchers, who are all proud to work for the NHS. This general trust in, and support of, the NHS by users and providers means that malpractice cases are rarely brought (and often against the whole local health authority as opposed to an individual doctor) and doctors are generally free from having to insure for it.

This is not a fantasy. http://www.monetos.co.uk/insurance/health-insurance/nhs/advantages/

Friends and family in the US have endless tales of woe about negotiations with their insurance companies to get the care they need approved; another, a GP, had her practice bankrupted by insurance companies not paying up on claims.

Why not just go the whole hog - have a nationalised system and eliminate the middleman? I fail to understand the great difference in individual 'freedom' between healthcare being provided by a bunch of large insurance corporations and it being provided by the government. The government has at least a theoretical responsibility towards us, it is up to us to make this practical. Insurance corporations are responsible to their shareholders only - and from friend's reports, increasingly having not patients but the profit margins uppermost in their minds.

Ironically I've been involved in campaigns here- with several other ex-pat Americans - to stop the creeping privatisation of services currently sponsored by the UK government. We understand the tyranny of private health care from our relatives and friends back in the States. Private three or four tier healthcare delivery has been shown to cost double to three times as much as direct delivery by the state. (If you want facts and figures, the magazine Private Eye published a well-documented book on this, sorry no URL, seems to be sold out) We are often battling unelected government quangos chosen to make decisions about the service, but ultimately we can go to our elected officials to challenge those decisions. They do have some sensitivity when elections are looming.

Where can you go in the US? The head of the corporation which runs the insurance company? The shareholders? Why should they give a mouse-fart about you? So you can sue in the courts, maybe.

What kind of freedom is that? I'd vote for freedom from worry every time.

Londoneyrie says

We are often battling unelected government quangos chosen to make decisions about the service, but ultimately we can go to our elected officials to challenge those decisions.

My Grandmother, who lived in Salford, Lancs, had a case of macular degeneration. She was told by the NHS doctor that it will take nine months waiting to see someone who could then make an appointment to see about treatment. However, if she were to pay privately, she would see that same doctor within two weeks.

My Grandma did not like that concept, so she wrote a letter to then PM John Major. His office got involved straight away and the NHS was ordered to see my Grandmother immediately. This rapid response suprised me (I thought the PM would be a bit busy for it), and surprised my extremely Labour partisan English uncles (who believe all Conservatives to be pure evil).

When I was born in England, I was born at home. Home birth, and not hospital birth, was typical in England back then. Is that still the custom? I say this because virtually all Americans are born in hospitals, with virtually all males being circumcised. Being born in hospitals and not at home may be a part of the "extra spending" by American health care.

The best treatment for all the right wing nut cases is to snatch all natural resources from them because they belong to everybody and then ask them to start over fresh.
We should do it every ten years. take all the natural assets ( land, mines...etc) and also capital ( because it gives access to assets).let them keep all that they have produced ( walmart plastic stuff and all the other crap in the supermarket). If you look at it the right way, most of the things that the right wing nuts cases truly enjoy are the ones which are every body's right. If the down trodden really wakes up, the right wing idiots will know what individual freedom means. Individual freedom also means that when you are born, you have access to all the natural resources as everybody else ( land, air, water and CAPITAL). I know, lot of people can't digest it because they have limited imagination and IQ. we can make that happen by banning inheritance. Why should a kid born to a rich family get access to better education, money and easy living than everybody else ? Everybody is created equal..right.
the kid has not earned anything, then why the discrimation just because of the family of birth ? this is the kind of debate people will have if you press them too hard against the wall. keep the poor happy and you can enjoy the loot.
The right wing nut cases have been enjoying thier loot in the name of a perverted definition of individual liberty for too long..
If you can produce something from ingredients which does not belong to anybody , you can have it all for yourself and shove in your ass and nobody will touch it.

You cannot even fart without other people giving you the right to use thier share of air to breathe.

