patrick.net

Leigh,

Apparently the military got away with itself and the Interior Ministry of Israel disagreed with the denial of entry.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/noam-chomsky-denied-entry-into-israel-and-west-bank-1.290701

"Interior Ministry spokeswoman Sabine Haddad said officials were now trying to get clearance from the Israel Defense Forces, which controls access to the West Bank to allow Chomsky to enter that territory.

"We are trying to contact the military to clear things up and if they have no objection we see no reason why he should not be allowed in," said Hadad." -quote from the article linked above.

Apparently the military in Israel is more "right wing" than many Israelis are. That sounds familiar...

I guess we have found the subject which unites Bap and Simcha.

It is obsurd to say that any media source in the US is anti-Israel. The BBC and international media are less biased and for that, they get accused of being anti-semitic (which is an incorrect use of the term given that the palestinians are also semitic) and anti-Israel. This is all complete nonsense.

Simcha, is it your opinion that the repelling-fully-armed commandos were on a diplomatic mission? You are obviously missing a rational thought process when it comes to Israel.

Israel has been using any excuse to blow its arab neighbors back into the stone age for the last 50 years. Go look at the UN voting history. The entire world, minus the US of course, agrees that Israel has committed war crimes and atrocities. Is it your premise that the entire world hates Jews? Besides, how can you justify the blockade in the first place?

I grew up going to synagogue as well. I think the failure of rational thought comes from Yisrael (the world's Jewry) being confused with the purely secular political state of Israel. It is a subtle form of brainwashing to associate loved family and friends with a government. Very powerful, while at the same time very misleading.

Bap33 says

Isreal did nothing wrong. Only crazy Arabs and Jew haters would think otherwise.

I have no idea where you are coming from, or how you can make such an insane statement. Is this what they teach you in church these days?

Yes, it's fascinating to compare two articles about the same subject. This is the article I read a couple of weeks back...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/world/middleeast/18chomsky.html

Before kids I used to read a periodical that did just that. It took a significant event and presented two articles, one from each 'side'. It was amazing to see the two different perspectives, the choice of words, facts that seemed to be glossed over or left out. Wish I could recall that periodical as I need to start reading again.

Leigh,

Thanks for illustrating my point and what I enjoy doing. I like to compare and contrast differing viewpoints in order to see which one I believe has more merit. Unlike what CBOEtrader claims I'm not brainwashed into believing that Israel has never done anything wrong. And unlike CBOEtrader I haven't forgotten that the Palestinian side has done the same war crimes and atrocities that the Israelis have done and that both sides have blood on their hands.

And I haven't blinded myself to what is good about each side either. I try not to become irrationally for one side over the other, as most do here in the Bay Area and in the world.

CBOEtrader,

Did you watch the videos? I just watched the Bay Area Evening News and even our news here that is normally quite anti-Israeli/Pro-Palestinian reported that the videos showed how these alleged "Peace Activists" attacked the soldiers immediately upon their arrival on the ship with iron clubs, deck chairs, knives, and stun grenades and guns taken from the beaten soldiers. The soldiers only asked to use lethal force when these alleged "Peace Activists" began using lethal force against the soldiers. The IDF soldiers were ordered to use their paint bullets only if things got out of hand. They had to get special permission to use lethal force. The IDF mistakenly thought that these "Peace Activists" were well, Peace Activists. They turned out to be something quite different.

If these "Peace Activists" were so concerned with getting this "humanitarian aid" to the Gaza Strip, they would have taken up the IDF's offer to allow them to disembark at Ashdod and to allow the "Peace Activists" to truck the "humanitarian aid" into the Gaza Strip.

So, what kind of "Peace Mission" uses lethal force against anyone especially when no one has attacked them? The soldiers were simply boarding the ship until they were attacked violently.

No, these "Peace Activists" had more than a few radical Bay Area Pro-Palestinian/Anti-Israeli activists aboard ship with a political point to make. They refused to refrain from running the MILITARY BLOCKADE, that complies with International Law by the way, so that they could have this conflict with the IDF. If they were more concerned with getting aid to the people of Gaza, they would have landed at Ashdod and trucked the "aid" in.

No, instead the "Peace Activists" acted like thugs with something to hide. It makes one wonder what kind of "aid" these "Peace Activists" were bringing the people of Gaza. I'm juss sayin'.

Yes, we will grieve for those noble fallen Israeli soldiers... oh, wait...

simchaland says

the videos showed how these alleged “Peace Activists” attacked the soldiers immediately upon their arrival on the ship with iron clubs, deck chairs, knives, and stun grenades and guns taken from the beaten soldiers.

No one disputes this. Though, I am confused as to your insinuation. You don't prepare to attack an army with iron clubs, deck chairs, and knives. That is what a desperate group does as a last resort, which is being boarded by fully-armed commandos.

simchaland says

The IDF soldiers were ordered to use their paint bullets only if things got out of hand.

This is just silly. If I walk up to a police officer with an AK-47, he will forcibly ask me to drop it, or he will shoot me. It doesn't matter if it was armed with paint-bullets or not. Fully-armed commandos repelling onto the ship is not a diplomatic mission. The fact that the "activists" defended themselves with deck chairs and whatever else they could find on their ships does not, in any way, make them the aggressors.

simchaland says

So, what kind of “Peace Mission” uses lethal force against anyone especially when no one has attacked them? The soldiers were simply boarding the ship until they were attacked violently.

what????????? Like, I said before, your rational thought process stops when it comes to Israel.

simchaland says

No, these “Peace Activists” had...a political point to make.

Making a political point doesn't justify a lethal force. Storming a boat in the middle of the night, while armed with machine guns does. The fact that the "activists" attacked with deck chairs is proof that they had no real weapons with them, and were only defending themselves anyway they could.

CBOEtrader says

Making a political point doesn’t justify a lethal force.

Thanks for proving my point.

If these were real Peace Activists they would have chosen to land at Ashdod, Israel in order to truck the aid to Gaza in peace. Instead they ran a MILITARY BLOCKADE after being warned many times not to do it, which is an act of war, not peace.

