patrick.net

CBOEtrader says

I would love to hear some honest criticism of “Income Tax: The root of all evil” by one of the educated liberals in the forum

I don't claim to be either educated or a liberal, but I find the essay to be less than persuasive. All the Judeo-Christian morality and talk of evil serves to get peoples' emotions going, but doesn't really present a good case.

For me the question is simple. The government needs revenue--everyone agrees to that. So, what is the fairest way to generate this while allowing the economy to flourish. Taxes aren't good or evil. They are just a way to collect revenue for the government.

tatupu70 says

CBOEtrader says

I would love to hear some honest criticism of “Income Tax: The root of all evil” by one of the educated liberals in the forum

I don’t claim to be either educated or a liberal, but I find the essay to be less than persuasive. All the Judeo-Christian morality and talk of evil serves to get peoples’ emotions going, but doesn’t really present a good case.
For me the question is simple. The government needs revenue–everyone agrees to that. So, what is the fairest way to generate this while allowing the economy to flourish. Taxes aren’t good or evil. They are just a way to collect revenue for the government.

It doesn't sound like you read the essay. Chodorov uses very logical arguments, and NEVER uses emotion baiting. You are also wrong about your premise. I, for one, do not agree that the government needs revenue. The federal government needs to massively cut spending, and give power back to the states.

CBOEtrader says

It doesn’t sound like you read the essay. Chodorov uses very logical arguments, and NEVER uses emotion baiting. You are also wrong about your premise. I, for one, do not agree that the government needs revenue. The federal government needs to massively cut spending, and give power back to the states.

OK--we'll have to agree to disagree then. Here's an example of what I meant:
Thus, the fabric of Judeo-Christian morality is undergoing deterioration as a result of the "evil" that has infiltrated our political life
How about this--boil down the logical arguments for me then. Just a few bullet points. And "income tax is evil" doesn't qualify.
And btw--I agree we need to reduce spending, but that wasn't the point of the discussion. There will always need to be some governmental revenues, so the question is how to collect them.

AdHominem says

You named a bunch of “liberal” states. Try ND, NH, MT

North Dakota population: 646,844, 70 acres of land per person (much of it highly productive), abundant energy resources -- it would be hard to screw that economy up. It also helps they get $1.68 for every $1.00 they send to DC.

Wikipedia: "North Dakota is also the only state with a state owned bank, the Bank of North Dakota in Bismarck, and a state owned flour mill, the North Dakota Mill and Elevator in Grand Forks."

OMG! ND has caught Teh Socialism!

New Hampshire, Population 1,324,575

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9DM87LG0.htm

wut? They already have Teh Socialism too!

Montana, Population 974,989

Montana is one of the bigger Red State Welfare Queens -- taking in $1.50 for every dollar in taxes, so I wonder why you brought them up.

Now, I realize in your cartoon view of the economy we should all strive to be the rugged individualists of Montana and Alaska of the early 20th century.

No thanks. We can do better than that.

I would love to hear some honest criticism of “Income Tax: The root of all evil” by one of the educated liberals in the forum

I'm kinda neutral on the income tax; I believe what the taxman doesn't take off the top will just end up in rents and higher mortgage payments. Any dollar the goverment takes and spends wisely is fine by me, given the current fallen state of affairs.

The essayist you linked to happens to have been a Georgist like me, btw. If I were king I'd tax property first, last, and very hard.

None of this buying up SFHs to rent out. That's pure economic bullshit and if I were in charge I'd go Ho Chi Minh on such behavior. Proprietors leasing commercial space would know the ground rent they're paying is going to the local government and not some absentee LL living the good life off of their hard work.

After that, directly taxing incomes for such things as single-payer insurance, pensions, etc seems reasonable.

tatupu70 says

OK–we’ll have to agree to disagree then. Here’s an example of what I meant:
Thus, the fabric of Judeo-Christian morality is undergoing deterioration as a result of the “evil” that has infiltrated our political life

Well, in that particular section he starts off definining "evil" as the opposite of good. He then goes to explain that, "The American tradition rests its case squarely on the premise that the human being is endowed with rights by his very existence; that is what makes him human. Hence, any political action which attempts to violate these rights violates his human-ness, and thus becomes "evil.""

I really don't have time to create an executive summary of Chodorov's 50 page essay. Sorry, maybe another time. Though, the most important point would be how the federal income tax usurped the sovereignty from the states.