You make do with what God gave you. Self-reliance and personal responsibility — that’s the American way.

need to add equal oppurtunity to it as well.

banning inheritance will make sure we can accomplish that.

"...but I want to point out that war (or defensive actions by our military) protects all Americans and the entire free world - rich/poor/taxpayer/welfare taker/prisoner/free guy/black/green/yellow/white - all protected from the same threat evenly. And Conservo’s like me do not mind spending money on having the biggest stick and the meanest monster to swing it."
What utter shit that is. You mean maintenance of the empire--call it what it is and don't give us this "white man's burden" crap.
You'll be happy to note that our new president is too young to understand the lessons of Vietnam and is expanding the empire's wars--much to our future detriment.
And the "public option" is off the table, according to today's news, so you don't have to worry about our slide towards third-world status--right on track

banning inheritance will make sure we can accomplish that.

We need to make sure all children of God have equal oppurtunity and nobody has unfair advantage.

I love how socialist activists talk up the idea that the USA is like to the slow learner and most shameful country in the civilized world for not offering complete medical care for everyone inside our borders.

I'm with you guys on the rotten mess that is the health insurance industry. We need to end the government subsidies of insurance companies in the form of tax breaks, and the government/insurance company conglomeration that is Medicare Part D. Government subsidies and regulations gave insurance their monopolies. (perhaps this is a good time to remind everyone that as greedy and heartless as the insurance industry is, no one forced you to accept insurance from them. The American people willingly allowed the insurance industry to take over medicine. We were stupid. But government cannot solve the problem, in fact government made it possible for insurance companies to become monopolies.) Get insurance companies and government out of health care and the bubble will burst.

But as messed up as it is, this is the country I want to live in. I don't want to live in Canada, UK, Netherlands or any other country that supposedly has a "better" health care system. I rarely come across a government program that I can get behind, but I propose this as the final solution. There is this thing called emigration. Everyone who is sick and tired of our health care system, or embarrassed to be an American because we just aren't socialist enough to be a part of the cool crowd at the UN should have the right to emigrate to another nation of their choosing. And in order to insure everyone has this right, the government will subsidize the cost of emigration for everyone who cannot pay their own way. (in order to make the perpetual leaseholder from san jose happy lets insist that anyone leaving the USA must also leave behind all assets). This way everyone is happy, the socialists get to be amongst their comrades, the free loaders get to hang out on their socialist buddies dollar, and the liberty loving remainder of citizens of the Republic that is the United States get to move on with their lives and their earnings still intact.

Everyone who is sick and tired of our health care system, or embarrassed the be an American because we just aren’t socialist enough to be a part of the cool crowd at the UN should have the right to emigrate to another nation of their choosing
who the heck are you are to tell us to emigrate...i would suggest you move to somalia. i heard its completely free market there and individual liberty is so highly regarded that they don't even believe in government. If you don't like our idea of universal health care, please do us a favor and join your comrades in africa.

I'm not asking anyone to leave, just giving everyone who hates our health care system and lack of socialism the right to let their feet do the talking. It is the socialists who constantly coo about how great it is in other countries. If it is so great why not emigrate?

It is the socialists who constantly coo about how great it is in other countries. If it is so great why not emigrate?

because its not practical...would you move to other countries once we become socialist and you keep complaining about socialism and how good other capitalistic coutries are ?

We should send appleannie to somalia where its a completely free market and complete freedom..no govt .haha.
For the rest of us who believe in collective progress, sharing and caring, lets push for universal health care.

San Jose,

No, I believe emigration is practical. It is the reason our founding fathers moved here in the first place. To seek a land where they could live in peace and prosperity without the restrictions on religion and such that existed in Europe and free from excessive government intrusion on private lives and property.

Please remember I am not making the argument that any nation is in any way superior to the USA as so many socialist and health care activists do. Canada this, UK that. If it is so great, emigrate.