The USA had a similar blockade of Libya's coast and didn't allow anyone through who wasn't authorized. There were no international incidents then, I wonder why?

simchaland says

CBOEtrader says
Making a political point doesn’t justify a lethal force.
Thanks for proving my point.

??? Rational thought is dead with this one.

simchaland says

The USA had a similar blockade of Libya’s coast and didn’t allow anyone through who wasn’t authorized. There were no international incidents then, I wonder why?

I am not pretending to be an expert on the US blockade of Libya. However, I would suppose that there was no incident because the US didn't attack international ships 72 nautical miles off the coast of Libya.

Israel could have waited until the ships were obviously within the blockade zone. They then could have blocked the 4, or so, flotillas' further movement. Instead they decided to raid a ship 72 nautical miles off the coast of Israel, or 60 miles into international waters. If the flotillas' had obviously violated the blockade, the UN and the entire world wouldn't be able to condemn Israel as being no better than Somali pirates.

The IDF will do anything they like, then call the world anti-semitic when the UN calls foul. Only the US government supports the actions of the IDF. The UN was ready to release an immediate response condemning Israeli actions, but the US held up the process by 11 hours so that they could water down the statement so as to sound less harsh towards Israel. Typical pro-Israeli US bullshit.

"Full of sound and fury signifying nothing." -Shakespeare

Look we all know why these alleged "Peace Activists" were headed to run a MILITARY BLOCKADE which is an act of war. They got the expected response that they wanted in order to make Israel look bad, as usual.

The truth is that these "Peace Activists" didn't really want this "humanitarian aid" to get to Gaza or they would have complied with Israel's request to land safely at Ashdod. They wanted to score political points.

The IDF fell into the trap, as usual. That happens when you develop paranoia after 50 or more years of the world wanting to wipe you off of the face of the globe.

Look, Israel isn't 100% correct in this. And the "Peace Activists" most certainly aren't in the right in this either. Both sides are vying for international sympathies. At the moment the "Peace Activists" have the upper hand in world opinion. Their job is made easier by the world's anti-Semitic bias.

Israel has become paranoid for a reason. They should have acted more rationally allowing the boats to reach the 12 mile line. However, Israel has learned that when they allow things to develop for too long, they get burned. It doesn't excuse their lack of judgment in not waiting until the ships were actually at the line.

Again, both sides have done wrong, as is usual in this conflict.

I just get tired of the one-sided response of the UN and international community who is all too eager to get rid of Israel based on biases that defy reason.

Here's CNN for an example:
http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2&x_article=1857#cnn

And loe and behold! Weapons were found on the ships that were bringing "humanitarian aid" to Gaza.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=52&x_article=1859

I'm sure that the "Peace Activists" will respond with some version of this:

"What do you mean we have weapons, Officer? You must have planted those weapons on us."

Or

"What weapons? Those were tools and they were completely useless against the real weapons brought on board by the IDF."

@CBOEtrader

They are allowed to attack in international waters, if a blockade is known to be run. The group made a huge statement before leaving, that they were going to run it. The whole point was to create a confrontation and nothing else. Before they left, Israel said they wouldn't be let through and not to do it. They only had chairs and steel bars to fight with? that is how desperate they were? When an ak-47 costs a few dollars over there, but a boat is a fortune? Have you seen how much fuel a boat uses? It's astronomical. They did it intentionally to create a public outcry.

None of those countries around there are friends, they could help the Palestinians, but they don't. They only "help" when it's in their interest, or when they are trying to get something else. Saudi Arabia could easily give them all the food they need, but they don't. They token help so they can say they're helping, without doing anything. Same with the other countries. What do they give them? Weapons. Very little to make a new start, but tons of weapons.

The other issue is Hamas gets ahold of goods that come in and then redistributes them as it sees fit. many agencies don't even try and help now because they're donated goods are simply taken and distributed by Hamas as they see fit. Hamas keeps people intentionally poor to gain support and then gives out food as needed to win more support. They're great at politics and winning people over. They know what they are doing.

Israel could walk through those countries and obliterate them all. They aren't interested in doing that. Everyone claims they have nuclear weapons, but they haven't confirmed it, but if they do have them, they have had them for 20-30 years? They've never said they had them, never used them as deterrent, and obviously never used them. They could do whatever they wanted, but they don't. They're hoping for a political party that will form over there, that they can deal with. Hamas isn't that party, they have no intention of creating peace because they'll lose their political power then. They need someone over there who will actually fight their own people to keep the peace. If *anyone* tries to disturb the peace, they need to hunt them down and toss them in jail. How can you draw up a peace treaty saying 98% of the voted population won't fire missles at you. The 2% who do, well we're not going to stop them and we don't want you coming over here to stop them as part of the "peace" process. That isn't going to work.

While I'm not for Israel, I can see that the other side has very little intention of creating peace or trying to hold onto it. The surrounding countries don't care. Everyone in power is doing well, including Hamas leaders. Israel has some religious fanatics who want war, others who want peace. It's a mess in the end. Israel might be using a lot of heavy handed tactics, but they essentially have to, as they're just constantly being tested to see what the other side can get away with.

Funny news story I saw, that no one else around me noticed: Gaza fuel blockade. They were running out of fuel, they interviewed this guy filling his car up at the gas station and he said he was buying 300L of gas to ensure he had enough, that it was hard on his family, all the regular political stuff. #1) he has a car #2) he's able to buy 300L of gas #3) they zoomed out as the clip was ending, and it was a newer bmw.

I liked this book, it was one of his first ones, and really shows the mentality of the people. His other books, I haven't been fans of realy, but this one had some decent insight into the area. http://www.amazon.com/Beirut-Jerusalem-Thomas-L-Friedman/dp/0385413726

"Death In Gaza" was an interesting documentary. The original movie was going to be going into Gaza, filming, then into Israel and filming, but the guy producing the thing ended up getting killed in Gaza. They tried to make it look like it wasn't their fault and blamed it on Israel. However, they stayed in an active operations area, where Israel was doing an operation, even though they were all warned before hand to get out (in general announcements). When they got scared, they said ok lets get out of here! In the dark, they came out waving stuff at the military, yelling at them, in the dark, claiming they were news reporters, pointing big cameras at them and walking right at them. It's a war, not a game. It was really unfortunate, but it was people who didn't understand it was a war zone who treated it like it was a game they were filming and could quit whenever they wanted. The show was pretty good though, and I'd recommend it. It's available on netflix.

