patrick.net

tatupu70 says

I don’t disagree with using a sound system to make your selection

Sure, a "sound system" Sounds great! ... So what exactly is your definition of a sound system, how is it validated, implemented, adjusted to not result in "adverse impact" while not degrading its original predictive value, and of course, regulated?

Clarence 13X says

The only way is to set aside a certain amount of positions as is being done by large corporations.

So, an individual who is not a minority should be passed over for a job even if they are much more qualified than an individual who is a member of a "minority class?"

You, sir, are a racist!

Yeah, I'm telling you, this issue really has the racists like Clarence showing their true colors.

Paralithodes says

So, an individual who is not a minority should be passed over for a job even if they are much more qualified than an individual who is a member of a “minority class?”
You, sir, are a racist!

Are you assuming that it is impossible to fill a set number of positions with minorities without passing up more qualified individuals that are not minorities??

That sounds racist to me.

tatupu70 says

Are you assuming that it is impossible to fill a set number of positions with minorities without passing up more qualified individuals that are not minorities??
That sounds racist to me.

Yes, assuming such a thing would sound racist to me as well. I guess it's a good thing I don't make that general assumption and instead focus on the impact of an arbitrary quota on the rights of individuals .

IMO, it is absolutely fine to set a number of positions as a goal, and perform extended outreach to find qualified candidates among under-represented groups. The higher the number of qualified candidates you can get from under-represented groups, the higher the likelihood that more will be selected as a proportion of the total selected. That, in fact is the actual definition of "Affirmative Action."

A set-aside number of positions, or "quotas" in actual terms, is something else entirely. If you believe it is "racist" to be against a quota, that's fine. I believe it is "racist" to be for one. Which position makes "race" an explicit part of the selection criteria? Hint - it's not my position.

Paralithodes says

tatupu70 says

Are you assuming that it is impossible to fill a set number of positions with minorities without passing up more qualified individuals that are not minorities??
That sounds racist to me.

Yes, assuming such a thing would sound racist to me as well. I guess it’s a good thing I don’t make that general assumption and instead focus on the impact of an arbitrary quota on the rights of individuals .
IMO, it is absolutely fine to set a number of positions as a goal, and perform extended outreach to find qualified candidates among under-represented groups. The higher the number of qualified candidates you can get from under-represented groups, the higher the likelihood that more will be selected than otherwise. That, in fact is the actual definition of “Affirmative Action.”
A set-aside position, or “quota” in actual terms, is something else entirely. If you believe it is “racist” to be against a quota, that’s fine. I believe it is “racist” to be for one. Which position makes “race” an explicit part of the selection criteria? Hint - it’s not my position.

I pretty much agree. I only think quotas are useful if companies can't be trusted to do the outreach or hire qualified minorities. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but at this point I don't think quotas are necessary.

tatupu70 says

I pretty much agree. I only think quotas are useful if companies can’t be trusted to do the outreach or hire qualified minorities. Maybe I’m overly optimistic, but at this point I don’t think quotas are necessary.

There have in fact been some court cases ordering some organizations to establish some quotas and hire some minorities. One of the most famous is Sheet Metal Workers Union # 28, which was ordered to do so by the Supreme Court:
http://www.answers.com/topic/local-28-of-sheet-metal-workers-international-association-v-equal-employment-opportunity-commission
I have no issue with it being implemented in specific cases, to remedy a specifically identified problem. I believe we are in near full agreement on this issue, sir.

it is all about intent and focus.

If the intent is to hire the absolute best person for a job, and the focus is finding the absolute best person for a job, then there is no reason to pay any attention to anything that does not help reach that goal.

The "idea" that focusing and intending to hire someone that matches some pulled-from-thin-air special "protected" class description, as oposed to the absolute best candidate is absolutly undefendable. That type of system is a luxury, and is in no way productive. As a matter of fact, if anyone cars to look at facts and nature and life honestly, a system based on the whole "protected" class focus is destructive. As with most every feelgood system forced on the American public, the system of forced devirsity has a net-negative effect.

There is only one NBA Champ. And anyone that makes a team has a chance to win it. None of the NBA rules or requirements mention race - by the way.
There is only one NASCAR Cup. Anyone that makes the team is welcome to try for it. None of the NASCAR rules mention race either.
One of these is dominated by a "protected" (as per left-minded rules) "class", and nobody has ever tries to force for more racial diversity in it's ranks. The other is dominated by a "non-protected class" and has been attacked and forced to come up with some type of diversity program based on race. Interesting, huh?

I wonder how this whole conversation would be viewed one hundred fifty years from now.

