patrick.net

Don't you think it is interesting that almost every time a local "Realtor" TM ( NAR VERIFIED) is arrested, indicted or found guilty, the local news media say real estate salesman or "broker". I wonder why the NAR doesn't seem to mind that MEMBERS of their organization don't appear to be following those well touted "ethical principles" "excusive ONLY to NAR" members. Yeah right! Come on down to visit my neighborhood where the "Realtards" (TM) will refuse to let sellers list because there are "too many" listings already. IMHO (TM) --The FIRST thing we need to do is SEPARATE MLS services to an "arms length" INDEPENDENT service, only in this way will Realtards (TM) no longer be able to as control the market like they have been doing for too many years. Look at the carnage all around us----dilapidated former "country estates" (800 sq ft starter hovels). If a Realtard (TM) ever uses the word "home" (TM) one more time, I think I will "share" (TM) some "ideas" (TM) with them in "private" (TM)?

Can you image tricking someone to pay over $700,000 for this "estate in an exclusive area"? Now at over 300 DOM they can't give it away for less than 40% of that. But who extracted the 6.5% each time on BOTH sides (buyer and seller?--- Twice. More went to the Realtard (TM) vigorish than to the "house" (TM). Copyrighted PHOTO NOT from the MLS. The selling photo looks like Disneyland ---with a fine print---this is what it COULD look like? LOL ROFL LMAO- Good God Amighty (GGAM) --How can these people (REALTARDS-TM) believe their own lies?

I am happy for you no mater how somebody is upset for the truth you told, you may need to talk to a lawyer see how you can protect yourself or bring them to court if necessary, I mean, if you can make them pay their price for telling lies

When you are up against the Big Guy, expect to lose. There was a restaurant in Santa Cruz CA called McDharmas. It was fast food, but it was a healthy food alternative to the crap served at the corporate McDonalds chain. A fight ensued. Guess who won?

http://www.dharmaland.com/history/sentinel.html

Isn't it a little late for them to be coming after you. Here we are four plus years into the crash now. I guess they have nothing better to do with there time. Isn't there a good RE attorney on this board that can advise you?

I had no idea that 2/3rds of "used house salespeople" were actually Realtors. So then we can put 66% of the housing crash blame on Realtors. Good to know. Thank you Patrick for your hard work.

Patrick, never give in on the capital-letter nonsense; they can be realtors, and they can be Realtors, but they can never demand to be called REALTORS®. The rules of the English language -- namely, the one that states that only acronyms and initialisms are written in all capitals -- trump any ridiculous self-serving corporate guidelines.

She's a fine one to be lecturing people about usage. I notice also that she's got a period at the end of her first sentence despite it being a question. Perhaps we should create "a short video that we use to educate the staff on correct question mark use."

To the NAR:

I guess ASSHATS® was already taken?

Sincerely,

Rock in Key West

watsusay says

I would suggest that you lay off of them. They do possess financial resources and are known to be immoral and definately unethical.

California seems to have good laws protecting freedom of speech from frivolous lawsuits, exactly to protect individuals against organizations with a lot of money. I wonder how well those laws work. I may find out.

I can see their point here, your using there trademarked logo in your logo. They could have some legal recourse here. They can't stop you from talking about Realtor's in forum postings, since using Realtor in forum postings is covered by free speech, but the use of there trademark in your logo is an infringement of there trademark. Try changing your logo to Patrick R Us (backwards R) and see how fast Toys R Us hits you up with a cease and desist court order. I say your playing with fire here ignoring them, change your Logo to say, "What Real Estate Agents will not tell you". Is this really worth get dragged into court and pay thousands in lawyers and fees over this? Possibly even a hefty award, given to the NAR in damages. Do yourself a favor and just change your logo, it's not worth the grief they can cause you.

Damn right! I’m talking about THEM.
That’s “nominative use” for sure.

You can google fair use all you want, the next thing you will be receiving will be a court summons from the NAR. If you don't think they will aggressively pursue this in the court your sadly mistaken. So if you don't have a lots of time and a couple of million laying around you don't need, I was highly recommend complying. They will of course bring up the letter they sent you in court that they tried to inform you of your violation of there trademark and you ignored them. I was thinking that you could write them an apologetic letter telling them how sorry you are and you'll comply immediately, but I think that's a bad idea, could be used later in court against you in a lawsuit, I think it's just better to just change your logo and be done with it.

California seems to have good laws protecting freedom of speech from frivolous lawsuits, exactly to protect individuals against organizations with a lot of money. I wonder how well those laws work. I may find out.