> No, these “Peace Activists” had…a political point to make.

Yes, and the point was that Isreal's blockade of Humanitarian Aid ships like this one is killing people in Gaza. That these people were willing to run a blockade at obvious great risk to themselves to make that point is some indication to some of us who think a bit more clearly of how dire the situation in Gaza is. But all that suffering doesn't seem to factor into your thinking.

> which is an act of war, not peace.

Another illegal act is also collective punishment of a civilian population.

> And loe and behold! Weapons were found on the ships

Dude. A couple of guns. Really. Your dignity is in tatters.

pkennedy says

The other issue is Hamas gets ahold of goods that come in and then redistributes them as it sees fit. many agencies don’t even try and help now because they’re donated goods are simply taken and distributed by Hamas as they see fit. Hamas keeps people intentionally poor to gain support and then gives out food as needed to win more support. They’re great at politics and winning people over. They know what they are doing.

What? You mean that Hamas is keeping the Gazans hostage in order to win international sympathy? Really? Peace loving Hamas would never do anything like that. It's not like they're a terrorist organization or anything.

Spend some time in Israel and you learn right quick just how under attack they are by neighbors on all sides. Every building in Israel, business and home, must be built with a bomb shelter. If you escort children in public, you must carry a fire arm on your person (think field trip). What we see occassionally at our airports, where some idiot crosses the security barrier and all flights are frozen, multiply it by 100 and it happens a few times a week in every major city across Israel. Soldiers with assault rifles are everywhere. Shopping malls, libraries, restaurants, office buildings...*everywhere*. I don't think most Americans can grasp what it is like to live under constant threat of attack. We think we know, but until you're in it, you don't realize just how lucky we are to be so far away from the action.

It's like an angry hornets nest over there, and these bozos want to play with the hive? It's a war zone. Any threat is taken seriously. There are no mistakes allowed. So, if these "Peace Activists" were indeed looking for peace, they certainly went about it all the wrong way. And I strongly suspect they knew that. They must have known how such an action would be viewed by the Israelis. If they didn't, they are too stupid to be carrying out any operations in the waters off Israel.

LowlySmartRenter says

If they didn’t, they are too stupid to be carrying out any operations in the waters off Israel.

I think they got exactly what they wanted. Have you seen the World reaction? I'd say it was the Israeli's that were stupid...

I'm not pro or anti-Israel, but I think some of their actions ensure that their country remains a war zone...

LowlySmartRenter,

On the tour I was on in Jordan and Egypt we were accompanied by security forces with concealed fire arms for our own safety. Driving through Jordan you are confronted with military checkpoints every few miles where there is a little shelter on the side of the road where there are guards armed with machine guns. Driving through Egypt both on the Sinai and along the Nile, and even in the desert, you have even more controlled military checkpoints where you are required to stop every few miles and answer questions that are asked by men with machine guns.

On the Sinai in Egypt we had a military escort. There was a jeep with men with machine guns that didn't leave our side.

The entire Middle East is a war zone. Security can't be guaranteed anywhere in or outside of Israel. You go at your own risk.

The Arabs and the Israelis live under constant threat of war and violence. Neither side has it really "good." It's a sad situation that unfortunately has no simple solution. That is because irrationality rules over there. There is deep-seated mistrust of anyone who is "foreign." People in the region remember their history where foreign goverments treated them as colonies and partitioned the land creating the current political nightmare that exists on the ground.

Unfortunately the meddling hasn't stopped. These "Peace Activists" meddle in their own way to try to gain sympathy for the Arab population under Israeli occupation. We Americans meddle on Israel's behalf to gain sympathy for the Israelis who are every bit as manipulative of world opinion as the Arab countries are. The rest of the world meddles in the affairs of the Middle East constantly choosing one side or the other depending on the goals of their own manipulation.

Perhaps if left alone the people who actually live in the Middle East could work things out amongst themselves. International intervention has only made things worse, and the people who live there remember this because they live with the results even today, both Israelis and Arabs.

Unless they pick up and move Israel to another part of the globe, there is nothing else they can do to get out of the war zone. Even that might not work. When there are whole nations hell bent on the destruction of Israel, would it matter if they moved to one of the poles?

Maybe in your opinion Israel looks stupid. But they don't care what you think. Or the world's opinion of them. Really, they just don't care. They are about the toughest people I've ever met. It's like a nation of Navy Seals or Green Berets.

It's about life and death to them, not how they "look". It's about survival, and they simply don't put up with any shenanigans.

@simchaland
I think you've pretty much nailed it on the head. There are also cultural differences which we simply can't understand over here as well, which the media plays into, because what we don't understand looks sureal and barbaric or looks unjust. Not just with Israel, but with almost anything that comes out of the middle east.

@LowlySmartRenter
Israel chewed into the Palestine land during the many years of war, however Egypt and all other countries jumped on the band wagon and took a piece of their land. They're just picking the fight with the group they hate the most right now. If Israel made peace with them (somehow) they would jump onto the next band wagon to get another piece of land back. The land they have now is just a small pittance of what England had assigned them before leaving that area...

LowlySmartRenter, yes that's right. Even if they moved Israel to barren islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean that no other nation claims there would be problems. Israelis would make those islands into a paradise that would produce food, create industry, and it would be a center of Jewish learning as well as secular learning. The world would get jealous and some tribe somewhere in the Pacific would claim those islands as their homeland and we would see the international community going after the "Zionist Colonizers." Only in this case the world may actually have had a point because they would be colonizing islands where Jews never existed. Today Israel is situated on land where there is at least some legitimate claim to the land even while the Arab claims are also valid. How do you continue to have a Jewish State on disputed land where people used to co-exist under foreign occupiers in relative peace? Perhaps that's Israel's first mistake, trying to create a "Jews only" country when they could have granted citizenship to everyone who lived within their borders. Oh wait, they tried that and they were invaded by 5 Arab armies, but who's counting?

