patrick.net

azrob00 says

what a bunch of idiot responses. For clarification, I’ve been writing about the bubble, predicting prices dropping since 2005; Look me up on zillow, azrob… you can search for some classics like “get in the lifeboats now” where I predicted a steep decline in Phoenix prices.
And guess what? on lower priced homes, you get multiple offers. Period. take an area that has homes listed at 500K, list one for $425K and dozens of offers pour in. Now, even if I as the listing agent have 10 offers, if someone else asks, I’m going to encourage them to write one. An offer isn’t a contract until my seller signs it, and my duty is to get the seller the highest price. Plus a seller might want a stronger offer: more downpayment, not FHA, quicker close, whatever.
So smugly laugh and write some more allegedly witty remarks, most of the times the agent isn’t lying in my experience.

My comments were not jokes. If you have multiple offers, why tell me? If you are looking for advice, the only advice I could give an agent is to take the highest offer that can actually pay. My offers will always be base on what I think the place is worth and what I can afford and not what others are offering. If anyone changes their offer based on the comment that there are other offers and then becomes the highest bidder their offer will more likely fall through today.

Why turn a sure sale into a possible lost sale by talking people into paying more than what they are able to? I am sure this tactic work well during the boom; you are an idiot if you think it is going to serve you well during the bust.

BTW, what is your record for selling the same house multiple times, 3, 5, 12 times? I am guessing that during the bust agents gloated about the number times they sold the same house? It would have been to your advantage to sale to people that could not afford the house so that it would be back on the market sooner. Since you had multiple offers for that house, it should have been a sure sale each time you got it back on the market.

Some realtors would even send unsolicited post cards to targeted houses suggesting now is the time to sale. I think I just figured out why.

azrob00 says

So smugly laugh and write some more allegedly witty remarks, most of the times the agent isn’t lying in my experience.

Why thank you for your permission to smugly laugh. But my remarks "allegedly" witty? I take exception with your description of the stuff we say here - 'cause we're creative and funny. Perhaps you don't have a sense of humor... most realtors don't these days. Again, there's nothing "alleged" about my witty repartee - nor is there anything "alleged" about the hilarious comments of many others here on this board.

I read some of your comments. Congrats on "calling" the bubble - you were the only one in the world doing so at the time. I'll just ignore Irvine Housing Blog, Patrick.net, and Dr. Housing Bubble's predictions... along with hundreds of other bloggers' predictions.

If you had been following the postings of several patnet diehards, you'd realize that you were behind the curve. For example, there's a hermit living somewhere near Oil City PA who's in his early 20's, selling stuff on ebay, riding his bike, growing his own veggies and practicing zerosexuality, who smugly predicted the end of the world as well.

There are people here who are attempting to buy now and are speaking with condescending realtors who insist that they have multiple offers and tell the prospective buyers not to bother unless they jack up their offer - and it's sleazy. The real estate "profession" is full of desperate liars who are in it for their own benefit, the higher the offer, the more the realtor makes for doing nothing.

Nomograph says

Wow, you’re like WAY smarter than everyone else and stuff.

You're a math professor who sells real estate on the side. During the bubble years did you present yourself as a realtor who was a math professor on the side? If you were in California, would you present yourself as an actor first, a math professor second?

Just askin'

Elliemae's feelings are hurt, 'cause someone implied she's not funny. Here she sits, all broken hearted...

Nomograph says

azrob00 says

what a bunch of idiot responses.

You sound upset. What’s the matter?
azrob00 says

I’ve been writing about the bubble, predicting prices dropping since 2005; Look me up on zillow, azrob

Wow, you’re like WAY smarter than everyone else and stuff.
azrob00 says

I as the listing agent

Ah, I see. Get a job, sir. The bums lost.

You ... you ... you ... human PARAQUAT!

here is my comeback:

"Maybe we can work out a deal, lets say those 6 offers dissapear if I allow you to represent me on this house? You can then double dip and get commissions on both sides, all I am asking that you lower the asking price 5%. You will still make far more with the 6% commission than you would accepting one of those multiple offers."

The game is to get them to buy into the idea that 6% is much higher than 3%, only do this if you really want the place.

When I'm told that the seller has multiple offers, I'm tempted to tell the broker that we've also put offers on several other houses. Fear of loss works both ways ...