CBOEtrader says

I really don’t have time to create an executive summary of Chodorov’s 50 page essay. Sorry, maybe another time. Though, the most important point would be how the federal income tax usurped the sovereignty from the states.

lol--you have time to write 3 posts tonight, but you can't write a few bullet points? Whatever you say...

tatupu70 says

CBOEtrader says

I really don’t have time to create an executive summary of Chodorov’s 50 page essay. Sorry, maybe another time. Though, the most important point would be how the federal income tax usurped the sovereignty from the states.

lol–you have time to write 3 posts tonight, but you can’t write a few bullet points? Whatever you say…

Good point. I am writing this much today/tonight because I am procrastinating in writing up a business plan for a meeting with some venture capital types on Tuesday.

Writing down the actual bullet points clearly takes no time, but I would have to go back through his essay to make sure I could get the same umph out of my bullet points as his essay delivers. His 50 page essay is pretty densely packed with information. Chodorov, in general, is quite the writer. I suggest you read anything by him.

Troy, seriously, after hearing you call youself a Georgist for the fifth time, I went and read the Wiki. I must admit, I am intrigued. What paper, or writer would you suggest I look up if I wanted to know more?

Nomograph says

CBOEtrader says

I am writing this much today/tonight because I am procrastinating in writing up a business plan for a meeting with some venture capital types on Tuesday.

Good luck. The here in San Diego biotech VC guys can’t seem to scratch up a dime these days. Very little is getting off the ground.

Thanks man! We aren't looking for much and are very close to operating at a profit, so we have a shot. The most likely scenario is that we get money from another company in the business as part of a strategic partnership rather than an investment from a silent third party.

I am not expecting much from the venture capital types. That is part of why I am dragging my feet on writing this nonsense. They want projections that I have to pull out of my ass. I really don't want to pull anything out of my ass, and therein lies my problem with the VC jerks.

AdHominem says

By the way, is it possible for you to make an argument in a civilized manner without making an ass of yourself?

Perhaps you should read what you write. You are confrontational, accusing, lacking a factual basis and attack others who disagree with you (which seems to be many, many people). You don't debate, you cry victim and know not whereof you speak.

In other words, it doesn't seem possible for you to make any argument in a civilized manner, and you continually make an ass of yourself. Any pertinent argument you may have is lost, and don't AdHominem says

happen to be mildly successful when compared to (your) peers

at least when it comes to presenting valid arguments. Just because you've driven so many others away doesn't make you a winner. It does, however, make you a whiner.

You know, I don't even know why we bother arguing with people like this anymore. No amount of fact, logic, or reason will change his opinions.

And lets be honest -- it's not like his opinions matter anyway.

Troy says

AdHominem says

You named a bunch of “liberal” states. Try ND, NH, MT

North Dakota population: 646,844, 70 acres of land per person (much of it highly productive), abundant energy resources — it would be hard to screw that economy up. It also helps they get $1.68 for every $1.00 they send to DC.
Wikipedia: “North Dakota is also the only state with a state owned bank, the Bank of North Dakota in Bismarck, and a state owned flour mill, the North Dakota Mill and Elevator in Grand Forks.”
OMG! ND has caught Teh Socialism!
New Hampshire, Population 1,324,575
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9DM87LG0.htm
wut? They already have Teh Socialism too!
Montana, Population 974,989
Montana is one of the bigger Red State Welfare Queens — taking in $1.50 for every dollar in taxes, so I wonder why you brought them up.
Now, I realize in your cartoon view of the economy we should all strive to be the rugged individualists of Montana and Alaska of the early 20th century.
No thanks. We can do better than that.

My point is that these states aren't broke. Are they? But otherwise it was a nice post you just had drama queen.

elliemae says

AdHominem says

By the way, is it possible for you to make an argument in a civilized manner without making an ass of yourself?

Perhaps you should read what you write. You are confrontational, accusing, lacking a factual basis and attack others who disagree with you (which seems to be many, many people). You don’t debate, you cry victim and know not whereof you speak.
In other words, it doesn’t seem possible for you to make any argument in a civilized manner, and you continually make an ass of yourself. Any pertinent argument you may have is lost, and don’t AdHominem says

happen to be mildly successful when compared to (your) peers

at least when it comes to presenting valid arguments. Just because you’ve driven so many others away doesn’t make you a winner. It does, however, make you a whiner.

Well coming from such a stable, nurturing and caring individual as you that really makes me feel.... satisfied.

