patrick.net

Honest Abe says

Talking about poverty rates without defining what they measure is bullshit. Then it follows that talking about money (a dollar) without defining what it measures is gotta be equally bullshit.

No, those are completely unrelated things. A dollar *IS* whatever the government says it is, since it's the government that has the authority to regulate its value. It's in the fucking constitution.

Honest Abe says

a giant pile of rambling bullshit

You have no idea what I believe or don't believe.

RayAmerica says

tatupu70 says

When you use a computer to replace clerical workers, someone has to make the motherboard, the keyboards, the monitor, etc. as well as create the software.

I think I asked this question before but I’ll ask it again. Please name the USA company that is manufacturing computers, motherboards, keyboards and monitors here in the USA.

There aren't any (at least not the mass market types).

And yet, more people are employed by the creation of that technology in the US than were employed by what it replaces.

Why?

Because of all of the software engineers, product managers, designers, and other white-collar workers that design the computer hardware and write the software that runs on it.

People like me are wealthy because of technology, but I've never assembled computers for anything other than personal use.

Honest Abe says

And you people wonder why, and complain that jobs go offshore?

Are you fucking kidding me? All of the supposed jobs that have gone offshore have gone to CHINA. Do you really, seriously, even for a fucking second want to pretend that CHINA has a less regulated environment for conducting business than the US?

I mean, shit.

Jobs have gone to China because labor is cheaper there, and we threw away our system of limited trade in favor of letting anything go. As a result, the extremely regulated, mostly government-owned factories of China are able to employ slave labor to make things for wages that Americans couldn't possibly live on.

Claiming that it has something to do with tax policy is almost insulting.

Kevin says "a dollar is whatever the government says it is". OK - so what does the government say it is ? To say what it is, one must describe it in detail, or in other words define it. Once again, what is the definition a dollar??

A pound is defined as 16 ounces.
A gallon is "a liquid measure of capacity that by the US standard contains 231 cubic inches".
A foot is 12 inches.

A "dollar" is dishonest, fiat currency because it has no definition. When money was honest, it could be described by the number of grains or ounces of silver or gold.

Try building a high-rise building or an airliner without a uniformly recognized, exact definition of "a foot". It can't be done. And if you can't understand that simple concept you'll never understand why an abusive regulatory business environment along with a predatory tax structure cause business owners to seek shelter somewhere else.

Why not go back to your etch-a-sketch...or start educating yourself. Try "Economics in one Lesson" to begin with.

Honest Abe says

A “dollar” is dishonest, fiat currency because it has no definition. When money was honest, it could be described by the number of grains or ounces of silver or gold.

Let's go back to paying for houses with bags of silver & gold. When we need to make change we'll cut larger coins into pieces. That'll be totally retro-cool!

Kevin says

employ slave labor to make things for wages that Americans couldn’t possibly live on

I could live on $300/mo. No prob. $10 a day is plenty for food. Not sure where I'd sleep tho. Oh. I could pull 3 shifts a day. Problem solved!

What most feeble minded individuals (Dear Liberals: please don't take this personal) can't quite understand is that the big run-up in gold & silver prices is directly linked to the lack of confidence in the free for all printing of fiat money. The internet has educated an awful lot of investors that are learning more and more that our fiat money system is nothing other than a “promise to pay a promise based on a promise.” That is exactly what a Federal Reserve Note is.

Vincinte, would it be too much for your mind to imagine an honest money system, of paper money, BACKED by gold and silver. You know, the way it was in 1964 and earlier. And Wiki states that the word's "silver" and "money" are interchangeable in 17 languages around the world.

PS your silly post at 1:05 above kinda makes you sound stupid - sorry.

Troy says

Kevin says

employ slave labor to make things for wages that Americans couldn’t possibly live on

I could live on $300/mo. No prob. $10 a day is plenty for food. Not sure where I’d sleep tho. Oh. I could pull 3 shifts a day. Problem solved!

The average factory worker is making about $60-$100 a month.

Very, very few people can live on that in the US.

You'll be poking a stick in a hornet's nest of bankers. Who want things EXACTLY how they are now.

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."
- Mayer Amschel Rothschild

All political groups are ultimately subverted by the power of the bankers.

“The lessons of history … show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual and moral disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole out relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit.”

FDR "State of the Union Address 1935"

Honest Abe says

“The land of forced, equal results by bitter, jealous, control freeks who want to level the playing field and spread the wealth”.

That's catchy. I'm going to start using it.