Don't delude yourself, they will take this all the way to the supreme court if they have to, regardless of what California laws say.

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

Realtors® are no more or less protected by anything than Pederasts®, Arsonists® or Nazis®

I beg to differ, none of these other words have a powerful lobbyist organization with deep pockets behind it. I say if every visitor that visited this website, ever gave $10 to Patrick, it wouldn't be enough to cover his legal expenses if they take him to court.

=Oh. My. God.= This blows me away. Patrick, play it safe and don't mess with these people. They've got the deeper pockets.

Personally, I vote for "used house sales people." I laughed at that one as it was soooo true!

Hola Patrick,

First, thanks very much for all of the information you provide. I know you spend a LOT of time on this website, apparently without compensation for your efforts. You are an amazing guy.

Second, don't let the Big Boys provoke you into a fight you cannot win. They know exactly what they are doing, and as said above, it does not matter if you are right or wrong... it only matters that they can force you to waste huge amounts of your time, endure maddening stress, and cost you money out of your pocket. If you allow yourself to outraged and defiant of their "taunts" (legal letters), they will beat you with an ugly stick. You have recieved some good advice above... find out what words you need to change, where disclaimers will let you off the hook, etc.. From personal experience, it is not worth it to fight them, and if you fight on their terms they will win.

Believe me when I say I understand the outrage and the desire to lash back. Be smarter than they are... play the game by the rules and you can still say and do whatever you want!

Email Morgan Spurlock, he trashed McDonald's in his "Super Size Me" documentary, McDonald's didn't win that one. The posters that say the corporations always win... as sad as it is to say, are mostly right.

I had a similar trademark brush with a site I started in 2001, attcapital.net which was an acronym - 'About The Town Capital' I had a building and business in an enterprise zone in Baltimore City, MD, the site was to educate potential business owners, about financing opportunities etc to relocate their business within the enterprise zone, and assist them with contact information, programs available, etc.

I was served by AT&T 2 months after site was online. I never knew they had a subsidiary At&t Capital. I started the game, depositions ect. Quickly, I realized how the game was all stacked in their favor. Their lawyer showed me an accounting of the cost so far, that at&t had paid prior to depositions; $36,000+, and that I would be afforded the opportunity to cease activity, and relinquish the trademarked domain name. If I continued, and lost, the cost could easily rise to 6 or 10 times that amount, of which a judgment would be entered against me... I buckled... game over.

I realize, that my situation was completely different, but the source of funding that these giant pricks have, is all common, and extremely deep pocketed. 20/20 hindsight, if your site was held as a LLC, you could have gone hard against them, then if it turned bad, just let it fold not owing a dime. The ultimate parody! Leaving Realtors, and lawyers holding an empty feces filled sack!

junk says

I realize, that my situation was completely different, but the source of funding that these giant pricks have, is all common, and extremely deep pocketed. 20/20 hindsight, if your site was held as a LLC, you could have gone hard against them, then if it turned bad, just let it fold not owing a dime. The ultimate parody! Leaving Realtors, and lawyers holding an empty feces filled sack!

He makes a good point here, if you haven't already done so, create a Limited Liability Corporation (LLC) to protect yourself for lawsuits in the future. If you want to make Patrick.net your business, then treat it like a business and protect yourself accordingly. It's doubtful creating a LLC now would be of any benefit during your current crisis, since it didn't exist before the violations occurred, but could protect you in the future.

I saw a website mentioned here with a post this weekend that was (unintentionally) very funny:

"All I want for Christimas is...

.... my Short Sale to close.

This year a lot more homeowners and homeowners to be, have added a new wish to their Santa's wish list at Christmas:

•They're wishing for their Short Sale to close and avoid foreclosure.

Put aside the customary wants of years gone by asking for a new Plasma TV, a new car, a set of pots & pans, a new outdoor grill, sterling silver bracelet, a Lazy Boy lounge chair or maybe a new drill or a new tie! This era seems to have given rise to a lot more distress in our lives and to simply avoid foreclosure is high on many people's lists of what they want for Christmas.

I would think that between now and the end of the year we'll see a push to get Short Sales closed so Lenders can get the bad debts off their books before 2010 ends. I have many Short Sales that I'm negotiating and hoping that this to be the case for my Sellers. It's a win win for both the Seller and the Lender." See ActiveRain

I am too lazy (busy) right now to properly annotate this, but simply insert the word/phrase "commission [for me]" wherever a benefit, good, desired goal, or 'win" appears. And speaking of appearances, no industry is as appearance-obsessed as real estate, yet self-awareness is rarely a quality that comes to mind, except by the absence thereof.