Kevin says

You know, I don’t even know why we bother arguing with people like this anymore. No amount of fact, logic, or reason will change his opinions.
And lets be honest — it’s not like his opinions matter anyway.

right back atcha Kev

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

Your military suggestion is also laughable. You are suggesting I join and add further support to Empirical USA

I would never make such a suggestion. You made the somewhat bizarre claim that I belong to an elite class that has access to opportunities that you don’t have, and I simply pointed out that you have the exact same opportunities that I did.

Nomograph says

Log off, join the military,

looks like you said join the military. I guess I don't know if anything you say you mean anymore. The military is just the dirty strong arm of corporate America in its thirst for profit at any cost. The US military hasn't done much in the way of righteous might since it liberated the concentration camps. And even that was not our fight.

If you are not an elitist, what percentage of Americans do you think has the "exact same opportunities" and capabilities as you? Like I said, I am not claiming that you don't deserve your success, nor that it can be achieved by a few others who also work hard. I state merely that the opportunities that you have had are NOT there for everyone, and especially that poor people are not capable of preserving what little wealth they have due to the inflationary monetary system we have. Furthermore the powerful AMA has created a monopoly on medicine that puts you in an elite class and this fact warrants your recognition. And when it comes to the military it is the poor who tend to die on the front lines while the elites like GW Bush and perhaps Nomograph who get to stand under the "mission accomplished" banner and pose with the flight-suit.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

If you are not an elitist, what percentage of Americans do you think has the “exact same opportunities” and capabilities as you?

Every US citizen has the same opportunities that I had. Not every US citizen has the same capabilities. It doesn’t surprise me that, beneath the rhetoric, you actually hate our free-market, merit-based society because you can’t compete, and you want some giant nanny-state government affirmative action program for low performers. First you want the government to handle your finances and savings for you, and now you want the government to decide who succeeds regardless of capabilities? Just how much of your life are you willing to turn over to the government? Are you afraid of freedom, AdHominem?

Actually I was hoping for a government that protects everyone equally. This means the man with $20 should be able to put his money in a bank and buy essentially the same amount of goods and services with in in 5, 10 or 20 years. Why should the man have to suffer the debasement of his currency? Government doesn't have to spend much effort or resources on this. In fact it takes great effort to debase a currency, you have to go out of your way to produce more FIAT dollars (of course in the digital age you just type a few zeros and press enter). It also requires a monopoly on money. Which is something we need to end.

The system that we have now guarantees that storage of wealth in dollars is a loosing investment, and in fact encourages mal-investment. This is to the detriment of the masses and the benefit of the elites. You are an elitist. You claim that everyone needs to be "smart" like you join the military (ie the Imperial US killing machine), buy property and game the system just like you. Everyone can't game the system, it is ponzi scheme. In an inflationary economy there have to be more losers than winners. Why? Becuase the lower class is always hurt worse than the elite upper class, they find it immensely more difficult if not impossible to make investments in "assets" that won't lose value. I don't begrudge you your status, (except for the monopoly of the AMA on medicine) nor do I think we need a Nanny state to make sure you and I and everyone else suffer the same. But what we do need is a sound monetary system so that savings is rewarded, debt is discouraged/costly, and mal-investment is not encouraged. If you think it is too much to ask that government protect a sound money system, then at least we need a government that allows competing currencies so that people can choose one that won't be debased on the free market.

Private property is the foundation of a free society. Private property includes currency. Unless we have a government that protects its currenc(ies) from debasement by the special interests and elites, the average and below average individual (the majority) will continue to lose freedom and his pursuit of happiness will be curtailed.

AdHominem says

Why should the man have to suffer the debasement of his currency?

That's the point. He doesn't have to... Buy inflation protected T-Bills instead. How hard is that?

AdHominem says

Becuase the lower class is always hurt worse than the elite upper class, they find it immensely more difficult if not impossible to make investments in “assets” that won’t lose value.

Again-that is the exact opposite of truth.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Why should the man have to suffer the debasement of his currency?

That’s the point. He doesn’t have to… Buy inflation protected T-Bills instead. How hard is that?

You are funny. Why don't we just all use TIPS as our national medium of exchange then? One act of congress could give us this stable money system.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Becuase the lower class is always hurt worse than the elite upper class, they find it immensely more difficult if not impossible to make investments in “assets” that won’t lose value.

Again-that is the exact opposite of truth.

Yeah, your probably right. Joe the plumber has the upper hand in earning and preserving wealth over Harriet the Heiress.