Honest Abe says

Your solution to Americas problems seem to be: punish the successful, reward the unsuccessful, and eliminate the concept of equal opportunity for all. If I’m mistaken, please correct me

You are mistaken.

Honest Abe says

And, by the way, I’ve asked you lib’s numerous times to define a dollar

I've seen it defined many times here. You must not be looking very hard... In reality, I think you've seen the answers, but just didn't like them...

Tatupu - You're going to start using my catchy phrase? You have my approval (although you really don't need it).

On my second point you say I'm mistaken. How so ?

And as for the definition of a dollar, it's not been defined, ever, on this site. Thats because it has no definition. Well, other than this juvenile, make believe definition: "A dollar is 100 cents. And a cent is 1/100 of a dollar". Only a child would believe that is the true definition of a dollar.

The dollar is a fiat currency - its whatever the King says it is. It constantly changes in "value" based on how irresponsible the government is acting at the time.

Imagine what our society would be like if a mile didn't have a uniform and constant value, or definition? Or what if a gallon had a constantly changing value? Or what if a foot didn't have a precise and uniform definition? Society would be in chaos.

Well, thats exactly why our economy is in chaos - our currency does not have a constant and uniform value. I'll repeat myself, America can never have a sound economy until we have a sound currency.

Ayn Rand had a long soliloquy about what money is in Atlas Shrugged. It's been a while, but I don't recall it being simply ounces of some metal.

Honest Abe says

And as for the definition of a dollar, it’s not been defined, ever, on this site.

I'm fairly certain Nomo has defined it several times. It is a medium of exchange.

Honest Abe says

our currency does not have a constant and uniform value.

No matter what you do, it will never have a constant or uniform value. That's a ridiculous concept. Constant versus what exactly? Should it always buy the same number of ears of corn? What happens when there is a bumper crop? Do you adjust the money supply to keep the value of the dollar versus corn the same? What happens when productivity advances--do you adjust the dollar again to offset those advances?

And why do you even want a strong dollar? So you can travel abroad cheaply? If you want jobs to return to the States, you should be pining for a weak dollar. There's a reason why China and Japan constantly fight to keep their currencies weak. They don't want a strong currency because it would make their companies less competitive in the global marketplace...

Pleaset promise me that you'll think before your next post.

You ask too much.

Why is it when I read comments from you "intellectual" libs the phrase: "Willful and Deliberate Ignorance" comes to mind. Attempting to have an intelligent conversation with you people is virtually impossible. What, you just don't get it? You constantly duck and dodge the point. Whats your problem?

Oh wait, I know - the lot of you, YOUR KIND, is afflicted with psychopathology. Thats the only possible explanation. And its a very real explanation.

As I said, you ask too much. We've seen this movie. At the moment when he really stands to learn something (if he were a real person, which he probably isn't) he spouts off the usual.

Instead of "good point, you really having me thinking here," it's some tired bs about how we are brain damaged. Which is, I have to admit, fascinating.

Honest Abe says

“Willful and Deliberate Ignorance”

Right. Got it. And about the corporations, and the super rich, you say....?

Why is it that if you met some moron on the street spouting nonsense, you wouldn't even be willing to talk to him, and yet Abe repeatedly over and over gets a response from one of us ?

Just say yes to the ignore button. There are a lot of real people who actually have something to say here.

NOmO - you duck and dodge my question, yet you want ME to prove you wrong? You schmuck, a dollar is not a unit of measurement? You said that. Then tell me, how do you know when you have, oh, I don't know, $75?? Seventy five is not a unit of measurement??? Seventy five dollars is not a unit of measurement? How do you know when you have 75 of them? 75 dollars today is different from 75 dollars tomorrow? And YOU want to be taken seriously?

The whole point, which you intensly avoid, is that a "medium of exchange" without a precise value is dishonest. It's dishonest, whether you choose to admit it or not. Maybe your brain damage won't allow you to comprehend such a difficult concept.

Honest Abe says

NOmO - you duck and dodge my question, yet you want ME to prove you wrong? You schmuck, a dollar is not a unit of measurement? You said that. Then tell me, how do you know when you have, oh, I don’t know, $75?? Seventy five is not a unit of measurement??? Seventy five dollars is not a unit of measurement? How do you know when you have 75 of them? 75 dollars today is different from 75 dollars tomorrow? And YOU want to be taken seriously?

A dollar is a unit of measurement, but there is no fundamental requirement that a unit of measurement be fixed in size, merely that it be uniform in size (again, basic mathematics).