Fitzclarence: putting offers on multiple homes could set you up to be sued. If two sellers sign those offers, before you rescind one of them, you will be committed to buying both homes. committed as in legally bound to buy both.

Now, I know from the other thread, you guys don't need agents, you know everything. However, if that happened to my seller, who passed on other offers to take yours only to have you cancel because you liked your other contract better, you could expect litigation, and a very expensive lesson.

On the original subject, when an agent says they have multiple offers, they almost certainly do. They may be weak offers, low offers, whatever. Without written permission from our seller, we can't tell you how many or for what amount anyways. So would you prefer the agent tell you nothing? That certainly pisses buyers off too when they spend the time to write and deliver an offer.

Here is what I see on this thread: a bunch of people who are far too eager to buy. You are likely buying way too early, in the eye of the storm so to speak, and will watch prices drop again over the next few years. The shadow inventory still coming is sufficient to tank the market, but rather than do the logical thing, and wait another year or two, you'd rather claim all the agents are lying presently, when presently supply versus demand are not on your side, homes truly are getting multiple offers.

And how about the other clever technique used by real estate agents: "They're only accepting full-price offers"? What are some ways to get around that, other than walking away and hoping that time will reduce the price like a waterfall wearing away the rocks underneath?

Or the classic low ball offer thru the listing agent hoping for a double commission. He will discourage you to put an offer in at all.

This is what I've seen happening in the market that I am interested in. List price: $400k. Offer 375k. Buyer agent interested in helping his guy put in an offer of $450k, calls the agent to try to get "information." Listing agent says "we have multiple offers. They are all very high. You're gonna need to go into the $500k range if you want this property."

Buyer agent relays that information to buyer - thus, pumped up price. Seriously. Most buyers in my market will be pissed off if they had to show all bids publically after the sale is closed. You get people outbidding the second highest by $100k all because the buyer agent encouraged them to do it with information they deemed reliable from the seller agent. What do they care? It's not their money. Just tell the buyer what the seller agent said.

@azrob00

I would say you've got about 50% of the crowd pinned. While the other 50% believe that even in good times, the average realtor adds nothing to the mix. By having so many bad ones out there, it just ruins good and bad times by having idiots hyped up by people who don't understand the market at all and will do whatever they're told is the best way to buy a good investment.

On top of that, the majority see house buying as wealth transfer, which doesn't need two people and a large chunk of the transaction being taxed when both buying and selling.

If you put two offers in a home without any way to back out, you're already in trouble. A good vague clause is enough to get you off the hook in most cases. It must pass a general inspection is enough. "oh a light was burnt out... I don't want it.."

I don't see the need for a comeback. A buyer should already have in mind what they will pay for something, whether it is a car or a widget or a grocery item, and share that information with nobody.

Perhaps offer a lower price when it is practical to do so, like one would do for a house or a car or some other negotiable purchase, (but probably not a bunch of groceries at the supermarket).

If the item costs more than the buyer decided on his own ahead of time, well then there's no need for a comeback. Just don't buy the item. That is what happened when my partner and I made offers on some homes we didn't buy. The "buyer's agent" who we wound up not using anyway (for a different reason though) was getting frustrated saying that we ought to be "players".

In "Devil Take the Hindmost", economist Edward Chancellor wrote about similar bidding wars for things like Tulip Bulbs, South Seas Co. shares, Florida Real Estate in the 1920's.

azrob00 says

So smugly laugh and write some more allegedly witty remarks, most of the times the agent isn’t lying in my experience.

Just curious - how much experience do you have? You have one listing on zillow and are a full-time math professor. How many sales have you made in the past ten years?

Not counting ones where you represented yourself or any family members.

REpukes only lie when they communicate.

azrob00 says

homes truly are getting multiple offers.

without an open process to allow bids to be seen by any and all concerned, I am happy to remain a sceptic of the entire "multiple / cash / full-price / 20% over asking" game. But, thats just me.