AdHominem says

You are funny. Why don’t we just all use TIPS as our national medium of exchange then? One act of congress could give us this stable money system

Because TIPS aren't a currency. They are an investment. When you want to store wealth, you buy TIPS. When you want to purchase goods or services, you use currency. Do you see the distinction?

AdHominem says

Yeah, your probably right. Joe the plumber has the upper hand in earning and preserving wealth over Harriet the Heiress.

OK--quick quiz for you Ad Hom. Which class has more wealth to store--upper or lower? And the followup-does inflation hurt people who save or people who live paycheck to paycheck more?

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Yeah, your probably right. Joe the plumber has the upper hand in earning and preserving wealth over Harriet the Heiress.

OK–quick quiz for you Ad Hom. Which class has more wealth to store–upper or lower? And the followup-does inflation hurt people who save or people who live paycheck to paycheck more?

Ok quick quiz for you TAT.
1. Who benefits most from the complicated tax code combined with an inflationary monetary policy; the guy who can afford a tax attorney and financial advisor or the guy who is trying to just save a hundred bucks a week for retirement?
2. If a guy with a million dollars loses ten percent, and a guy with 100 dollars loses ten percent, who is going to suffer the biggest loss in standard of living?

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

You are funny. Why don’t we just all use TIPS as our national medium of exchange then? One act of congress could give us this stable money system

Because TIPS aren’t a currency. They are an investment. When you want to store wealth, you buy TIPS. When you want to purchase goods or services, you use currency. Do you see the distinction?

Money isn't an investment? Are you kidding me? It is not only an investment it is one that we are essentially FORCED to make or at least accept, for all debts public and private.

It seems to me we are both arguing almost EXACTLY the same point, just that you seem to think Big Government is somehow different than Big Business. In fact the two cannot exist without one another. Big Busness needs a big government to help it out and eliminate competition. The two are inseperable unless BIG GOVERNMENT RUNS ALL Business. So we see that Socialism, and the quasi-capitalism/big governments we have in the west are really just about the SAME EXACT thing.

In a free market, credit is expensive. Meaning risk is factored in to all credit agreements. We haven't had a free market in years, in any part of the world, because credit was so cheap it cost you money NOT to borrow.

That is not a free market and you know it. The Federal Reserve and our fraudulent fractional reserve banking system create malinvestment, and socialize risk while privatizing profit (central banks around the world working together did the same thing). That is what the creators of the Creature from Jekyll Island wanted and that is what they got. You can argue till your beak falls off but unless we have sound money we will never have a free market let alone a sound economy.

Nomograph says

DO think it’s the government’s job to watch over your wealth.

Wait, no did I just say that. No actually it was you. However it may be governments job to protect its citizens from theft. Rather than being the boss crime lord.

Nomograph says

NEWSFLASH: It’s your job to acquire, protect, and grow your wealth, not the government’s.

and who will protect me from "my" government?

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson, Letter 1802 to Secretary of the Treasury.

Welcome to the future Mr. Jefferson.

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Yeah, your probably right. Joe the plumber has the upper hand in earning and preserving wealth over Harriet the Heiress.

OK–quick quiz for you Ad Hom. Which class has more wealth to store–upper or lower? And the followup-does inflation hurt people who save or people who live paycheck to paycheck more?

Ok quick quiz for you TAT.

1. Who benefits most from the complicated tax code combined with an inflationary monetary policy; the guy who can afford a tax attorney and financial advisor or the guy who is trying to just save a hundred bucks a week for retirement?

2. If a guy with a million dollars loses ten percent, and a guy with 100 dollars loses ten percent, who is going to suffer the biggest loss in standard of living?

You still think the little guy benefits from inflation?

AdHominem says

Ok quick quiz for you TAT.
1. Who benefits most from the complicated tax code combined with an inflationary monetary policy; the guy who can afford a tax attorney and financial advisor or the guy who is trying to just save a hundred bucks a week for retirement?
2. If a guy with a million dollars loses ten percent, and a guy with 100 dollars loses ten percent, who is going to suffer the biggest loss in standard of living?

1. Didn't know we were discussing tax code. Where did you come up with that??
2. The million dollar guy for sure. $100K is definitely going to hurt him. I doubt that $10 is going to hurt anyone.

AdHominem says

Money isn’t an investment? Are you kidding me? It is not only an investment it is one that we are essentially FORCED to make or at least accept, for all debts public and private.