Make no mistake. Jews all over the world are bent on survival. Modern Israel is a construction to ensure the continued existance of Jews in the land from which we came originally. It may not be the best solution, but it is a solution that made sense over 50 years ago in the aftermath of the murder of 6 million Jews in Europe.

Some of us Jews argue that our survival has depended on the diaspora (the spreading out of world Jewry among all nations) and that the gathering of at least 50% of world Jewry in a war zone isn't the best way to ensure that we will survive as a people and religion. However, those of us born well after the establishment of Israel and the end of the Holocaust can easily rethink decisions made over 50 years ago from the comfort of countries where we are relatively left alone like the USA. It's easy for us to criticize and condemn from afar when we are living in relative safety and comfort and we only get bits and pieces of the news from over there without living the experience of what it must be like to live as an Israeli Jew, or Israeli Arab for that matter (they do, in fact, exist).

The IDF took the bait and made some faulty decisions based on faulty intelligence. However, there is a certain logic to how they handled the incident if you can place yourself in an Israeli's shoes for a moment. There is a long history of a de facto state of war declared against Israel by all of the countries in the region and the people who live in them who aren't Israeli. If you were Israeli you would be painfully aware that the true intention of Hamas and Hezbollah is to see the destruction of your country, the deportation of the Israeli Jews from their homeland, and the killing of Israeli Jews who would resist. You are reminded of that on a daily basis by experiencing heightened security in response to terrorist bombings on your own soil, rockets that fly overhead to explode randomly all over your country, and an international indifference or even active international action against your country.

It's very easy to side with the "poor Arabs" who were displaced during the War of Independence when 5 Arab armies invaded upon the declaration of the State of Israel and who lost that war and every war since then. And you'd have to have blinders on to avoid seeing that their Arab brothers and sisters in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Saudi Arabia have purposefully excluded Palestinian Arabs from becoming citizens of their countries in order to keep them in refugee camps without adequate sewage, food, water, or opportunities to better themselves in order to gain international sympathy for the "poor Palestinian Arabs."

Each side is being cleverly manipulated by powers that come from outside as well as elements who don't want peace on the inside. Most Israelis and Arabs in Israel and Palestine simply want to live their lives to the fullest. They have no interest in demonizing each other. However, when outside forces, like Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt oppress their own Arab brothers and sisters in order to get sympathy for them by keeping them in squalor, I can understand why a Palestinian Arab living in occupied territories and refugee camps would resent Israel. What I don't understand is why the international community allows Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt to mistreat Palestinian Arabs without comment and comes down exclusively on Israel for what it does (which is wrong) in the occupied territories.

LowlySmartRenter says

When there are whole nations hell bent on the destruction of Israel, would it matter if they moved to one of the poles?

Yes. It would make an enormous difference. The arabs that state they want to wipe Israel off the map are angry that the palestinians were marched out of their homes at gunpoint. They want to return the rule of the land to some muslim authority and wipe the political entity of Israel off the map. They are not saying they want all Jews dead (well, at least not publicly). I am not saying these people aren't crazy religious zealots, or that they aren't dangerous.

The zionists could have chosen land in the middle of Utah to build their nation. They decided to choose the most coveted religious site on earth, which was already populated by people who had lived there for centuries. To gain control of the land they had to force a suspect muslim population from their homes at gunpoint--often using extreme terrorist tactics. This was an operation envisioned and operated by power hungry rich jerks, pretending to represent the world's Jewry. It had everything to do with secular greed, power, money, etc and nothing to do with the Jewish religion or even the Jewish people in general.

It is not unique now or historically for Jewish religious leaders (as opposed to secular leaders) to state that Zionism is antithetical to the purpose of Judiasm.

For instance read this statement TO THE U.N. SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON PALESTINE by Chief Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky
July 16, 1947

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/dushinskyjuly1947.cfm

He is not the only jewish religious leader who was against the formation of a Jewish state.

"It is certain as the sun shines that the Land will vomit the Zionists out, because the Land is the Palace of the King....I don't say this either to curse or to bless, but because these are things which are written in the Torah and which will take place." --The famous Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman.

Thanks Simchaland. You've given us some food for thought, instead of the usual "us and them" argument. That's another tired story. As if either side is completely innocent of any wrong doing, and as if this country never waged an illegal war for no damn good reason (well, two wars technically, maybe three if you throw in Vietnam). Imagine the U.S. giving back Utah, Colorado, and Nevada to the tribes that originally inhabited them. What kind of economy would the new nation have? And how would that work to anyone's favor?

I see Palestanians as peaceful people who just want to make a living, and they are harrassed and killed and kept from family, all because of border struggles that have nothing to do with them. The ones born in Jerusalem are now Israeli citizens, technically. But so what? To them, their citizenship papers do not bring home the bread, nor do they ensure them against terror. They are just pawns, and they know it. They don't care who "wins" really. Just agree on a border and leave it be. Must we rehash old wars and resettle old scores for eternity? At some point, we just have to live together and forget what was and deal with what is.

If the U.S. was somehow forced to give up terrority every few years to the original natives (including Mexico), how comfortable would we feel about an ever changing border? And then imagine Canada has a sworn oath to obliterate the U.S. Maybe then we could understand a smidge of the tension Israelis feel about giving up more to keep the peace. It's not so easy and clear cut as many of us would like it to be.

I can understand why Europe/Arabs/UN condemn Israel. If an Israeli soldier sneezes on an Arab, they consider it a war crime.

I'm a bit surprised Obama lashed out at Israel (albeit in a small way)...it does put fuel in the fire of those that claim Obama is anti-Israel.

But, from what I can tell, these are the sequence of events:

1. An activist group attempts to run a military blockade. They know full well what they are doing is illegal and may meet resistance from the Israeli military.

2. The Israeli military confronts the activists. Attempts to be peaceful. Is attacked more forcefully than expected. Lashes out in response.

3. People blame the Israeli military for starting the fight. WTF?

I think the one blemish on Israel is this may have occurred in international waters...but you know, it's not like this wouldn't have gone down the exact same way except a mile closer to Israel otherwise if they had waited.

