patrick.net

Igow, no, an increase in productivity does not prove me or anyone else wrong on the "10 people on an island" issue. Productivity can increase IF one of the islanders chooses to UNDERCONSUME (call that saving) AND chooses to be a RISK TAKER (call that being an entrepreneur) who goes out on a limb to invent a fishing net, for example. Which may fail and not increase productivity. And even if productivity increases, big, massive, parasitic, "benevolent" government leads to impoverishment and dependency anyway.

Government is no solution to economic issues because: (1) government discourages saving, (2) bureaucrats are not entrepreneurs, and (3) government has no skin in the game. A compelling argument for limited, constitutional government, wouldn't you agree? Government cannot efficiently allocate or manage resources, or anything else for that matter.

You can learn all about it - but you won't, because it would crush your liberal, progressive, socialistic world - in: "How an Economy Grows and Why it Crashes".

Honest Abe says

Government is no solution to economic issues because: (1) government discourages saving, (2) bureaucrats are not entrepreneurs, and (3) government has no skin in the game. A compelling argument for limited, constitutional government, wouldn’t you agree? Government cannot efficiently allocate or manage resources, or anything else for that matter.

100% correct.

Using your line of thinking, if productivity increases - the pie must increase. And it does. But you still miss the real problem. Its not successful people "hogging the pie". Its that 50% of the productivity of all workers goes to support government, which in turn produces - nothing. Thats the real reason poverty is increasing. Big, massive, parasitic Government is hogging the pie.

Honest Abe says

Using your line of thinking, if productivity increases - the pie must increase. And it does. But you still miss the real problem. Its not successful people “hogging the pie”. Its that 50% of the productivity of all workers goes to support government, which in turn produces - nothing.

"Productivity" is measured in GDP.

Are you suggesting that government consumes 50% of GDP ($7.5T a year)?

And you're also claiming that somehow this 7.5T just goes into a void that nothing useful comes out of? That government contracts don't employ anyone? That entitlement programs don't result in any economic activity?

Total government spending (this means everything from the federal government to every local and state government) amounts to about 40% of GDP. Note that this is *VERY DIFFERENT* from *BEING* 40% of GDP. Once you figure that out, we can talk about how you're wrong about the second part too.

Thats the real reason poverty is increasing. Big, massive, parasitic Government is hogging the pie.

The real reason that poverty is increasing is that we do a shitty job of measuring poverty. Almost half of the people below the poverty line in the US own their own home.

Fun fact: The most popular measurement of poverty is defined as having less than 60% of the median income. Using this measure, by definition, the only way to eliminate poverty would be to radically normalize income distribution.

Talking about poverty rates without defining what they measure is bullshit.

Talking about poverty rates without defining what they measure is bullshit. Then it follows that talking about money (a dollar) without defining what it measures is gotta be equally bullshit. Kevin, you seem to be a smart guy...except it seems you believe what the government says is the truth.

Think of it like this, the government and the fed have morphed into that little, stupid guy behind the curtin at the end of the movie "Wizard of Oz". Rapidly pushing and pulling levers, making thunder, creating distractions in an attempt to scare, confuse and control the people. You haven't learned to listen to what government says and reverse it 180 degrees...because now you're closer to the truth. You haven't learned that government is not your friend. You haven't learned that thruout history government has to ability to become abusive. You haven't learned that "White man (replace with the word POLITICIAN) speaks with forked tongue". You haven't learned that the nine scariest words in the english language are "I'm from the government and I'm here to help". You haven't learned that government is THE MOST INEFFICIENT way to manage anything ( a race horce designed by a committee [or government] would turn out to be a camel. Big government is not the answer, its the problem. You haven't learned to take what government says "with a grain of salt". You haven't learned to read between the lies.

In other words your basis of evaluation is backwards because many of the premises you believe and learned are backwards. Shadow statistics, cooking the books, lies, deciet, inflation, stealing the value from our currency, special favors, manipulating everything and everyone, empire building, accusing others, engaging in class warfare, gender warfare, sexual identity warfare, politicising everything under the sun, pointing the finger...this from both parties. But apparently you haven't noticed any of that.