You know that you have 75 dollars because the quantity of dollars that you have is equal to 75. That can be 75 one dollar bills, a fifty a twenty and a five, and many other combinations.

Of course 75 dollars today is the same as 75 dollars tomorrow. What people are willing to exchange for 75 dollars might change over time, though, just as people will change what they're willing to exchange for anything.

Just like every other thing that we exchange. What is the value of a stereo? What is the value of a television? What is the value of an apple?

That's right -- they're whatever "the market" decides.

This is also true of the dollar, and pretty much all other world currencies, and it has ALWAYS been true of ALL currencies.

What is a dollar? It's the currency of the united states of america. It does not need any other definition. To suggest otherwise is to betray an utter ignorance of how economies function.

Honest Abe says

The whole point, which you intensly avoid, is that a “medium of exchange” without a precise value is dishonest. It’s dishonest, whether you choose to admit it or not. Maybe your brain damage won’t allow you to comprehend such a difficult concept.

By this reasoning, ALL commerce is dishonest unless we are using price fixing. Why are you advocating price fixing? You know who did that? That's right -- socialists.

Try taking a few inches down to the local grocery store and exchanging them for some bread and milk and see how that works out.

Likely in arrest, arraignment and jail time followed by sexual predator status for life. Bread and milk, however, will likely be forthcoming somewhere in all of that, so not all is lost.

Our government has set itself above the law and above accountability. Big, intrusive, regulatory government steals time, assets and the lives through corruption, fraud, mismanagement, waste and taxes.

Governmnet has conveniently exempted itself from the discipline of profit and loss, has accumulated trillions in national debt and then argues it can spend the peoples money better than they can, and then proceed to squander and waste it.

The lib's hatred of America has caused relentless attacks on the foundations and the principals which personal freedom and social order rest.

All the while, libs relentlessy work to destroy the dollar, ignore the constitution, create oppressive laws, rules, regulations and taxes which destroy jobs and even industries, trash freedom and liberty and pretend to "help the downtrodden". With friends like that America doesn't need any enemies.

Honest Abe says

All the while, libs relentlessy work to destroy the dollar, ignore the constitution, create ....

We hate it when you don't give Libs proper credit for ALL our hard work, you left out:

- Giving AIDS to your sons
- Knocking up your daughters
- Stealing Republican babies and using them in Satanic rituals

Give credit where it's due, or else.

Our government has set itself above the law and above accountability.

With you so far...

Big, intrusive, regulatory government steals time, assets and the lives through corruption, fraud, mismanagement, waste and taxes.

This is where you start down a slippery slope. It's quite bizarre how this anti-regulation rhetoric has caught on with the man-in-the-street. It's really just hedge-fund asshole cypher for: let me speculate in the markets and devise means of drawing every last ounce of blood from this casino without a bunch of interference from Big Brother! I would proffer that we need more lean and much more effective regulation than what we presently have, but if your idea of free markets is a free-for-all, you're only arguing for the further diminution of the working class in America.

Governmnet has conveniently exempted itself from the discipline of profit and loss, has accumulated trillions in national debt and then argues it can spend the peoples money better than they can, and then proceed to squander and waste it.

That has a whole helluva lot more to do with our foreign policy, our drug wars, DARPA and our military industrial complex in general than it does with any social policies. Go dig up some pie charts. It is remarkable.

The lib’s hatred of America has caused relentless attacks on the foundations and the principals which personal freedom and social order rest.

Very hokey stuff. You're tilting at windmills. I get the sense that you feel screwed over, (get in line), and in order to lend that feeling a more palpable sense, you've created (or someone has created for you) a readily digestible target at which you can focus all of your bile. Forget this cheap distraction; forget libs v conservatives! Your contempt would be much better served against the subversive encroachment of corporate interests and of Wall St. or even the international conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. To be sure, you're getting it over the barrel, Abe, and you're right to be pissed; but you need to seriously take the time to adjust the rear view mirror so you can get a better look at your assailant.

Honest Abe says

Our government has set itself above the law and above accountability. Big, intrusive, regulatory government steals time, assets and the lives through corruption, fraud, mismanagement, waste and taxes.
Governmnet has conveniently exempted itself from the discipline of profit and loss, has accumulated trillions in national debt and then argues it can spend the peoples money better than they can, and then proceed to squander and waste it.
The lib’s hatred of America has caused relentless attacks on the foundations and the principals which personal freedom and social order rest.
All the while, libs relentlessy work to destroy the dollar, ignore the constitution, create oppressive laws, rules, regulations and taxes which destroy jobs and even industries, trash freedom and liberty and pretend to “help the downtrodden”. With friends like that America doesn’t need any enemies.