My opinion is that these questions would seem like quaint ancient history. It will be difficult for any person, even those who are socially retarded, to comprehend that this was considered (by some - not me) political. And I think they will agree with those here who say that diversity never needs to be, or needs to have been forced, for example in law schools or large corporations.

But then, if you have never lived in a very sheltered homogeneous population, how would you know what that was like ? How would you know whether expediting the inevitable at that time had any social or economic advantages ?

Paralithodes says

I blame Bush.

what the heck Bush do to hold back diversity....I am not sure I understand this one.

Bap33 says

The “idea” that focusing and intending to hire someone that matches some pulled-from-thin-air special “protected” class description, as oposed to the absolute best candidate is absolutly undefendable. That type of system is a luxury, and is in no way productive. As a matter of fact, if anyone cars to look at facts and nature and life honestly, a system based on the whole “protected” class focus is destructive. As with most every feelgood system forced on the American public, the system of forced devirsity has a net-negative effect.

Yes, class focus is destructive. However, it ia apparently clear that no nother ethic groups are permitted the same opportunities as whites in the workplace. If not for the cherry picking and buddy system I would agree 100% with you.

Until we can measure performance in the workplace like we can in sports we have to put in place measures to ensure that qualified canidates are not overlooked simply because their culture is different.

marcus says

I wonder how this whole conversation would be viewed one hundred fifty years from now.
My opinion is that these questions would seem like quaint ancient history. It will be difficult for any person, even those who are socially retarded, to comprehend that this was considered (by some - not me) political. And I think they will agree with those here who say that diversity never needs to be, or needs to have been forced, for example in law schools or large corporations.
But then, if you have never lived in a very sheltered homogeneous population, how would you know what that was like ? How would you know whether expediting the inevitable at that time had any social or economic advantages ?

I think in 150 years it will be known that diversity efforts in the workplace are what will lead developing nations to buy a companies products. Large corporations are already placing focus on diversity because they see the value in the ideas of a diverse group that can re-focus their products towards the untapped markets.

My point is not to take jobs away from qualified canidates but to put a stop to the CHERRY PICKING and GOOD OL BOYS network that prevents qualified canidates from truly competing.

The good ol boys network can include wome, blacks, others as well...its just depends on the culture of the main power group.

Clarence 13X says

However, it ia apparently clear that no nother ethic groups are permitted the same opportunities as whites in the workplace.

That being just "whites" could be argued I think.
Many places of work have an obvious tilt towards a particular ethnic group. And for any lower paying job, or non-white dominated job, it seems to be "ok" with those behind forced diversity. For example, Joe Perez tile has mostly hispanic workers, and nobody is suprized or upset by this. Univision and Telemundo hire ONLY hispanics, no persons of negro, anglo, or monglo backgrounds are seen on any telecast. While ABC or CBS or FOX all have most ethnic groups in place (even if by force), and STILL there is not a word from those in favor of forced diversity about the hispanic channels. BET is not presented as a non-biased channel, and SHOULD get a pass for any forced diversity. Same with any religion or ethnic based channel, there should be no push to force diversity. Right? And there we have it, a reasonible excuse for ethnic domination in a workplace.

The same can be said about industrial production work. You just will not see many women in that environment. But, the workforce will almost exactly match the demographics of the lower-moddle class in that area. No tilt in any ethnic direction, other than that based on population. There is a sex based tilt due to the work environment. In this case, it is NOT right or productive to force ACME Welding and Design to maintain a particular number of anything. All they want to find and hire are the absolute best heavy work, loud noise, get dirty, bust ass rough-necks they can find. Why doesn't this make sense to more left-minded people?

Clarence 13X, You seem to have a reasonible grasp of reality, but many left-minded people really do not understand why it is "ok" to focus on being productive and having workforce continuity. When you walk in the DiMarco Deli in Monterey, you do not act suprized to see 5 heavy-set Itailians cutting meat. When you walk into South Side Johnny's in Pittsburg near the tracks, you will find all negro people at work - but the patrons are mostly white folks.

In my honest opinion, this issue is only focused on better paying jobs. And those take special skills or special education. Special skills and special education are garnered alot of ways, but mostly through individual effort. That may be where the division between ethnic groups begins. If a person is raised in a house where education is not valued, then they may not be motivated to attain a special education that would result in a higher paying job. If a person is raised in a home where special skills are not discussed and their value made obvious, then that person may not look for and develop their God given special skill (I do believe each person is granted a special skill in something). One more important thing I want to share about me, to keep the air clear, I look at each worker as a tool (of sorts), and by that I mean they are of use and value if used correctly - just like a tool. If you try to drive a nail with a wrench you do a poor job of driving nails and you mess up a wrench. Forced diversity has the boss looking for a way to drive nails with wrenches, or tighten bolts with hammers, and that is not the best idea.