What would be the best fix for the country, and its citizens? Returning to a limited, constitutional government. End of line.

tatupu70 says

When you use a computer to replace clerical workers, someone has to make the motherboard, the keyboards, the monitor, etc. as well as create the software.

I think I asked this question before but I'll ask it again. Please name the USA company that is manufacturing computers, motherboards, keyboards and monitors here in the USA.

RayAmerica says

I think I asked this question before but I’ll ask it again. Please name the USA company that is manufacturing computers, motherboards, keyboards and monitors here in the USA.

Not sure why I'm answering your question when you still haven't answered my simple question from yesterday...

In any event, where the computers, motherboards, keyboards, etc. are manufactured is a completely different topic. If you want to discuss why jobs have left the US, start a new thread...

You made the point about the jobs that were "created" in order to make the computers, motherboards, etc. .... not me. It is a valid point as to WHERE they are made, because the technology that is being created is designed to replace man-hours via increased productivity. That translates into job losses for American workers, so of course it matters a great deal as to where these products are manufactured. It also destroys your analogy that increased technology is basically a lateral move when it comes to jobs.

Dear Duck Dude:

I answered the question. It's really not my problem if you have problems with comprehension.

RayAmerica says

That translates into job losses for American workers, so of course it matters a great deal as to where these products are manufactured. It also destroys your analogy that increased technology is basically a lateral move when it comes to jobs

The job losses that occur because companies move jobs overseas have nothing to do with productivity. In fact, higher productivity keeps jobs in the States.

tatupu70 says

The job losses that occur because companies move jobs overseas have nothing to do with productivity.

Why are you suddenly changing the subject (I can only guess LOL)? We were disgussing the relationship with technology and job losses here in America. By the way, do you have that list of companies that manufacture computers, motherboards, keyboards and monitors here in the good old USA?

Dear Duck:

I already provided my answer so there's no reason to elaborate further. But while we're having this nice little chat, do you think the good old USSR was a valid experiment in "sharing the wealth?" If not, how would you go about getting rid of this evil, diabolical "massive wealth disparity" that you and other poor liberals seem to be suffering under?

RayAmerica says

Why are you suddenly changing the subject (I can only guess LOL)? We were disgussing the relationship with technology and job losses here in America. By the way, do you have that list of companies that manufacture computers, motherboards, keyboards and monitors here in the good old USA?

Ray--you keep changing the subject so fast I can't hardly keep up. The subject was how productivity increases don't necessarily cause job losses. Then you tried to change it to discuss job losses in the US. Now you want to talk about technology? Please, try to stay on topic...

Massive wealth disparity is caused by government over-regulation and excessive intervention which puts up numerous hurdles and road blocks to competition. A simple example is trying to get a taxi cab license in NY. Or all of the red tape and government regulation necessary to open a store and employ people.

We've all heard of the junk lawsuits, caused by laws (or loopholes). A $3 Million dollar "wrongful termination" lawsuit when an employee left her job, didn't return [job abandonment] and later said she had a medical release that she sent to her company (which never arrived). Or the dry cleaning establishment sued for $1 Million dollars over a pair of lost pants. I once heard a man say "the happiest day of my life is when I sold my business and didn't have any employees any longer".

And then there is the oppressive "progressive" commie tax scheme here in America. And you people wonder why, and complain that jobs go offshore? Thats because you have manipulation, domination and control in every cell of your body. I'm sorry for the damage you suffered somewhere in your past that has surfaced in you as an adult. Somehow freedom, personal responsibility and independence doesn't resonate with you.

Is that the question now? I was afraid to answer it because I figured it would change in a few minutes.

The answer is no. Perhaps some of the SV workers that read the board would know that... I don't.