@Ptipking222

People are blaming Israel for starting the fight, and whenever it's pointed out #1 and #2 above, they turn to the age old -- they're persecuting the Palestinians. It's all a mess, and really it just "helps" the Palestinians in the end.

#3 is likely to cause controversy but there is some maritime law that says you can do it in international waters to block someone from doing a blockade run. Since this group had the news going well before they even left, it's pretty obvious what their intentions where. They made them public, they stated what they were going to do, etc.

@CBOEtrader

Your quote was from a religious leader quoting something from the Torah -- which isn't really a "legitimate" reason. It's someone pointing out that god said they couldn't go back there. Not that they shouldn't for a good reason.

In the end it's just a mess.

CBOEtrader, you're reasoning would be correct if there weren't any Jews living in Israel/Palestine for millenia. Jews haven't entirely abandoned Israel/Palestine ever. There have always been Jews living there. The people who call themselves "Arabs" now come from people who have been living there for millenia too. Both peoples have legitimate claims to the land. Both peoples are being manipulated for someone else's benefit.

The local Arabs weren't thrilled about being under the thumb of the Ottoman Turks before the British Mandate. The Christian crusaders and various other governments that ruled the land before that still didn't allow local rule.

Also, that fantasy that Arabs were marched out of their homes at gunpoint falls in the face of the facts of history. Local Arabs were told by the 5 armies of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, and Syria that they should evacuate their land so that the 5 armies could drive the Jews into the sea and the land would be stained with their blood. Many of them fled the conflict to become refugees of their neighbors where their descendants haven't been allowed citizenship in their host countries. Few were actually forcibly removed from their lands, contrary to popular anti-Israel/Pro-Palestinian propaganda.

When Israel won, they didn't allow these people to return to their land. Why? Well, would you like to have neighbors who want you dead living next door to you? Think about that.

Israel/Palestine hasn't had local independent rule since before the time of the Romans and then before the Greeks. That's over 2000 years ago. They (Jew and non-Jew) have been ruled by foreign powers for over 2000 years until the British Mandate ended.

So, Jews aren't simply colonizers and the Arabs living in Israel and Palestine aren't simply colonized. They have both lived on that land continuously for thousands of years together under foreign governments.

LowlySmartRenter says

I see Palestanians as peaceful people who just want to make a living, and they are harrassed and killed and kept from family, all because of border struggles that have nothing to do with them.

That's a bit naive. They elected the Hamas as their leaders after all. If the Palestinians were predominately moderate in their views and accepted Israel as a legitimate country, they would have had peace/their own country years ago.
I used to feel sorry for the Palestinians, until I took a critical look at Arab life. There are no strong Arab democracies in the area...most of the countries are dictatorships or monarchies. In the 21st century, many developing countries have democracies, so it's more than just these countries being 'poor' (though one should question why these countries are so poor given the oil wealth).
They're a patriarchal, backwards culture that's bitter and believes they should be world power. They care more about backwards traditions than economic growth and peace.
Until this attitude goes away, there will never be a stable peace in the area, and the Arab countries (including the Palestinians) will never thrive.
Most sympathy for the Palestinians is a combination of naturally feeling sorry for the Underdog and latent anti-semitism. Few people actually care about improving the lives of the Palestinians, including themselves.

Ptipking222 says

That’s a bit naive. They elected the Hamas as their leaders after all.

Yes. The Palestinians democratically elected Hamas leaders. It makes sense. They are uneducated, desperate, and don't know who else represents their interests. A group like that is very easy to manipulate. This isn't much different than the first Israeli's electing the IDF leaders into government. The IDF was a known terrorist group before they became a legit government as well. People have to be given the freedom to elect their own jerks into office. Over time they will make better decisions, but only if they are allowed to prosper.

Israel's blockade is the best thing they could have done for Hamas. It is almost as if Israel wants Hamas in charge, so as to have an excuse to hold these people under their thumb.

simchaland says

CBOEtrader, you’re reasoning would be correct if there weren’t any Jews living in Israel/Palestine for millenia.

Of course there was a small minority of Jews who basically lived peacefully alongside their Arab neighbors in the area, by comparison to the pure vitriol we have today anyways. The first waves of europeans Jews were also accepted into the area by the native populations. As the Jewish immigrants started to grow in number, and this still small minority asserted their ambitions to govern the area as a Jewish state, the natives naturally grew upset.

simchaland says

Their job is made easier by the world’s anti-Semitic bias.

As long as you continue to play the victim card, you will fail to understand the world's point of view. Here's a hint: the world isn't anti-semetic. Ask any American you know how many jewish friends they have compared to how many muslim friends they have. I have a lot of jewish friends (and family) and only one Turkish friend, with a muslim father. At the very least, the Muslims are far more hated and isolated than the jews. The world is generally anti-Israel because of how it continually overreacts to any percieved threat. It is inhumane to bomb your neighbors into the stone age every time some angry zealot throws a maltov cocktail in your general direction.

The fact that this is only possible through US military aid as well as the US's veto power in the UN, makes us guilty as well. That is why the Arab world (and to a much lessor degree the entire world) hates us.

@sim,

absolutly excellant series of posts on this subject. While more tempered than i could ever pretend to be, you are still impressive in defending your thoughts. Cheers.

CDO said, "it is inhumane to bomb your neighbors into the stone age every time some angry zealot throws a maltov cocktail in your general direction."

Here in America you can be jailed for using the 3 letter F word to describe sodomites on a public college campus.
Here in America you can be jailed for killing a dog, chicken, rabbit, vernal fairy shrimp, smelt, ect.
Here in America you can choose to hire someone to murder a baby in the womb and not be charged, nor the doctor that actually does the murder.
Here in America you can be shot to death by the Police for holding a weapon inside your own home or on your own property.
From what moral highground can the selfdefense of Isreal against terorrist attacks be seen in a light of "must be tempered"? Screw tempered. Must survive, so must react with total destruction of the enemy. America used to work like that too. Now we have laws against speach and weapons, but sanction genocide. Aint progress neat?