This is great! Hopefully this will go to court. Even supreme court! Maybe make the news! Like they say bad press is always good press. I think their attempt to shoot across your bow may have just opened a door they wish they would have left alone.
This is a clear sign of desperation. Go to war.

Prophet Atlantis says

They don’t want you talking about them so don’t use the words they tell you not to use. Don’t respond to their letters. Because if you do then they can use your response to prove you knew what you were doing if you or your writers ‘accidently’ use those words and claim your your purposely damaging them.

100% truth. I noticed in those emails the second thing they were seeking from you (beside compliance) was a confirmation that you understood their vague complaint. Your response to Mary was funny, but unfortunately it gives the lawyers at NAR some ammo. BTW, is there anything lower than being a lawyer for NAR? Isn't that kind of like being the offspring of Hitler and Queen Mary I?

took them this long to figure out? I guess the wrong person probably watched those nightline interviews . Now Patrick has awakened a sleeping giant.

I thought 'the mafia' would be generic by now. Everyone will know who you mean if you just say 'organized crime'.

Odbrush says

This is a clear sign of desperation. Go to war.

Wars cost money. In my opinion even a victory would be an empty one. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawyer and court fees, not to mention lost wages just to be allowed to use a single word however you want. Even if Patrick schools himself in law, defends himself and wins, it not going to be cheap in any sense of the word.

P.S. If you going to piss in the wind, why not change the site's name/logo to "Mcpatrick R Us, What scumbag Realtors will not tell you. Billions served." make sure the R is backwards.

Groucho had the same issue http://www.chillingeffects.org/resource.cgi?ResourceID=31

Only in America do we have free speech and yet allow Lawyers to harass people for the use of words.

I stand firm in my statement that America's modern aliments and the decline of Democracy, is attributed to the lack of good solid Ass beatings. Societal repercussions gets more illegal every day, and a more serious crime.
Coincidence? I think not! The author of that email could use a good trashing before he tries to shat on other peoples liberties.

This is just an attempt at bullying. They don't have case, a very frivolous attempt while at it too.

Be careful with this one Patrick. Talking about them is one thing, but using their trademark in your logo is something else.

Whether or not "realtor" should be trademarked is a different discussion. Fact is that right now it is.

There's a good chance you'll lose with this one. And, even if you win, you'll still lose because you could be bankrupted by the process.

We are all grateful for the light you've helped shed on the housing bubble and collapse. Regardless of the tough talk, I would have to think that every reader would rather see you make a change than actually get sued.

Besides, not all "realtors" are bad. ;)

Hi Patrick,

The facts are that anyone can sue. Regardless of the nature of the suit and validity of the claim. Big corps have always used this method to stifle freedom of speech and essentially shut anyone up that they choose to.

The facts are that properly placed money can shut anyone up and also take their businesses down in a legal heart beat.

Of all people Patrick, I would think that you are fully aware on how these type of issues play out in the U.S. Especially when it comes to real estate and mortgages.

Hopefully you have your own server because next they will attempt to shut you down via your hosting service.

Regards,

Moe Bedard

No one could reasonably think I am using their logo to associate myself with them when saying "What realtors won't tell you". So I think it's fair use, or "nominative use".

The anti-SLAPP laws exist exactly to protect freedom of speech by the poor against the rich. Lawsuits designed simply to shut people up would be the end of our freedom of speech. "Short of a gun to the head, a greater threat to First Amendment expression can scarcely be imagined. — Judge J. Nicholas Colabella (1992)"

Some realtors may be decent people, but the NAR is rotten to the core, using unethically gained commissions to twist our laws to protect their parasitical apparatus at the expense of democracy, the free market, and now freedom of speech.

Ah, I see this is about the logo.

I am not a lawyer but I think this can go either way.

If I had a site promoting veganism and the logo said "Because McDonald's sucks" I could see McD's coming after me.

"The Lanham Act permits a non-owner of a registered trademark to make "fair use" or "nominative use" of a trademark under certain circumstances"

. . .

"An author's use of a trademark for the above-referenced situations should be considered a non-confusing "nominative use" when it meets the following requirements: (1) the trademark owner's product or service must be one that is not readily identifiable without the use of the trademark"

If I were you I'd change the logo from 'realtors' to 'agents'.