Like I said--it's completely immaterial to the discussion at hand.

tatupu70 says

Like I said–it’s completely immaterial to the discussion at hand.

Like I said-thanks in advance for the non answer. LOL!!

RayAmerica says

Like I said-thanks in advance for the non answer. LOL!!

tatupu70 says

The answer is no.

Not sure how much more clear that can be...

Honest Abe says

Massive wealth disparity is caused by government over-regulation and excessive intervention which puts up numerous hurdles and road blocks to competition.

So in your world, the game of Monoply always ends how?

Honest Abe says

Talking about poverty rates without defining what they measure is bullshit. Then it follows that talking about money (a dollar) without defining what it measures is gotta be equally bullshit.

No, those are completely unrelated things. A dollar *IS* whatever the government says it is, since it's the government that has the authority to regulate its value. It's in the fucking constitution.

Honest Abe says

a giant pile of rambling bullshit

You have no idea what I believe or don't believe.

RayAmerica says

tatupu70 says

When you use a computer to replace clerical workers, someone has to make the motherboard, the keyboards, the monitor, etc. as well as create the software.

I think I asked this question before but I’ll ask it again. Please name the USA company that is manufacturing computers, motherboards, keyboards and monitors here in the USA.

There aren't any (at least not the mass market types).

And yet, more people are employed by the creation of that technology in the US than were employed by what it replaces.

Why?

Because of all of the software engineers, product managers, designers, and other white-collar workers that design the computer hardware and write the software that runs on it.

People like me are wealthy because of technology, but I've never assembled computers for anything other than personal use.

Honest Abe says

And you people wonder why, and complain that jobs go offshore?

Are you fucking kidding me? All of the supposed jobs that have gone offshore have gone to CHINA. Do you really, seriously, even for a fucking second want to pretend that CHINA has a less regulated environment for conducting business than the US?

I mean, shit.

Jobs have gone to China because labor is cheaper there, and we threw away our system of limited trade in favor of letting anything go. As a result, the extremely regulated, mostly government-owned factories of China are able to employ slave labor to make things for wages that Americans couldn't possibly live on.

Claiming that it has something to do with tax policy is almost insulting.

Kevin says "a dollar is whatever the government says it is". OK - so what does the government say it is ? To say what it is, one must describe it in detail, or in other words define it. Once again, what is the definition a dollar??

A pound is defined as 16 ounces.
A gallon is "a liquid measure of capacity that by the US standard contains 231 cubic inches".
A foot is 12 inches.

A "dollar" is dishonest, fiat currency because it has no definition. When money was honest, it could be described by the number of grains or ounces of silver or gold.

Try building a high-rise building or an airliner without a uniformly recognized, exact definition of "a foot". It can't be done. And if you can't understand that simple concept you'll never understand why an abusive regulatory business environment along with a predatory tax structure cause business owners to seek shelter somewhere else.

Why not go back to your etch-a-sketch...or start educating yourself. Try "Economics in one Lesson" to begin with.

Honest Abe says

A “dollar” is dishonest, fiat currency because it has no definition. When money was honest, it could be described by the number of grains or ounces of silver or gold.

Let's go back to paying for houses with bags of silver & gold. When we need to make change we'll cut larger coins into pieces. That'll be totally retro-cool!

Kevin says

employ slave labor to make things for wages that Americans couldn’t possibly live on

I could live on $300/mo. No prob. $10 a day is plenty for food. Not sure where I'd sleep tho. Oh. I could pull 3 shifts a day. Problem solved!

What most feeble minded individuals (Dear Liberals: please don't take this personal) can't quite understand is that the big run-up in gold & silver prices is directly linked to the lack of confidence in the free for all printing of fiat money. The internet has educated an awful lot of investors that are learning more and more that our fiat money system is nothing other than a “promise to pay a promise based on a promise.” That is exactly what a Federal Reserve Note is.

Vincinte, would it be too much for your mind to imagine an honest money system, of paper money, BACKED by gold and silver. You know, the way it was in 1964 and earlier. And Wiki states that the word's "silver" and "money" are interchangeable in 17 languages around the world.