You need help.

Honest Abe says
our currency does not have a constant and uniform value.

List of countries with a constant and uniform currency value:

Kevin, Your psychopathological mind cannot distinguish reality from fiction. The damage you suffered as a child is now negatively affecting you as an adolescent. Its a common affliction amongst liberals, and clinically documented. Go ahead and show us how smart you are, swear a bunch more and reveal your true intellect.

And Troy, no country in the world has a constant and unifrom currency value. And thats precisely why the economic conditions of nations around the world are in chaos. However, that may be too simple of a concept for a liberal to understand, given the fact that liberals have no concept, what-so-ever, of cause and effect.

All you so called "intellectual" lib's should lookup and read the "Communist Manifesto". That will reveal how far America has slid toward communism, although you will adamatly deny it. Communism and socialism is great news for you lib's and the president, not good news for the rest of America.

Honest Abe says

And Troy, no country in the world has a constant and unifrom currency value. And thats precisely why the economic conditions of nations around the world are in chaos. However, that may be too simple of a concept for a liberal to understand, given the fact that liberals have no concept, what-so-ever, of cause and effect.

No country in the history of the planet has had a constant and uniform currency value. No country ever will. Do you have ANY sort of point to all this?

E vast majority of countries around the world are not in chaos. You need help.

Honest Abe says

However, that may be too simple of a concept for a liberal to understand, given the fact that liberals have no concept, what-so-ever, of cause and effect

The Great Depression occurred when all states had "constant and uniform currency values". The sooner a country started printing the sooner its economy recovered. So much for your theories.

Economics is not so simple as you think it is -- this is a multivariate world. From what I've seen, there are two causes of instability -- consumer debt (debt taken on to consume and not produce) and the pernicious effects of the land monopoly. When these intersect as land speculation, it's boom/bust city.

Communism and socialism is great news for you lib’s and the president, not good news for the rest of America.

"The American People will take Socialism, but they won't take the label. I certainly proved it in the case of EPIC. Running on the Socialist ticket I got 60,000 votes, and running on the slogan to 'End Poverty in California' I got 879,000. I think we simply have to recognize the fact that our enemies have succeeded in spreading the Big Lie. There is no use attacking it by a front attack, it is much better to out-flank them." -- Upton Sinclair, 1951

I think Dishonest Abe here is just being a propaganda mouth for whatever reasons -- Aspergers, Outer Party echo-chamber immersion, amateur or paid attempts at being an Inner Party crimethink stopper -- impossible to tell over the internet.

One thing though, George Orwell had the Right's number back in 1948 . . . Inner Party, Outer Party, and Proles. O'Donnell polling 40% shows how far this country is around the bend. With ~40% of the country committed to utter lunacy, the Right's electoral power is a tough nut to crack -- the Reps only need 1 out of 6 of the remainder to form a majority.

I think it's reasonably obvious that the billions of dollars gone into the constellation of right wing propaganda mills -- AEI, Heritage Foundation, AIM, Federalist Society, Hudson Institution, Hoover Institution, Cato have had their desired effect.

Lewis Lapham ran it down well enough here:

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Republican-Propaganda1sep04.htm

As Mitch McConnell said recently, the Republican Congress coming back into power next January is going to have its main mission of torpedoing the Obama presidency (not that this is any different from the current "Party of No" position).

I am not sanguine about the follow on effects of this.

Need to get my Mandarin up a level. America's race has just about been run.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/29/opinion/29krugman.html

^ I could have written that

"No, we can’t. This is going to be terrible. In fact, future historians will probably look back at the 2010 election as a catastrophe for America, one that condemned the nation to years of political chaos and economic weakness. "

GHASP! I wonder what will the republicans do??? OMFG! Will they boast that they have a Filibuster proof Senate and Congress?

They will work on bringing down Obama? You mean like the Democrats really worked on bringing down Bush and his asinine policies in 06? Well good luck with that.

I see all you intellectuals have intentionally ignored my challenge to read the communist manifesto to see how far we as a country have slid into communsim. Well, even if you did, all of you would put your liberal spin on it to explain it away, or even worse, justify it.

How can we denounce communism and practice it at the same time...schizophrenia ???