Please re-read the topic heading: "Ireali military has gone too far this time ... again". Too far? There is no too far in the fight for survival. Why should Isreal look to anyone else for their blessing on how to defend themselves? That is absurd. Time to wake up folks. You are letting the leftist is media twist your thoughts - in my opinion.

Bap33 says

Please re-read the topic heading: “Ireali military has gone too far this time … again”. Too far? There is no too far in the fight for survival. Why should Isreal look to anyone else for their blessing on how to defend themselves? That is absurd. Time to wake up folks. You are letting the leftist is media twist your thoughts - in my opinion.

Yes, but how has that worked for them so far? Are they any closer to being "safe" now? Doesn't it seem like you might want to try a new tactic?

There are some cultural differences, and reasons why monarchs and not democracy thrives over there.

Power is far more influential over there than it is here. Israel needs to exert power over anyone attacking them and needs to do it in such a way that they won't try and do it again. If they come even remotely close to having an even battle, that will open up the flood gates. If they fired back one "random" missile for every one that came over to them, the other side would say "thats acceptable, lets keep it up!" If they get slapped hard, they tend to back down.

Unfortunately, the people who are firing these things aren't necessarily "related" to Hamas. They can be splinter groups, but Hamas can't say they didn't approve it, without appear weak. So they accept them and the consequences.

I thought the attack on Lebanon was outrageous, but genious at the same time. People don't take notice of conditions going from bad to worse, because it's not enough of a difference, we adapt pretty well. Even if we went from good to bad living conditions, after awhile of living in bad, going from bad to worse doesn't really change things for us. What makes people take notice is giving people 6 years to get back to good, remember what it is like, and then saying "You're not behaving, go back to START!". Sure Lebanon is PISSED, but the next time someone starts firing away, people are more likely to say "what are you doing! I'm living a good life again, stop it or they'll take it away from me again!" They will voice support but behind the scenes say stop it!

They will never become good neighbors, this just won't happen. Not for many generations, if ever. Those countries simply won't do what it takes to bring their life styles up to the jewish quality, which means they're always going to be behind them and envious. They'll keep hating them for their deeds they did, and because there is no reason to get over it. They'll hang onto them for generations unfortunately. What Israel is going for is neighbors who will give them peace because they know the alternative.

What I'm guessing is they'll try and do a Lebanon over there shortly. Allow them to have a better life, and then take it away, until Hamas is out of there. Ugh.

CBOEtrader says

Ask any American you know how many jewish friends they have compared to how many muslim friends they have. I have a lot of jewish friends (and family) and only one Turkish friend, with a muslim father...

This sounds so much like that claim made by many white people in America, "I have so many black friends." when claiming not to be racists.

Just because you are blind to the anti-Semitism that is growing in the world doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I'm tired of walking through streets in the Bay Area and being heckled for wearing my Star of David. I get blamed for all sorts of "crimes" that I haven't committed and that Israel may or may not have committed. There's an old name that applies to this, it's called "The Blood Libel."

Whenever I try to reason with people who would dare to heckle me on the street for wearing jewelry that expresses who I am I try to explain that I'm an American Jew and not an Israeli Jew. I try to explain that I don't support everything Israel does not only because they aren't always right, but because I don't live there, have never lived there, and have never set foot on Israeli sovereign territory. I've been to Egypt and Jordan but I've never been to Israel. I got to see Israel from the Jordanian side and I got to see a refugee camp where the Jordanians force the Palestinian Arabs to live in squalor.

These people are beyond reason. They equate me, an American who was born here, raised here, and continues to choose to live here because I love my country, with someone from Israel simply because I'm Jewish and they irrationally believe I must have something to do with happenings over there. I know from where this comes. The Ultra Left is all wrapped up in whom they perceive as the underdogs (the Palestinian Arabs) without remembering or learning from history why it was felt that a Jewish State was even needed in the first place. Also the Ultra Left has taken some pages out of "The Protocols of Zion" that alleges that all Jews worldwide are somehow part of a vast conspiracy to control all resources, goods, governments, etc. If this is true, I want my share. So far, I have seen nothing at synagogues, gatherings, or in my family to indicate that we have any such power at our disposal.

So, when you say that I want to hold onto the "victim role" what you don't know is that I face discrimination regularly once someone finds out that I'm Jewish here in the Bay Area. Some of these people have claimed that I'm a friend of theirs. I don't understand that "reasoning" at all.

When living in Chicago I rarely was discriminated against for being a Jew. Of course that was over ten years ago so I don't know what Jews face there anymore. All I know is that since I've lived in the Bay Area since June of 2002, I have personally experienced hate directed towards me for simply being a Jew on a regular basis.

One day I was waiting at Kaiser for a prescription and my "Jewdar" went off with a woman who was standing in line with me. She and I had a wonderful conversation. She told me that she admired my Star of David and told me that I was very brave for wearing it here. It opened up a conversation where we talked about how standing out as a Jew here in the Bay Area leaves you open to all kinds of verbal abuse and other abuse.

I never thought of myself as being particularly brave for simply wearing a Star of David since I've been wearing it every day for about the past 13 years when I had it made for me in Chicago.

Also I chose not to wear my Star of David whenever I've gone to Europe or when I went to the Middle East in February. I speak fluent French and I used to work in Paris. When I used to work in Paris, people would often strike up conversations with me while being at a cafe or at the parks. Eventually many conversations would end up with the other person saying out of the blue, "Tu sais, les juifs. Ils font tous." (You know, the Jews. They do it all.) And I would have to politely excuse myself from the conversation. This was not a rare occurance by any measure. I learned quickly to "hide" the fact that I'm Jewish.

I did go looking for the Jewish sites around Paris and found out that many of the memorials to the Jews from the City of Paris are very hidden from view. This is because the French are ashamed at having deported their Jews willingly to concentration camps during WWII but they still carry anti-Semitic beliefs to this present day. They keep these memorials well hidden so they don't get defaced and visitors to Paris are forced to search for these sites that are hidden from the regular tourist.