PS your silly post at 1:05 above kinda makes you sound stupid - sorry.

Troy says

Kevin says

employ slave labor to make things for wages that Americans couldn’t possibly live on

I could live on $300/mo. No prob. $10 a day is plenty for food. Not sure where I’d sleep tho. Oh. I could pull 3 shifts a day. Problem solved!

The average factory worker is making about $60-$100 a month.

Very, very few people can live on that in the US.

You'll be poking a stick in a hornet's nest of bankers. Who want things EXACTLY how they are now.

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."
- Mayer Amschel Rothschild

All political groups are ultimately subverted by the power of the bankers.

“The lessons of history … show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual and moral disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole out relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit.”

FDR "State of the Union Address 1935"

Honest Abe says

“The land of forced, equal results by bitter, jealous, control freeks who want to level the playing field and spread the wealth”.

That's catchy. I'm going to start using it.

Honest Abe says

Your solution to Americas problems seem to be: punish the successful, reward the unsuccessful, and eliminate the concept of equal opportunity for all. If I’m mistaken, please correct me

You are mistaken.

Honest Abe says

And, by the way, I’ve asked you lib’s numerous times to define a dollar

I've seen it defined many times here. You must not be looking very hard... In reality, I think you've seen the answers, but just didn't like them...

Tatupu - You're going to start using my catchy phrase? You have my approval (although you really don't need it).

On my second point you say I'm mistaken. How so ?

And as for the definition of a dollar, it's not been defined, ever, on this site. Thats because it has no definition. Well, other than this juvenile, make believe definition: "A dollar is 100 cents. And a cent is 1/100 of a dollar". Only a child would believe that is the true definition of a dollar.

The dollar is a fiat currency - its whatever the King says it is. It constantly changes in "value" based on how irresponsible the government is acting at the time.

Imagine what our society would be like if a mile didn't have a uniform and constant value, or definition? Or what if a gallon had a constantly changing value? Or what if a foot didn't have a precise and uniform definition? Society would be in chaos.

Well, thats exactly why our economy is in chaos - our currency does not have a constant and uniform value. I'll repeat myself, America can never have a sound economy until we have a sound currency.

Ayn Rand had a long soliloquy about what money is in Atlas Shrugged. It's been a while, but I don't recall it being simply ounces of some metal.

Honest Abe says

And as for the definition of a dollar, it’s not been defined, ever, on this site.

I'm fairly certain Nomo has defined it several times. It is a medium of exchange.

Honest Abe says

our currency does not have a constant and uniform value.

No matter what you do, it will never have a constant or uniform value. That's a ridiculous concept. Constant versus what exactly? Should it always buy the same number of ears of corn? What happens when there is a bumper crop? Do you adjust the money supply to keep the value of the dollar versus corn the same? What happens when productivity advances--do you adjust the dollar again to offset those advances?

And why do you even want a strong dollar? So you can travel abroad cheaply? If you want jobs to return to the States, you should be pining for a weak dollar. There's a reason why China and Japan constantly fight to keep their currencies weak. They don't want a strong currency because it would make their companies less competitive in the global marketplace...

Pleaset promise me that you'll think before your next post.

You ask too much.

Why is it when I read comments from you "intellectual" libs the phrase: "Willful and Deliberate Ignorance" comes to mind. Attempting to have an intelligent conversation with you people is virtually impossible. What, you just don't get it? You constantly duck and dodge the point. Whats your problem?

Oh wait, I know - the lot of you, YOUR KIND, is afflicted with psychopathology. Thats the only possible explanation. And its a very real explanation.

As I said, you ask too much. We've seen this movie. At the moment when he really stands to learn something (if he were a real person, which he probably isn't) he spouts off the usual.

Instead of "good point, you really having me thinking here," it's some tired bs about how we are brain damaged. Which is, I have to admit, fascinating.