Greg Fielding says

Be careful with this one Patrick. Talking about them is one thing, but using their trademark in your logo is something else.
Whether or not “realtor” should be trademarked is a different discussion. Fact is that right now it is.
There’s a good chance you’ll lose with this one. And, even if you win, you’ll still lose because you could be bankrupted by the process.
We are all grateful for the light you’ve helped shed on the housing bubble and collapse. Regardless of the tough talk, I would have to think that every reader would rather see you make a change than actually get sued.
Besides, not all “realtors” are bad.

Oh yeah Greg. Name one real estate who tells their clients the truth right now. The facts are that it is a terrible time to buy a home. Yet we have about 99% of the agents out there saying it is a great time.

Just visit Active Rain or Trulia to see how sick these people are.

Personally, I feel this is "bad" and agents are really greedy for property selling snake oil to first time home buyers who have no clue. Hence, they mislead people daily in order to make a commission. If they told the truth, real estate would die 100% with these crony brokerages and lame sales trainers.

Most real estate agents and their twin red-headed step brothers, Realtors are scum. Plain and simple. The industry needs to be cleaned up BIG TIME.

Since Patrick tells the truth. He will make very little money and may eventually be shut down or bankrupt. That is how it's done with the cartels, right Patrick?

Sincerely,

Moe Bedard

Greg Fielding says

Besides, not all “realtors” are bad. ;)

Where are they hiding?

Using "real estate agent" would get you out from under any SLAP lawsuit brought by the industry.
Not that I support their intimidation tactics, it's the surest indication that you're gettin' their goat Patrick!

No one could reasonably think I am using their logo to associate myself with them when saying “What realtors won’t tell you”. So I think it’s fair use, or “nominative use”.
The anti-SLAPP laws exist exactly to protect freedom of speech by the poor against the rich. Lawsuits designed simply to shut people up would be the end of our freedom of speech. “Short of a gun to the head, a greater threat to First Amendment expression can scarcely be imagined. — Judge J. Nicholas Colabella (1992)”
Some realtors may be decent people, but the NAR is rotten to the core, using unethically gained commissions to twist our laws to protect their parasitical apparatus at the expense of democracy, the free market, and now freedom of speech.

You and I operate similarly. You report the truth on housing and I do on mortgages. Hence, much of the threats and or law suit threats that you may or have experienced, I have as well over the years. Over the last 3 years I have been sued, slandered, received death threats, hate emails, hate calls, been followed by men in back cars with dark sunglasses and had to move into a safe location to make sure my family was safe.

Then I realized, WTF am I doing?!!!!!

Why am I protecting the sheep who love being economically tortured and lied too? They never want to listen to my truths or advice. They only want o hear what they want to hear Patrick. So, here I am screaming from internet roof tops and yelling at people who do no want to hear.

Why should I live in misery or die NOT being listened too and at the same time, putting my family in danger?

About 6 months ago, I decided that I will still speak the truth, but not so that I place my family or self at risk. In addition, I no longer yell or inform people about the truth who refuse to listen. I tell them the facts and move on.

I do listen to these cease and desist emails I get now. Also, the men in black cars with dark sunglasses have stopped coming by my "safe home."

Let me also add that the advertising income as increased as well. Proving to me that fighting the biggest corporations in the world is a form of economic suicide and or russian roulette with a 6 shooter gun and 5 bullets in the chamber.

Moe Bedard

robertoaribas says

Patrick seems to have lost focus here. The NAR does NOT seem to be upset with him for being generally negative to them, but rather for using the trademarked term, which they own, as a general reference to real estate sales agents.

I don't think it's a huge coincidence that he regularly calls them out on their bullshit and unethical practices, and now they're threatening him. They don't tolerate any form of popular anti-NAR sentiment.

No one could reasonably think I am using their logo to associate myself with them when saying “What realtors won’t tell you”. So I think it’s fair use, or “nominative use”.

It's your funeral, can I at least convince you to consult an lawyer before you commit financial suicide. Lawyers can make the unreasonable completely reasonable. If they can get a multimillion dollar award for a lady that burns herself with a obviously hot cup of coffee, I think they can prove copyright infringement in this case.

Patrick,

Please don't get all righteous. This is a trap they are laying. They count on your emotional reaction. Think calmly. I would recommend you to do the following:

(1) Distribute to your subscribers a message saying that you have been and are using the term "realtor" in generic sense, and admit no wrongdoing, however, being a citizen respectful of law, you have to comply with the trademark owner request to change wording on your site in a time and manner specified by the law. This is what youTube is doing all the time, they take down the trademarked material after they are contacted by the trademark owners, without admitting any wrongdoing.