I most certainly wasn't going to put my life in danger in Egypt and Jordan so I left my Star of David at home in February even though I wear it almost unconsciously every day (In fact I rarely take it off because it's gold and won't tarnish in the shower and it saves me time from having to take it off and put it back on).

So, while you may think that I'm holding onto the role of "victim" and that I'm "inventing something out of nothing" I have direct experience to the contrary. I do get persecuted regularly on the streets here in Oakland, Berkeley, and San Francisco for simply being a Jew. And I get blamed for decisions that a foreign government makes that I don't even participate in (Israel) just because it is assumed that since I'm Jewish I must somehow be guilty of Israel's alleged crimes.

I found that the common folk of Egypt and Jordan were very friendly to me and somehow even without me wearing a Star of David, they knew I was Jewish. ( I look like an Eastern European Jew. It's in the genes, I guess.) I made a very good friend who consideres me a "brother" who is Egyptian of Turkish lineage. He is Muslim and had many really good and intelligent questions about Judaism and Hebrew. He's an Egyptologist and speaks, reads, and writes Ancient Egyptian. He is more fluent in French than English even though his English is good enough to publish. And of course, he grew up speaking Arabic. So, he was endlessly fascinated at how similar Hebrew words and phrases are to Ancient Egyptian especially and even Arabic. It was a great cultural exchange and we now call each other and keep in touch. He expects me to come back to visit him in Heliopolis and I expect him to come visit me in Oakland. And we're just friends. I'm gay. He's very straight with kids. And we became good friends on a trip through Egypt and Jordan. He isn't a very observant Muslim and I'm not a terribly observant Jew. Perhaps being secular and educated gave us plenty of common ground. Oh, and then there's the fact that he was educated by Jesuits and I was educated in Roman Catholic schools here.

So, there are decent people even all the way in the Middle East who get along with Jews. Why is it that I have so many issues with people in the Bay Area around my Jewishness?

Anyway, this is a long rant. To sum it up, I'm not inventing anything out of nothing and I don't consider myself a victim. I'm angry that there are anti-Semites who claim to be "Liberals" and who claim to be for "social justice" and "world peace" who scream at me when I'm walking down the street minding my own business about whatever they believe Israel is doing to the Palestinian Arabs simply because I'm Jewish. I try not to let it bother me. Something tells me it's quite normal that this would bother anyone if this were happening to them on a regular basis simply on the basis of culture/people/religion.

Try a nice come back, like "At least I'm not a racist screaming black derogatory comments at Obama!"

When they say anything, point out that they're white, and you've seen white people saying them! Then walk off.

pkennedy says

Try a nice come back, like “At least I’m not a racist screaming black derogatory comments at Obama!”
When they say anything, point out that they’re white, and you’ve seen white people saying them! Then walk off.

Unfortunately it's never quite as simple as that. Some of the people who are protesting at the Farmer's Market by the Grand Lake Theater in Oakland who are against Israel are "Liberal Jews" who don't like other Jews who are less condemning of Israel. It's kind of like the "Stockholm Syndrome" here. Even Jews can learn to become anti-Semitic and anti-Israel if bombarded with enough propaganda, anger, and emotion coming from anti-Semites and anti-Israel activists (Who I know aren't always one in the same, so don't bother mentioning that. That's why there's an "and" to separate "anti-Semitic" and "anti-Israel.") My Jewish Great Uncle was very anti-Semitic.

And, even though the protesters on both sides seem to be mostly white none of them here would ever dream of saying anything derogatory about Obama's color, race, ethnic origin, or beliefs (in public). Most people on both sides consider themselves to be "Liberal" here. Remember I'm in Oakland so your mileage may vary elsewhere.

And, I do try to take the "high road" and I don't like sinking down to their level. So in the face of irrational hate I like to counter with reasoned replies that don't conflate the situation. I'd rather make an attempt at educating them and others witnessing that there are Jews who respect that they have a right to say what they are saying, even if I don't like it, and even when it's against me. And that even in the face of hate, this Jew keeps his cool.

simchaland says

I’m tired of walking through streets in the Bay Area and being heckled for wearing my Star of David.

That does suck. The bay area must be a very different place than anywhere I have ever lived. I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood in Houston with a Jewish step-mother, step-sister and step-brother, etc. I went to Beth Israel synagogue every weekend, did all the jewish holidays with family, went to the Jewish community center after school daily, jewish summer camps and such. In Chicago I would regularly work through the Christmas holidays, and go with my Jewish roomates to the Christmas eve Jewapalooza/Matza Ball parties. My only point is that I have had extensive links to the Jewish community for my entire life, and have never heard them tell me anti-Semetic stories. I am not Jewish nor do I look Jewish, so I have never experienced the issues you are mentioning. We were all just considered a hodge-podge of white people to others, as far as I could tell.

simchaland says

I try not to let it bother me.

The movie "How Bruce Lee changed the World", quoted him as saying in regards to racism, "If I let it bother me, I wouldn't be Bruce Lee."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae70JT96-mc

I am fascinated by your story. If you feel comfortable discussing it, tell me this, do you think people have given you more shit for being Jewish than for being gay? Just curious.

CBOE said: "... look Jewish .... "

so, I just gotta know, what do you mean by that?

CBOEtrader says

I am fascinated by your story. If you feel comfortable discussing it, tell me this, do you think people have given you more shit for being Jewish than for being gay? Just curious.

It's good to hear that people in Chicago haven't succumbed to the type of Bay Area Ultra Leftist anti-Semitism or Anti-Israeli mindset.

I grew up in the Northwestern Suburbs of Chicago. My Dad was half Italian and half Polish. My Mom's Mom's family is Jewish even though many of them had tried to deny it, and that's a story unto itself. My Mom's Dad's side is half Native American and Northwest European mix. I'm quite the mutt, so why I got the curly brown hair, the nose, and other "tells" that make me look Jewish, I'll never know. Genetics is interesting...

Growing up I never really considered myself very Jewish at all since Dad wanted Catholic kids. So I was raised a Roman Catholic with Italian, Polish, and Russian/Viennese (Vienna, Austria) Jewish culture. Mom's Dad's family was and still is in the West.