No--not kidding. Money is a currency. We are forced to accept it for debts, but we aren't FORCED to hold it. Most people keep some of it to pay the bills, and then invest the rest of it in whatever instrument they believe will give them the greatest return. If you believe inflation will erode the value of your dollars--then I recommend investing in an inflation hedge. You could invest in China or Europe, buy gold, buy real estate, etc... I just wouldn't hold a bunch of dollars, if I were you and believed what you believed.

There is fraud and waste in both the private sector and in government, but there is much more fraud and waste in government for the simple reason that that government workers lack the incentives to avoid wasteful decisions. If the Census bureau decides to spend/waste money on a Superbowl ad as they did last Sunday, there are no repurcussions, whereas in private industry, overspending on advertisements that don't provide a return means losing one's job, or forfeiting a bonus. As an example, many cities hire and pay workers to go to restaurants in order to harass the owners to display "our wines have sulfates" signs. Is that a good use of city resources? Of course not, yet those who make such decisions in government almost never pay a price, and in many cases they are rewarded with larger bureaucracies and more $$. Bad private sector decisions typically have negative consequences that govt. workers would not have to face. Hence, more wasteful, crappy decisions are made by government. Despite the poor economy, there is a federal jobs boom in DC, because they're spending other people's money.

Even worse, government legislates a different set of rules for themselves. Accounting rules followed by govt. would land a private sector company in jail for accounting fraud. Off-budget items such as Fannie/Freddie losses are commonplace throughout govt.

World improver's and do-gooders will always be with us. They spend more than they have, push and boss other people around and generally make the world a worse place to live. Paper money is a handy tool for world improver's. They use it like politicians use civil service jobs and generals use heavy bombers - to get what they want. Paper money is irresistible to morally corrupt politicians. It doesn't take much to increase the money supply by a factor of 10, or even 100 - simply add zero's. But adding zero's does not add value.

No paper currency has ever held its value. Politicians and central bankers (THE FED) want money they can debase. Gold on the other hand doesn't cooperate. Gold turns its back on world improver's, empire builders and do-gooders. Thats why morally corrupt people like paper "money" and hate gold or gold backed real money.

Recommended Reading: Empire of Debt, Bill Bonner. Also look up: Inflation, the effects of. And one more thing to drive "progressives" nuts...The Constitution.

It's comforting to see that Abe dropped by to post his regular talking points. He reminds of the carpenter who only has a hammer in his toolbox--everything looks like a nail to him....

And TAt, my "friend", you remind me of one who doesn't learn from other's mistakes, let alone your own. Apparently you don't learn at all, nor bother to READ. You have no tolerance for sound money, think inflation is fine, are comfortable with the concept of bossing others around. You hate freedom, private property rights and the like. Your thoughts are always "right" and others (those with common sense and the ability or read) are always "wrong" haha, you make me laugh. Life must be beautiful in "LaLa land". Blah, blah blah.

My next post will be about the evils of THE FED, the fraud and theft that they create and how the free market is deceived by central planning. Wait, why not post all your supportive points of THE FED now. That way I can discredit all your phony comments in advance. Go ahead, list all your supportive comments and talking points about THE FED. I can't wait. Abe.

Abe--

How perceptive you are. You've got me pegged--a freedom hating, inflation loving, communistic tyrant.

But, I wouldn't want to spoil your Fed is evil post. So please enlighten us again--I won't stand in your way...

No...I asked first.

tatupu70 says

It’s comforting to see that Abe dropped by to post his regular talking points. He reminds of the carpenter who only has a hammer in his toolbox–everything looks like a nail to him….

Ad Hominem

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says
It’s comforting to see that Abe dropped by to post his regular talking points. He reminds of the carpenter who only has a hammer in his toolbox–everything looks like a nail to him….
Ad Hominem

Nice try--but it's not ad hominem at all. I was simply stating that Abe doesn't really argue the point at hand, but instead posts the same critique of fiat currency every time.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says

It’s comforting to see that Abe dropped by to post his regular talking points. He reminds of the carpenter who only has a hammer in his toolbox–everything looks like a nail to him….

Ad Hominem

Nice try–but it’s not ad hominem at all. I was simply stating that Abe doesn’t really argue the point at hand, but instead posts the same critique of fiat currency every time.

I heard a story of a preacher who preached the same sermon every Sunday. Eventually someone complained to him about it. He said, when you get the first message I will give you another.