As a child, when Abe was a special ed student, at least he was humble. He knew all the other kids were smarter than he. But as an adult, somewhere along the line, emotion and ego alone have propelled him to where he now believes he has great insights and answers to our country's biggest problems.

But you can tell that on some level he still remembers how it was, and deep down he knows how it still is.

Honest Abe says

I see all you intellectuals

^ or trying to "sell something"

George Orwell had the general idea of how propaganda works -- Inner Party, Outer Party, and Proles.

The Inner Party knows it's all bullshit but use propaganda to maintain protection of the status quo. The Outer Party lack the perspective to see the horrible truth but are either coopted or too busy to challenge the propaganda.

The Proles don't need any coopting, they're just too fucking stupid to figure anything out on their own.

Today's Republican party is functioning on this model today. It's all bullshit top-to-bottom, but 60% are unequipped to be anything but believers, 30% are coopted, and one in ten are the actual hard core liars.

It's really quite an impressive operation.

The new figures are out; 42.9 million Americans are now collecting food stamps, an incredible 16.2% increase over last year. Is there anyone out there that really believes this recession is over?

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/12/08/food-stamp-rolls-continue-to-rise/

I'm beginning to think I have missed out on another trend. Maybe I should be collecting food stamps too, all the cool people are doing it.

Whether the recession is technically declared over, or if we are really just teetering on the brink of a double dip, I think it is fair to say that the state of the economy is exacerbating the problem concerning the division of wealth. There are not a lot of jobs to put food on the table. Working at WalMart or some temp job doesn't pay enough. So, I agree with you Ray in that higher food stamp enrollment is not a positive sign. I also agree with you that abuse does exist in the system...some generational dependence has occurred. But, despite some abuse, is it just / right to remove such a basic necessity such as FOOD from the mouths of un and underemployed in such an environment....you know, recessionary, as you pointed out?

Think we should just cut em off....because if they only TRIED hard enough they would find a job? The question is what kind of job wage would they find? The jobs that technology has not replaced have gone to competition of low skilled workers in emerging nations. I do think wealth is condensing and I have to look at the OVERALL picture of the economy and society....not just worry about whether some schmuck is lazy. Do you want to live in a society that doesn't care that people are going hungry?

Check out this cartoon ---> Sort of hard to read but Wall St. guys pass a homeless guy on street, not "seeing" him but move on to notice an appeal to provide aide to Ethopia. The caption reads: "It must be hard living in a country where the rich and powerful completely ignore the needs of the less fortunate."

artistsoul says

has not replaced have gone to competition to low skilled workers in emerging nations

or high-skilled workers who get paid 10% of what we do to do the same work.

Y5,000 is a very good monthly wage in Beijing.

In USD thats $7 x 25 x 4.3. I assume people here can understand what that math represents.

The government for a while has not really represented interest of the nation as a whole. It has been randomly representing random special interests. Which should explain the chaos and double standard in the system.

Selected corporations will get bailed out, selected corporations can pay almost no taxes and write them all off overseas. Selective corporations can be permanently contracted by government, selective corporations are above regulation and above the law. We also have unions, corruption of which I won't go into (too much to write).

Than we have government programs that do exact opposite of helping, for example housing programs artificially drive up housing prices. Same goes for education, where government started giving away billions creating inflation in that sector.

Very disappointing time.

Troy says

or high-skilled workers who get paid 10% of what we do to do the same work.
Y5,000 is a very good monthly wage in Beijing.
In USD thats $7 x 25 x 4.3. I assume people here can understand what that math represents.

In a nutshell, this is the major problem the economy faces. How does a nation that has powerful labor unions, with an aging populace along with an aging infrastructure (factories, etc.), a high standard of living that is heavily dependent upon debt, compete with emerging nations that have virtually none of these problems? Globalism was designed for one primary purpose; to increase the standard of living for the ELITE by lowering the standard for the middle class. Multinational corporations have always sought the following: cheap labor, the availability of natural resources in which to manufacture their products, little to no government intervention, government stability of the nation in which they are located (therein lies a clue as to why our military has hundreds of bases all over the world). Globalism has virtually guaranteed a lower standard of living for Americans. The government continues its desperate attempt to "provide" for its people by extending social programs, unemployment benefits, etc. The problem is, the government has run out of money, and nothing is going to change that fact. That is why they are monetizing their debt (QE1 & QE2 with more to come). The shocking truth is, we are extremely close to a complete economic collapse. IMO, it cannot be avoided.