Now it's been quite some time since I bought a house, but as I recall when we made an offer it was somewhat straight-forward. You put your offer plus your contingencies put a set period of time, say 48 hours for a response and send it with the realitor. If it's declined, you can amend your offer or walk away. If the seller accepts you put down an appropriate deposit and go through escrow. I have heard people talk of actually putting in a deposit WITH the offer. This seems an abuse to me to have my money with some shmuck while he plays his head games to attempt to squeeze a higher offer from you. They just want to lock you in to prevent you from finding another or better deal elsewhere. Total bullshit. I just let 'em know I'm interested in other homes and I'm going to buy one and maybe it will be theirs.

"If you're going to BS me and treat me like a fool, I'll do the same to you when I post your review Yelp."

azrob00 says

what a bunch of idiot responses. For clarification, I’ve been writing about the bubble, predicting prices dropping since 2005; Look me up on zillow, azrob… you can search for some classics like “get in the lifeboats now” where I predicted a steep decline in Phoenix prices

I will vouch for AZrob, i read some of his posts on Zillow some years back. Clearly a bear in my book.

Bap33 says

without an open process to allow bids to be seen by any and all concerned, I am happy to remain a sceptic of the entire “multiple / cash / full-price / 20% over asking” game. But, thats just me.

No! not just you Babs, pretty much everyone who is concerned about getting a real deal and not a Tojan horse instead. The process is broken. As I posted earlier, such practice has been exposed in Canada and Australia. Some trickle of bad (horrible!) practices have been exposed in the US, but very little is being done. Poor quality control leads to fraud and erosion of ethical values.

Totally agree with open bidding process. Being skeptial only lowers your risk of making a dreadful bad decision.

I wish More Realtors(tm) would read this Forum, wish more Realtors (tm) would post to this forum.

Danimal says

I wish More Realtors(tm) would read this Forum, wish more Realtors â„¢ would post to this forum.

LOL! reminds me of the scene in Casablanca with the French police closing Ricks down after the head of the police wins on the roulete table...

Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.
[aloud]
Captain Renault: Everybody out at once!

Asking prices should be eliminated :)

Make an offer and bid blindly with others. That will increase their success rate and finding a true sucker. That's the job of the seller agent anyways, of course, with the help of a buyer agent.

yes, lets make a law that tells a property owner how he can sell his property. Lets tell him:
1. you can't have a listing price.
2. you can't keep offers private.
3. you can't tell people you have multiple offers...

I'll just go shred the constitution now...

azrob .... get used to it. For the most part with very few exceptions, these people live in La La Land and think the world should operate according to their silly fantasies. They pretend to know how the real estate business works, but show through their comments that they don't have a clue. It's not only real estate, they typically hate all business. This site is a microcosm of opinions held by too many Americans in which business is always evil, government is always good. I hope I'm wrong because if I'm not, we're in very deep trouble and the hour is very late.

RayAmerica says

azrob …. get used to it. For the most part with very few exceptions, these people live in La La Land and think the world should operate according to their silly fantasies. They pretend to know how the real estate business works, but show through their comments that they don’t have a clue. It’s not only real estate, they typically hate all business. This site is a microcosm of opinions held by too many Americans in which business is always evil, government is always good. I hope I’m wrong because if I’m not, we’re in very deep trouble and the hour is very late.

Well, luckily for you, you're wrong. (again)

ptiemann says

Vain says

Asking prices should be eliminated

Make an offer and bid blindly with others. That will increase their success rate and finding a true sucker. That’s the job of the seller agent anyways, of course, with the help of a buyer agent.

interesting concept. I think buyers know the value best anyways.
Past December I was getting ready to sell a house and my realtor had already put his sign in the front yard. But we had not really decided on the listing price yet. We were toying with 289k or 299k to induce a bidding war, or list a bit higher like 320k and possibly give cash back at closing.
There were contractors working on the property and someone drove by and peeked in.. made an unsolicited offer of 310k. FHA which I could not accept at that time. So I listed and long story short, last month I finally closed escrow for 311k
It fell out of contract twice, the appraisals were 300k and 320k, and one offer was as high as 350k, but in the end, it sold for ($1k over) what the first buyer guessed to be the right price.
In total there were 12 offers on this property, but not all in one day.
Reasons why I support the idea of removing asking prices:
- short sales sometimes list ridiculously low just to get activity.. will never be approved at that level, but giving buyers the wrong idea of what the going price is
- truly uninformed/ unmotivated seller listing for 600k when identical units are selling for 400k

I agree. There should be reform on selling practices. If you put down an asking price, the home should go to the first one with that much money.