Bap33 says

Clarence 13X says

However, it ia apparently clear that no nother ethic groups are permitted the same opportunities as whites in the workplace.

That being just “whites” could be argued I think.
Many places of work have an obvious tilt towards a particular ethnic group. And for any lower paying job, or non-white dominated job, it seems to be “ok” with those behind forced diversity. For example, Joe Perez tile has mostly hispanic workers, and nobody is suprized or upset by this. Univision and Telemundo hire ONLY hispanics, no persons of negro, anglo, or monglo backgrounds are seen on any telecast. While ABC or CBS or FOX all have most ethnic groups in place (even if by force), and STILL there is not a word from those in favor of forced diversity about the hispanic channels. BET is not presented as a non-biased channel, and SHOULD get a pass for any forced diversity. Same with any religion or ethnic based channel, there should be no push to force diversity. Right? And there we have it, a reasonible excuse for ethnic domination in a workplace.
The same can be said about industrial production work. You just will not see many women in that environment. But, the workforce will almost exactly match the demographics of the lower-moddle class in that area. No tilt in any ethnic direction, other than that based on population. There is a sex based tilt due to the work environment. In this case, it is NOT right or productive to force ACME Welding and Design to maintain a particular number of anything. All they want to find and hire are the absolute best heavy work, loud noise, get dirty, bust ass rough-necks they can find. Why doesn’t this make sense to more left-minded people?
Clarence 13X, You seem to have a reasonible grasp of reality, but many left-minded people really do not understand why it is “ok” to focus on being productive and having workforce continuity. When you walk in the DiMarco Deli in Monterey, you do not act suprized to see 5 heavy-set Itailians cutting meat. When you walk into South Side Johnny’s in Pittsburg near the tracks, you will find all negro people at work - but the patrons are mostly white folks.
In my honest opinion, this issue is only focused on better paying jobs. And those take special skills or special education. Special skills and special education are garnered alot of ways, but mostly through individual effort. That may be where the division between ethnic groups begins. If a person is raised in a house where education is not valued, then they may not be motivated to attain a special education that would result in a higher paying job. If a person is raised in a home where special skills are not discussed and their value made obvious, then that person may not look for and develop their God given special skill (I do believe each person is granted a special skill in something). One more important thing I want to share about me, to keep the air clear, I look at each worker as a tool (of sorts), and by that I mean they are of use and value if used correctly - just like a tool. If you try to drive a nail with a wrench you do a poor job of driving nails and you mess up a wrench. Forced diversity has the boss looking for a way to drive nails with wrenches, or tighten bolts with hammers, and that is not the best idea.

Well said, I agree with each of your points 100%. However, in past I have interviewed at a faith based organization which has the legal right to ask what religion you are and as well I have interviewed at a openly gay company. In each instance I felt totally discriminated against in that I was not of the same culture. However much my skills were a fit for the role I was not seen as capable due to my religion and sexual orientation.

I am not jiving either, these experiences left me feeling violated in the worst way more so than any interview ever. Some days I wish this were basketball so I could develop only my skills and not have to worry about the personality traits the interviewer may or may not be looking for.

Also....talked with my wife about my theories and she agrees that blacks need to "man" up and stop making excuses. Which, if it were not for the mental disorder called HIP HOP I would agree.

Clarence 13X says

However much my skills were a fit for the role I was not seen as capable due to my religion and sexual orientation.

That's the trouble. Nobody knows the "why". You may be 100% correct in your thought, but one just never knows. It could have been because you drove a newer car than the last guy. It may have been because you wrote left handed. It may have been because his ex's name was Clarence. There just is no way to know. .... unless they are stupid enough to give a reason.... and even then it's possibly not absolute truth.

I am not a fan of Hip Hop. I dig Smokie though.

Clarence 13X says

Also….talked with my wife about my theories and she agrees that blacks need to “man” up and stop making excuses. Which, if it were not for the mental disorder called HIP HOP I would agree.

Isn't that pretty much what Bill Cosby has been trying to say? I don't remember his comments being met with a whole lot of support from the Black community ... am I wrong in that?

Clarence 13X says

However much my skills were a fit for the role I was not seen as capable due to my religion and sexual orientation.

Every organization has a "culture." Take two companies in the same industry, with exactly the same representation of diversity in their respective workforces (representation that gets the Clarence 13X seal of approval) and those companies will STILL have different cultures.