We are not perfect but it is the only nation in the world I want to live in.

there is no place left for us to run … we will be forced to close ranks and hold off the hording bands of hungry dope smoking sexual deviant leftists. And that is why we keep buying guns and ammo … there are alot of liberal freaks that will get hungrier when all the producers stop sharing, so ammo is needed …. it’s a grasshopper and ant thing. See ya hopper.

US population is approx 300 million. lets divide all the resources ( water, land, labor and capital) in to 300 million parts and If you can produce something out of your share of resources...we will not bother you. deal ?

Please remember I am not making the argument that any nation is in any way superior to the USA as so many socialist and health care activists do. Canada this, UK that. If it is so great, emigrate.

We are not perfect but it is the only nation in the world I want to live in.
Nobody is saying these countries are superior...they are just saying that thier HEALTH CARE SYSTEM is superior. they love everything else about america..OK.

Get insurance companies and government out of health care and the bubble will burst.

And then what?

Who's the angel with the perfectly level head who'll pick apart the good bits from the bad bits and patch together the ideal system for us all? The reality is that some other swindler will step in and remove your money from a different pocket on your trousers.

What makes the most sense is that we all just flat-out refuse to ever fall ill or age.

Renter,

Yeah, if they love everything else why did you say we need to confiscate everyone's property and redistribute it every 10 years?

Yeah, if they love everything else why did you say we need to confiscate everyone’s property and redistribute it every 10 years?

because we have to do that eventually once the resources in US become limited and a bottleneck..we need to plan ahead...if you don't like the 10 years number, we can work on some other number which is agreable :-)

Without banning inheritence, we cannot give all god's kid equal oppurtunity ? can we ?
some kids will always have unfair advantage...especially once the resources become limited and it becomes a zero sum game.

Besides, I don't believe their health care systems are superior. If I get sick I want to get sick in the USA. Wouldn't you agree? Name a place in the world you would rather get sick in and I will chip in to pay for your move.

And in addition to top notch health care facilities in the USA we also are the home of most of the innovation in the form of pharmaceuticals. Not to shabby for a nation with one of the "lowest grade health care sytems" in the western world. The entire world is sucking off the nipple of American innovation.

renter for ever_san jose says

Yeah, if they love everything else why did you say we need to confiscate everyone’s property and redistribute it every 10 years?
because we have to do that eventually once the resources in US become limited and a bottleneck..we need to plan ahead…if you don’t like the 10 years number, we can work on some other number which is agreable
Without banning inheritence, we cannot give all god’s kid equal oppurtunity ? can we ?

some kids will always have unfair advantage…especially once the resources become limited and it becomes a zero sum game.

Achieving monetary equality is a socialist crack pipe dream. We are created equally but we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us. The state has no right to take away what God gives.

Without banning inheritence, we cannot give all god’s kid equal oppurtunity ? can we ?

I don’t believe their health care systems are superior. If I get sick I want to get sick in the USA. Wouldn’t you agree? YES ..IF YOU ARE RICH. if you are middleclass or poor, there are other countries to look forward to. BTW, if you haven't noticed, we moved to democracy long time back. We serve the interest of maximum number of people not just people who are rich.

renter for ever_san jose says

Without banning inheritence, we cannot give all god’s kid equal oppurtunity ? can we ?
I don’t believe their health care systems are superior. If I get sick I want to get sick in the USA. Wouldn’t you agree? YES ..IF YOU ARE RICH. if you are middleclass or poor, there are other countries to look forward to. BTW, if you haven’t noticed, we moved to democracy long time back. We serve the interest of maximum number if people not just people who are rich.

If that were true we would not be having this conversation.

we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us
utter B.S ..sounds like some crap that has no sound reasoning. it sounds like some taliban stuff.
looks like good lord has some favourites !

nobody is saying we want monetary equality. I am just saying equal oppurtunity for kids.

banning inheritance is in the pipleline...just wait for few years !