If you don't put an asking price, you let them bid blindly, and reject offers that don't meet your standards. Counter offering someone who bid list price sounds stupid to me (REO's do this alot).

>> Fitzclarence: putting offers on multiple homes could set you up to be sued. If two sellers sign those offers, before you rescind one of them, you will be committed to buying both homes. committed as in legally bound to buy both.

No, you can very easily create multiple offers to purchase, each one of them stating explicitly how you will decide which one of the accepted offers to entertain, if any.

For example, the algorithm could be first-come-first-served, or some rank order of preference, or perhaps "we'll look at all accepted offers on Wednesday and decide which one to entertain".

Turning the table on the REIC could be so much fun.

>> good comebacks for ‘we have multiple offers’ ?

Call me back when you are down to zero offers again, and I may buy it for only 5% less than my current offer (If I'm in a good mood).

azrob00 says

Fitzclarence: putting offers on multiple homes could set you up to be sued. If two sellers sign those offers, before you rescind one of them, you will be committed to buying both homes. committed as in legally bound to buy both.
Now, I know from the other thread, you guys don’t need agents, you know everything. However, if that happened to my seller, who passed on other offers to take yours only to have you cancel because you liked your other contract better, you could expect litigation, and a very expensive lesson.
On the original subject, when an agent says they have multiple offers, they almost certainly do. They may be weak offers, low offers, whatever. Without written permission from our seller, we can’t tell you how many or for what amount anyways. So would you prefer the agent tell you nothing? That certainly pisses buyers off too when they spend the time to write and deliver an offer.
Here is what I see on this thread: a bunch of people who are far too eager to buy. You are likely buying way too early, in the eye of the storm so to speak, and will watch prices drop again over the next few years. The shadow inventory still coming is sufficient to tank the market, but rather than do the logical thing, and wait another year or two, you’d rather claim all the agents are lying presently, when presently supply versus demand are not on your side, homes truly are getting multiple offers.

I think most on these threads are holding off on buying, I recently took Patrick's advice and rented a larger place in a nicer neighborhood. Now, I am waiting for prices to slowly drop....yes, they are stable for now but this was also the case in Japan 15 years ago.

Vain says

Make an offer and bid blindly with others. That will increase their success rate and finding a true sucker. That’s the job of the seller agent anyways, of course, with the help of a buyer agent.

That was the exact tactic used by agents in the early 90s. The freaking realtor clowns were so shell shocked that they couldnt figure what actual prices to quote or advertise. This may be the same case, but now they are afraid of being sued where they may lose their RE license and there personal assets.
They are not corporations, and you can go after their personal assets for fraud.

azrob00 says

yes, lets make a law that tells a property owner how he can sell his property. Lets tell him:
1. you can’t have a listing price.
2. you can’t keep offers private.
3. you can’t tell people you have multiple offers…
I’ll just go shred the constitution now…

Its not that much different from what the goverment did with Corporations and Accounting Firms with passing Sarbanes Oxley in the aftermath of Enron and Worldcom. Did the Constitution get shredded?No. This is a question of proper quality control which would have avoided the easy lending and boom in toxic ARM loans and all the fraud which it spawned.

One has to ask does one see 'multiple offers' on rentals ? Do you hear that from your landlord, I have other offers will you offer higher rent payment ? There are sharks out there, and that 6% commission is fixed, while everthing else to increase profits are wide open.

When i bought my home years ago and many others i know never had 'other multiple offers, will you go higher'. Its all fraud!

Yeah, that is why there are right now some 35,000 homes on the phoenix mls that don't have a single offer on them...21,000 with over 100 days and zero offers...

Most homes don't have multiple offers; Pick the home that is priced for 100K when all the similar homes are listed for 200K and guess what, THAT home will get lots and lots of offers...

As for rentals, same thing. The last time I advertised my one remaining rental on craigslist, I had three parties show up to rent it at the same time, and they bid it up by $50 a month, even in this poor rental market.