The degree to which one fits within a corporate culture may not be a sound basis for judging one's knowledge, skills, and abilities, but it definitely impacts how successful one is with implementing them most effectively (let's call this "capability").

Get beyond your racial victimhood ideology and your issue is simply an issue with human nature. How do we change that?

Clarence 13X says

what the heck Bush do to hold back diversity….I am not sure I understand this one.

It was a joke. Broaden your base to include more conservative friends and you may hear it from time to time. Say what you want about conservatives today blaming Obama for everything, but it was no different in reverse when Bush was President (it was probably no different going back almost Washington, or Adams at least). A running joke is that everything was Bush's fault. Solar flares knock out a GPS satellite? I blame Bush, etc... A squirrel got ran over on I-95? I blame Bush, etc. One of the funnier websites out there (not updated in quite a while, and will not be seen as funny by most here for obvious reason) is in my opinion: http://blamebush.typepad.com/

RayAmerica says

Clarence 13X says

Also….talked with my wife about my theories and she agrees that blacks need to “man” up and stop making excuses. Which, if it were not for the mental disorder called HIP HOP I would agree.

Isn’t that pretty much what Bill Cosby has been trying to say? I don’t remember his comments being met with a whole lot of support from the Black community … am I wrong in that?

Progressive blacks support Bill Cosby 100%. We cannot look at the community as a single entity anymore. Educated people support Bill Cosby, ignorant Ghetto people dont.

Clarence .... I'm deeply concerned about the values of all young people, regardless of race. There seems to be a concerted effort to dumb down an entire generation, perpetrated by, amongst others, the entertainment industry, etc. There are still a lot of good kids out there, but they seem to be a minority. I don't think there's ever been a tougher time for a decent kid to grow up and maintain his or her values, because it just isn’t “cool.” Not long ago, we attended a funeral of a 21 year old that died of a Heroin overdose. The father is a friend of mine. He tried everything but couldn’t save his son. There were an awful lot of kids at the funeral with the gang garb, tattoos, etc. The father told me they’re all heavily into drugs and his kid just got caught up with this bad crowd. I’ve never seen so many distant, lost looks in one place. I’m fearful that this drug culture, Hip Hop, etc. is far more rampant than I ever imagined.

Exactly, our children are going to school and becoming acceptable to a culture where it is no longer cool to be educated.

Race doesnt have much to do with anything at this point because all kids seem to be following Rock, Hip Hop instead of following the culture of business. My research on the black community has found a lot of this started during the liberation movements of the 60s. Radical blacks stop wanting to be like the "white" man so they stopped even trying to speak, act or dress like the "white" man. I also believe that during this perioud all other youth became infatuated with the rock and roll drug culture and have lost focus on the culture of business.

This is why so many immigrants are successful in business, they come here without the history of oppression and culture of materialism that all Americans have. Your right about race because I have found that everyone has been oppressed at one point.....and BAP33 makes a darn good point that we could include fat people, ugly people, one armed people, short people in the groups that have been opressed.

The entertainment industry is eating our young and using free speech as the weapon. The more I read about poverty the more I realize that the media perpetuates a victim mentality to the poor who latch on to the crutches of socialistic programs.

At this point I am ready to increase the penalties and requirement for those non-participants in society who have no need to use these programs.

Do you feel there is a strong link between drug abuse and these issues?

Clarence 13X says

The entertainment industry is eating our young and using free speech as the weapon. The more I read about poverty the more I realize that the media perpetuates a victim mentality to the poor who latch on to the crutches of socialistic programs.

Have you ever noticed that in just about every movie the parents are complete idiots, the dad is either cheating or left his wife for a "younger version", and the kids have to break the law or request the assistance of an evil entity to achieve self-worth? And we wonder why kids are so freaking confused and screwed up ... Even a seemingly innocuous movie like The Little Mermaid has the heroine (scantily clad, of course...if you can call a sea-shell bra clad) make a deal with a devil-like figure because she has the hots for some guy. How does all this turn out? She gets the man, of course, and lives happily ever after! Exactly what good parents want to teach their children...

Paralithodes says

Clarence 13X says

However much my skills were a fit for the role I was not seen as capable due to my religion and sexual orientation.

Every organization has a “culture.” Take two companies in the same industry, with exactly the same representation of diversity in their respective workforces (representation that gets the Clarence 13X seal of approval) and those companies will STILL have different cultures.
The degree to which one fits within a corporate culture may not be a sound basis for judging one’s knowledge, skills, and abilities, but it definitely impacts how successful one is with implementing them most effectively (let’s call this “capability”).
Get beyond your racial victimhood ideology and your issue is simply an issue with human nature. How do we change that?