(2) Notwithstanding above, prepare for the war. Your biggest weapons is us, your readers. Protect the list of subscribers at all costs. Move it out of country. Make sure you are not the only one who has access to it - create a web of trusted people that is not easy to shut down. Set up a mirror Web site abroad, complete with donation acceptance infrastructure.

(3) Think hard identifying politicians who may be interested in making their name as fighters for the cause of homeowners against greedy misleading we know who. Contact them. Make sure they know what's going on.

(4) In case the we know who actually come up with a lawsuit, quickly ask your subscribers for emergency donations. The one-time donation between $100 and $200 sounds reasonable to me. Use it to fight them legally and in the media.

It is estimated that a pissed-off customer cost a company loss of about 20 other customers. Using your subscribers and media, you can inflict very serious damage on their business, especially if some of the just-elected politicians decide to join on your side, and there are some genuine mavericks out there now in both congress and senate. If a word of what the we know who are doing to you gets to the level of national media, they are going to lose big, no matter whether they win or not in the court.

Good luck!

TechGromit says

If they can get a multimillion dollar award for a lady that burns herself with a obviously hot cup of coffee

I for one think the $3M award (mostly punitive damages) was entirely correct. "Obviously hot" is different from "unnecessarily dangerously hot".

It's a small thing, but elemental product safety requirements is what separates us from China, and we get product safety by penalizing those who cut the corners on it.

krav says

...

(4) In case the we know who actually come up with a lawsuit ...

Oh there's going to be a lawsuit, now that you come to there attention, they are not going to just ignore you. There may be another strongly worded letter from one of there lawyers asking you to cease and desist, but after that they will file court papers. It might be as long as a month or two, but the suit is a coming.

Rightous or not this is going to COST YOU ALOT.

Come to your senses and just change Realtors® to Real estate agents in your logo.

Patrick,

I would also look at this from a PR standpoint. If the general media got wind of this, I could see the Realtors Association backing down out of embarrassment. This story of the little guy versus mean big corporation I think would be well suited to MSNBC's Dylan Ratigan, Ed Schultz or Keith Olberman shows. Keep up the good work. SJ

TechGromit says

Come to your senses and just change Realtors to Real estate agents in your logo.

Or just be even more vague and say "Real estate fucks".

I just want to know what I legally HAVE to do.

I'm pretty sure I don't have to remove all mention of the very group I'm criticising. But maybe I have to put the little trademark symbol after their name, though I'm not too sure about that either. Most websites do not, even big ones. Just google realtor for news. :-)

I have now asked a lawyer, via a reader who forwarded my email to him.

Patrick,
Personally, I've always felt a little uncomfortable with the across the board attack on "Realtors" by most on this site as if all "Realtors" are corrupt, etc. The National Assoc. of Realtors, whether you agree with this premise or not, maintains that their primary purpose is to regulate their members according to their Code of Ethics. Attacks on their integrity as an organization is not going to be taken lightly because it strikes at the very heart of their existence. This organization also happens to be one of the largest lobbies in Washington, which translates into a lot of money behind them. I would strongly advise you to follow their directions and would even go to the extent of eliminating the use of that trademark in posts and threads. Furthermore, as a registered trademark, there is no such thing as a generic use. IMO, this is not a Constitutional issue at all. Trademark laws are in existence for a purpose and I am sure, based on the attorney’s letter to you, they are serious about protecting their trademark.

swj2009 says

Patrick,
I would also look at this from a PR standpoint. If the general media got wind of this, I could see the Realtors Association backing down out of embarrassment. This story of the little guy versus mean big corporation I think would be well suited to MSNBC’s Dylan Ratigan, Ed Schultz or Keith Olberman shows. Keep up the good work. SJ

Yea sort of like Monster Cables.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/09/monster-cable-learns-nothing-sues-monster-transmission/

http://consumerist.com/2008/12/monster-cable-sues-monster-minigolf-for-trademark-infringement.html

Monster Cable has also sued the following companies:

* Discovery Channel for Monster Garage
* Disney for Monsters, Inc
* Bally Gaming International Inc. for its Monster Slots.
* Hansen Beverage Co. for a Monster Energy drink.
* The Chicago Bears, whose nickname is Monsters of the Midway.
* MonsterVintage.com
* Monster.com

Don't put too much stock in Negative PR. If the NAR want to protect there copyrighted trademark, they HAVE to sue, popular or not.