We weren't considered "White" in Northwestern Suburban Chicago. If your name ended with a vowel or sounded Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, or Greek, you were not considered to be "White." If you were Roman Catholic, you most certainly were suspect too. My Dad was told after 15 years of teaching and distinction as a high school English teacher that he shouldn't even bother applying for higher positions with the school district because, as his principal told him, "Bob, your name ends with a vowel. They'll never promote you." That was in the mid to late 80's. I was a late teen by then.

Jews weren't considered "White" either. In Cicero, IL (on the border of Chicago) Jews and African Americans and Latinos weren't allowed to live there until the late 60's and even in the 70's these groups took their lives in their own hands if they moved there.

Even in the late 90's and early 2000's there were still "Dinner Clubs" and "Country Clubs" that didn't allow Jews or African Americans. One of my Jewish bosses joined a special "Supper Club" that allowed people of all races to join and that was considered a big deal in the late 90's.

So, growing up I was called a "Deigo," "WOP (Without Papers)," and "Polack," often. In fact what we call "wife beaters" (white sleeveless t-shirts) in California were called "Deigo Tees" even in ads on television when they were on sale when I was growing up in the Chicago Area. And even with all the name calling we kids thought it was "normal" because everyone had a derogatory term that they were called. Even "Anglo" white people were called WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants). Irish people were called "Micks." Latin people were "Spics" etc...

I came out when I was 24 when still living in the Northwest Suburbs of Chicago. Back then, the Suburbs were socially liberal and fiscally conservative and they voted Republican. I never had an issue being gay where I grew up. Everyone in town knew me anyway and those who liked me still liked me. Those who didn't still didn't.

However, I did work in Clarendon Hills for a few years and I was fired when the boss found out I was gay. That's in DuPage County. It's known for being fairly Fundamentalist Christian. In fact at that job I was asked, "Are you Jewish? Because we don't celebrate Jewish Holidays in this office." I was stunned. I knew that "technically" I was Jewish due to having a Jewish Mother who had a Jewish Mother and that I knew what brisket, bagels, lox, kugel, Manischewitz, Streits, and Latkes were and had eaten these things with some regularity. I just hadn't stopped being Catholic yet and I hadn't become somewhat religiously Jewish yet. So I was really freaked out by the question. And I wondered how they knew that I was "part Jewish" as I thought of myself then.

In Davenport, Iowa I had no problems being gay there. I did experience some epithets thrown my way from Christian Fundamentalists who were constantly picketing outside of Planned Parenthood locations there though. In Davenport, Iowa being Jewish was the largest non-issue ever. And they thought I was "white" because I'm quite fair even though my last name is Italian.

Then I moved here. People here perceive me as "White." And they perceive me as "straight." That really pisses me off. I hate being mistaken for straight. I've had only minor issues with being gay here and it's rare to come across someone who openly expresses their dislike of gay people here.

However, being Jewish here is a BIG DEAL. I was amazed when I first moved here the first time I was yelled at in Berkeley by a man who was selling bumper stickers and flying a Palestinian flag. He called me a "Zionist" and "Colonizer." Then he tried to tell me how "my government" and "my people" torture and kill Arabs daily and that somehow it was my fault. At first I was stunned. Then I got pissed and wasn't as sophisticated as I would have liked in my response. In fact I think I simply said some version of "F**k Y**" and walked away.

Since then I've learned to accept that these people populate the streets of Oakland, Berkeley, and San Francisco and that there is no reasoning with them. They are going to believe whatever they want to believe and nothing will change that. All I can do is act with dignity and provide educated, calm, and dignified responses if cornered and simply walk away. I feel better that way.

So, I'd have to say that here I get way more shit for being Jewish than being gay. In Chicago I got more shit for being gay, in fact I got jumped by three guys once when I was on a second date. Those guys ran off like little girls when they realized I was no "sissy." And there was that Clarendon Hills job where I got fired once the boss found out about my gayness.

So, I'd say it's a draw.

Bap33 says

CBOE said: “… look Jewish …. ”
so, I just gotta know, what do you mean by that?

6'2'', 225 lb, blue eyes, blond hair with a huge...um...personality.

simchaland says

I hate being mistaken for straight.

This line was hilarious.

Also very funny:

simchaland says

Those guys ran off like little girls when they realized I was no “sissy.”

I enjoyed the life story. You write well.

It is interesting that negative gay epithets are such a huge no-no in the bay area, yet it is ok to talk shit about Jews. Curtural norms are powerful influences.

On the trading floors in Chicago, there is nothing worse than being considered "gay" but "Jewish" is a coveted descriptive term. My first day of work, my new southside-Irish boss told me his "three Jew rule." I was told, "If you see three Jews on a trade, you should do anything you can to also be on that trade." Sounds like a joke, but he was serious.

I have also heard from my Jewish pals that there used to be signs outside of Winnetka saying "no jews or blacks allowed" IN THE FRICKEN TOWN ITSELF, not just in their clubs--but that was back in the early 70's.

CBOEtrader says

Bap33 says

CBOE said: “… look Jewish …. ”

so, I just gotta know, what do you mean by that?

6′2”, 225 lb, blue eyes, blond hair with a huge…um…personality.

LOL, so you're an Aryan poster child, eh? Actually, you just described my very first boyfriend from Morton Grove, IL perfectly, LOL! And I'm not really into blonds, so don't worry... But I digress...

CBOEtrader says

I enjoyed the life story. You write well.

Thanks, I really appreciate that.

CBOEtrader says

I have also heard from my Jewish pals that there used to be signs outside of Winnetka saying “no jews or blacks allowed” IN THE FRICKEN TOWN ITSELF, not just in their clubs–but that was back in the early 70’s.

Yes, it's true. I was just a child in the 70's but even I knew where one could and couldn't go depending on who you were and from where your ancestors came. Winnetka was traditionally for "North Shore" rich "WASPs." It's kind of weird for me to go there or Cicero now because the towns have changed so much demographically.

Helen Thomas, a well respected member of the leftist media, offers her "solution" for solving the problems in the Middle East:

http://blog.camera.org/archives/2010/06/helen_thomas_yid_get_out_of_pa.html