I am not a holder of the "victim" title. I have a BS, serveral certifications, plus am working on my masters. Victims sit back and complain...I am taking action.

Yes, all organizations have a different culture. The Lakers and Patriots each have their own locker room culture, but the culture, racial identity is not what dictates a player making the team. For example, most white players are not athletic enough (quick, jump) to make the team with pure athleticism, however, they can still make the team by working on their shooting, defense, dribbling a la Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Larry Bird. No where in the tryout process is the color of these players skin, culture or religious identity taken into factor. It depends all on their "capability" and that capability is not determined by race, culture, height, weight or gender.

I would like to say that the Patriots or Lakers dont use culture as the predominant factor in selecting players so why should the corporations be allowed to silently disqualify individuals based on social and cultural criteria?

...this excludes qualified individuals simply because their parents were short, black, white, fat, etc.

Bap33 says

Do you feel there is a strong link between drug abuse and these issues?

Drug abuse, mental illness, culture and mentality.

It used to be that only blacks and mexicans of native descent felt pushed aside but I think that many people are starting to latch on to the concept that the imaginary "man" is keeping them down. After growing up poor I simply went to college to turn my life around, while others did nothing to improve their lot in life. Now my only worry is how to maintain my current lifestyle during the downturn, where those that did nothing cant seem to find a job.

EightBall says

Clarence 13X says

The entertainment industry is eating our young and using free speech as the weapon. The more I read about poverty the more I realize that the media perpetuates a victim mentality to the poor who latch on to the crutches of socialistic programs.

Have you ever noticed that in just about every movie the parents are complete idiots, the dad is either cheating or left his wife for a “younger version”, and the kids have to break the law or request the assistance of an evil entity to achieve self-worth? And we wonder why kids are so freaking confused and screwed up … Even a seemingly innocuous movie like The Little Mermaid has the heroine (scantily clad, of course…if you can call a sea-shell bra clad) make a deal with a devil-like figure because she has the hots for some guy. How does all this turn out? She gets the man, of course, and lives happily ever after! Exactly what good parents want to teach their children…

I have also noticed that every Disney movie revolves around some form of death or lost of a loved one.

Clarence 13X says

Bap33 says

Do you feel there is a strong link between drug abuse and these issues?

Drug abuse, mental illness, culture and mentality.
It used to be that only blacks and mexicans of native descent felt pushed aside but I think that many people are starting to latch on to the concept that the imaginary “man” is keeping them down. After growing up poor I simply went to college to turn my life around, while others did nothing to improve their lot in life. Now my only worry is how to maintain my current lifestyle during the downturn, where those that did nothing cant seem to find a job.

yes, good post.

I see drug abuse as a sign of mental issues .. even if the mental issue is really nothing more than a weak character or a follow-the-leader type, that can't stand up to peer pressure.

Culture ... amen. That is a biggie. Would you agree that broken families/homes (dad repalced by welfare for example) are the place where cultures begin to fracture?

Bap33 says

Clarence 13X says

Bap33 says

Do you feel there is a strong link between drug abuse and these issues?

Drug abuse, mental illness, culture and mentality.
It used to be that only blacks and mexicans of native descent felt pushed aside but I think that many people are starting to latch on to the concept that the imaginary “man” is keeping them down. After growing up poor I simply went to college to turn my life around, while others did nothing to improve their lot in life. Now my only worry is how to maintain my current lifestyle during the downturn, where those that did nothing cant seem to find a job.

yes, good post.
I see drug abuse as a sign of mental issues .. even if the mental issue is really nothing more than a weak character or a follow-the-leader type, that can’t stand up to peer pressure.
Culture … amen. That is a biggie. Would you agree that broken families/homes (dad repalced by welfare for example) are the place where cultures begin to fracture?

Yes and No.

In my case NO......I grew3 up on welfare which supplemented my fathers income. He was a tire man fixing flats for low wages which during the 40s were actually really good wages. However, by the 1980s $7.50/hour was not much so we had to go on welfare since my mom was stayed home with us kids.

In the current generation I say YES. I am not sure how much the welfare provides a crutch for the missing father because I had a father in the household but I think it safe to say YES. But from what we see on Maury Povich I think at this point it would be safe to assume the fathers dont care about their children one bit and without the welfare the families will go hungry. In which case we simply need to add lunch lines for children only, because as you can see from my experiences with my mother...I am not one to provide for those that can help themselves.

We have to increase the penalty for both parents, holding them accountable for raising fully functional children and the betterment of their lives. These programs require reforming, which in turn should reduce the families dependence on welfare.

I am going to read up more on the welfare state topics.