But didn't you just say:

renter for ever_san jose says

Nobody is saying these countries are superior…they are just saying that thier HEALTH CARE SYSTEM is superior. they love everything else about america..OK.

Renter,

Now you are saying we need health care reform and complete wealth redistribution? Sounds UN a lot of things to me:
beginning with unConstitutional

we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us
lord ordered all women to wear burkah's - Taliban

>Now you are saying we need health care reform and complete wealth redistribution? Sounds UN a lot of things to me:
beginning with unConstitutional

How did you feel about Trickle Down Economics? A different model of wealth redistribution.

renter for ever_san jose says

we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us

lord ordered all women to wear burkah’s

Don't fight it, you know it to be true. We are not all born with the same gifts that is why you are so much more intelligent than ( -fill in the blank).

who care's if its unconstitutional....I only care if its the right thing or not.
nobody is asking for complete wealth distribution. you can earn whatever you want and keep it yourself and spend it . .you just cannot pass it on to your kids because they didn't earn it, you earned it.
that way everybody starts from the same level and reap the benefits of thier labor not because of some unfair advantage.

How did you feel about Trickle Down Economics? A different model of wealth redistribution

Trickle down worked great in closed borders because the rich had to get services within border and thus part with thier money so everybody reaped the benefits..with globalization, the rich are getting services and labor from outside the countries so its not trickling down to US citizens..you saw how trickle down worked for the past decade ?right ?

we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us

we are not born with property ..ok..its utter bullshit to assume that.

Austinhousingbubble says

>Now you are saying we need health care reform and complete wealth redistribution? Sounds UN a lot of things to me:

beginning with unConstitutional

How did you feel about Trickle Down Economics? A different model of wealth redistribution.

I feel that "trickle down economics" is most often used to muddy the waters of real debate (by both the left and the right). It means little and adds little to this conversation. The rich always find a way to get richer, but that should not scare us as long as we have a Constitution which guarantees certain inalienable rights. In fact we should be happy to see our neighbor get rich. It means that there is hope for us too to prosper. And if he is our friend perhaps he will share his bounty with us as well (though we have no right to force or expect him to do so).

>.you just cannot pass it on to your kids because they didn’t earn it, you earned it.

Why? We don't have rights pass our wealth to whoever we choose?
Who decides this?

renter for ever_san jose says

who care’s if its unconstitutional….I only care if its the right thing or not.

nobody is asking for complete wealth distribution. you can earn whatever you want and keep it yourself and spend it . .you just cannot pass it on to your kids because they didn’t earn it, you earned it.

that way everybody starts from the same level and reap the benefits of thier labor not because of some unfair advantage.

This just plain doesn't make any sense. If I can spend my money any way I want when I am alive then if I die slowly I will have the opportunity to give all my possessions away before I die thus enabling me to cheat your dream of a system. But I am sure you have a great answer to that too right?

Why? We don’t have rights pass our wealth to whoever we choose?
Who decides this?

You have the same right as somebody else who has the right to take it away from you.

There is no logical reason for a person to have the right to pass on his property to someone else. you can pass on....personal stuff but not assets which belong to everybody else. land and capital is something which onces passed on to someone who didn't earn it, gives unfair advantage to them.

imagine a lion telling its cubs to stay away from a piece of forest when they grow up because that was passed on by an alpha lion to its cubs..do you think it will work.all lions have to earn thier alpha status not leech on to thier parents.

"This just plain doesn’t make any sense. If I can spend my money any way I want when I am alive then if I die slowly I will have the opportunity to give all my possessions away before I die thus enabling me to cheat your dream of a system. But I am sure you have a great answer to that too right?"

Thats why we have inheritance tax !! need to increase that rate soon.

people should earn thier own living after 21 years and anything they recieve after that age should be taxed.
We need GOOD public health and education to make sure all kids have equal oppurtunity.