If a home doesn't have an offer on it, an agent is very unlikely to say it has multiple offers, for the simple fact that most people will not bother writing one in that case. One offer is hell of a lot better than none. I call agents all day long asking if they have any offers, and 90% of the time, the answer is no. Sometimes the answer is yes, but its not a very good offer, once in a while it is multiple offers. I have yet to see any evidence of lying.

Believe what you want, I've never seen a bigger group of clueless people who want to think they know everything then on here.

Most parts of the bay area are no where near done correcting, so let the multiple offer homes sell and wait. go read dr. housing bubble, l and quit arguing against reality, the buying time will come, and nobody will be saying "we have multiple offers" then, they will be saying "please give us an offer..."

azrob00 says

Believe what you want, I’ve never seen a bigger group of clueless people who want to think they know everything then on here.

...and yet you're still here. Why, if you're so much smarter than we are?

I am located in the Sacramento area and have observed some of the many ways MY REALTOR Friends pump up the numbers. From flat out lying to other techniques. Here are a few---that are very commonly used most everywhere:

1) Have the seller submit phoney information to ZILLOW- that show "upgrades" that never took place. There is minimal work done using paint and other CHEAP COSMETIC touchups. They than file lien on the house for bogus upgrades from a bogus company at a bogus high price. A month later they sign off the lien and it is removed. The alleged firm is usually in Mexico. This covers the seller and listing broker, when the house starts falling apart. I Know nothing about construction--ius rthe refrain -read the contracts. This scam set up by the Realtor listing the property. It helps build comp values. So they just put in 75k of upgrades---B.S! I have seen this.

2) The deposit is not made using a cashiers check or personal check. IT IS A PHOTOCOPY of the check---Listing Realtors say is "just as good" Lie lie and LIE. In fact there is NO MONEY IN THE DEPOSIT...

what about liability? EASY---there are subject to's , contingencies or requirements that NO ONE CAN MEET. SO they would not qualify for the loan no matter how high or low the bid is.

Example---subject to owner replace back yard landscaping and add 350000 gallon in-gound heated and enclosed swimming pool with side jacuzzi with ten year gaurantee against defects and 5 years swim pool cleaning contracts.

3) Pocket listing----hide and play shell games with the address.

Investor90, interesting to hear, but the part about filing a lien does not make sense to me as written above.

It is the contractor that did work (fake work or otherwise) which is in position to file a lien against the house/property. Are you saying they are using strawmen to file a fake mechanics lien to generate a fraudulent paper trail of non-existent upgrades that supposedly have not been paid for?

So I don't have a short one-line comment, but in this situation I demand that my realtor put in a low realistic offer. At least I know that they are working for me!

Since you claim this as an investment, can I see your securities license?

I have to say that I agree with azrob. When you guys go buy a used car, do you expect the dealer to tell you exactly what he paid for it? Or what the current market price is for that make and model?

Come on--it's not that hard. Do your research, come up with what you value the house at and bid low enough that you still have room to negotiate and remain below the number you think the house is worth. Whether there are 0 bids or 100 bids shouldn't change a thing. You bid what you think the house is worth--and no more. If you choose to raise your bid above what you think the house is worth, it's not the realtor's fault--it's YOUR fault.

In 2000 I was selling my home as a FSBO and had general interest from a few buyers. But it dragged on and I listed the home for two months with 5% added to cover the commission. The listing contract excluded all of the FSBO visitors and I notified all of them that they were excluded from the listing contract. I continued trading emails with two FSBO buyers until one of them lost one income and dropped out. Near the end of the two-month listing contract, the agent called with an offer, which was below my latest FSBO offer after his commission. He called back that same day with a full list price offer, which I accepted - it gave me several thousand more over the FSBO offer.

The FSBO buyers were willing to go higher but I took the agents offer, expecting his help in moving the deal to closing. Big mistake; he all but disappeared, leaving me to handle the buyer's home inspector visits and several other questions. But it did close at the full list price. Later I learned he had lied to his buyers, letting them believe they were competing with another agent's buyer.

In buying and selling six different homes, I have met only one truly qualified RE agent; even he was playing games but lived up to his word when pushed.
RCharles

We said "no our offer stands as is, along with its deadline" when told to submit our "best and final" because there was a competing offer for the house. They caved and we got the house--without blindly handing over another 5-10K. We assume either the other offer didn't exist or was less all along.