Honest Abe says

“Willful and Deliberate Ignorance”

Right. Got it. And about the corporations, and the super rich, you say....?

Why is it that if you met some moron on the street spouting nonsense, you wouldn't even be willing to talk to him, and yet Abe repeatedly over and over gets a response from one of us ?

Just say yes to the ignore button. There are a lot of real people who actually have something to say here.

NOmO - you duck and dodge my question, yet you want ME to prove you wrong? You schmuck, a dollar is not a unit of measurement? You said that. Then tell me, how do you know when you have, oh, I don't know, $75?? Seventy five is not a unit of measurement??? Seventy five dollars is not a unit of measurement? How do you know when you have 75 of them? 75 dollars today is different from 75 dollars tomorrow? And YOU want to be taken seriously?

The whole point, which you intensly avoid, is that a "medium of exchange" without a precise value is dishonest. It's dishonest, whether you choose to admit it or not. Maybe your brain damage won't allow you to comprehend such a difficult concept.

Honest Abe says

NOmO - you duck and dodge my question, yet you want ME to prove you wrong? You schmuck, a dollar is not a unit of measurement? You said that. Then tell me, how do you know when you have, oh, I don’t know, $75?? Seventy five is not a unit of measurement??? Seventy five dollars is not a unit of measurement? How do you know when you have 75 of them? 75 dollars today is different from 75 dollars tomorrow? And YOU want to be taken seriously?

A dollar is a unit of measurement, but there is no fundamental requirement that a unit of measurement be fixed in size, merely that it be uniform in size (again, basic mathematics).

You know that you have 75 dollars because the quantity of dollars that you have is equal to 75. That can be 75 one dollar bills, a fifty a twenty and a five, and many other combinations.

Of course 75 dollars today is the same as 75 dollars tomorrow. What people are willing to exchange for 75 dollars might change over time, though, just as people will change what they're willing to exchange for anything.

Just like every other thing that we exchange. What is the value of a stereo? What is the value of a television? What is the value of an apple?

That's right -- they're whatever "the market" decides.

This is also true of the dollar, and pretty much all other world currencies, and it has ALWAYS been true of ALL currencies.

What is a dollar? It's the currency of the united states of america. It does not need any other definition. To suggest otherwise is to betray an utter ignorance of how economies function.

Honest Abe says

The whole point, which you intensly avoid, is that a “medium of exchange” without a precise value is dishonest. It’s dishonest, whether you choose to admit it or not. Maybe your brain damage won’t allow you to comprehend such a difficult concept.

By this reasoning, ALL commerce is dishonest unless we are using price fixing. Why are you advocating price fixing? You know who did that? That's right -- socialists.

Try taking a few inches down to the local grocery store and exchanging them for some bread and milk and see how that works out.

Likely in arrest, arraignment and jail time followed by sexual predator status for life. Bread and milk, however, will likely be forthcoming somewhere in all of that, so not all is lost.

Our government has set itself above the law and above accountability. Big, intrusive, regulatory government steals time, assets and the lives through corruption, fraud, mismanagement, waste and taxes.

Governmnet has conveniently exempted itself from the discipline of profit and loss, has accumulated trillions in national debt and then argues it can spend the peoples money better than they can, and then proceed to squander and waste it.

The lib's hatred of America has caused relentless attacks on the foundations and the principals which personal freedom and social order rest.

All the while, libs relentlessy work to destroy the dollar, ignore the constitution, create oppressive laws, rules, regulations and taxes which destroy jobs and even industries, trash freedom and liberty and pretend to "help the downtrodden". With friends like that America doesn't need any enemies.

Honest Abe says

All the while, libs relentlessy work to destroy the dollar, ignore the constitution, create ....

We hate it when you don't give Libs proper credit for ALL our hard work, you left out:

- Giving AIDS to your sons
- Knocking up your daughters
- Stealing Republican babies and using them in Satanic rituals

Give credit where it's due, or else.