patrick.net

SF Ace,

There is no place left to build in North Jersey. The more affluent towns have already been established. In fact, the population has been virtually the same for the last 20 years. That's what's so frustrating. Wages rise at the so-called rate of inflation, UE at 9.2% here and prices of houses almost double with a slight backslide. No asset fails to revert to the mean... I'll wait, but it really s*cks and I can't figure it out.

Fast Eddie,
If the price cannot be substantiated at current level, why can't you sell your property, cash out and become a renter? According to you you bought it 10 years ago when the price was less by nearly half; I bet the comparable rent hasn't inflated up by the same amount since then. So it can be cheaper to rent than own. And when the price finally comes back down, you can buy bigger house with same money.

Don't know who would want to live in New Jersey - let alone spend that kind of money for a house in that landfill...

I grew up on the east coast in the Delmarva area - I'm now on the west coast - but Jersey was always referred to as "dirty Jersey" or the "arm pit of the east coast." Yes, it's close to NYC, but the state is filthy and the road system is horrible. That may be the most over-valued state in the country.

Future Cash Buyer,

My daughter starts high school in 2012 and the public high school in my town is not an option so I'm moving one way or another in the next 12 to 24 months. If the house prices are still insane by then, I will consider renting. I never considered it before but the dynamics have changed so drastically, that it's starting to make sense.

joshuatrio,

Don't forget the big hair, The Sopranos and Snooki (lol)! Maybe the Turnpike going through Linden and Elizabeth isn't too hot but drive through Somerset, Hunterdon, Warren, Sussex and Upper Bergen and tell me if it's dirty. Over-Valued? Over-taxed? Most of it, probably! Which is why I still can't figure flat wage increases, nominally as opposed to property taxes and house prices doubling.

"It’s beyond absurd and I think potential buyers are suckers for even making any bid unless it’s a considerable lowball."

I'm in northern NJ too. If I come over to your house tonight and make a lowball offer, I assume you will take it, right? Or did you mean that buyers are suckers if they don't make lowballs on OTHER peoples' houses?

HousingWatcher,

I'll price my house at 3.5% appreciation year over year since the time I bought it. I paid $225,000 for it so I'd price it around 315K to 320K if I wanted to sell today. It's a modest house in a modest neighborhood. The guy across the street about a block down from me has his house listed for $419,000 and it's basically the same house as mine. He said he's not taking less than 399K. The house sits... and sits.

My Dad passed away a year ago and we had to sell the house. Similar houses in his neighborhood are sitting forever, way over-priced. We went 10% less than similar listings w/o an agent and got an all cash deal in 3 weeks.

So, let me ask you, are you underwater? I want to sell my house, not ride the market down endlessly. And I'm not funding someone elses retirement. I'll wait. If I have to sell and then rent, I'll do so if it means my daughter goes to a certain school that appeals to us. And yes, the buyers are idiots if they fall for the bullsh1t and overp-pay. Anything desirable in the nicer neighborhoods in Bergen and Western Essex County are still absurdly over-priced.

nope, I'm not underwater. But my property taxes in Bergen Co. are $15k a year, so I would like to sell for that reason. Ideally I would like to dump the house on some fool before the taxes hit $20k.

after owning for some time I really couldn't imagine going back to renting at this point. You would have to pay me a lot more than the difference saved by renting.

HousingWatcher,

Hey, I agree with you. I think it's all absurd. We were targeting Bergen County but I shake my head in disbelief. It's frustrating, without a doubt.

HousingWatcher says

nope, I’m not underwater. But my property taxes in Bergen Co. are $15k a year, so I would like to sell for that reason. Ideally I would like to dump the house on some fool before the taxes hit $20k.

Alpine?

No, I don't live in Alpine. Would be nice if I did though. Where do you live klarek? Are you also in NJ?

Unfortuately there are virtually no places in NJ with low taxes. You pretty much need to leave the state. We definitely need some sort of Prop 13 in NJ. Hopefully Christie will look into this when he's done villifying teachers.

Mr.Fantastic says

15k a year?!

TX is just as bad, if not worse in areas. NJ takes the CAKE though. They have income tax, sales tax AND beat your bottom property taxes. TX only has absurdly high property taxes (think Bexar County - SA area - where you pay $16k on a nice home but not a mansion). TX also has a sick sales tax.

I'm no longer from Bexar County. We think of moving back occasionally...cost of living is lower but the taxes can eat a person alive. You get a sweet house for $750k but you pay FOREVER out the nose for it (over $15k in prop tax). NJ...??? Ouch. Capital Ouch.

what? the bay area limousine liberals complaining about high taxes?? Mon Deiu!

Yes, property taxes are highest in the country on top of the "unstoppable" house prices. Six times the median salary for something considered liveable is absurd. If you want something that looks even close to middle to upper middle tier, be prepared for a $650,000 price tag minimum. Now, the 30 yr. fixed looks like it's going to break lose. Good luck! And how do those Option ARM resets in 2011 to 2012 look? LOL! Hello! You want to add in healthcare costs and general cost of living as well? Wait until you read those stories into 2012 and beyond.

Future Cash Buyer says

No it is even crazier in the premium areas in the central OC (Irvine). Upper 400s to low 500s can only get you 3 BR Attached Condos here, some may not even have a backyard. HOAs for these condos go from $200 to $400 a month. 1% base property tax and for new developments you also have 40 year bond of mello roos about $4000 a year. Not sure about the medium income in your area, probably higher than OC.

You missed his point. You are talking about "premium areas" of California. He's talking about the slums in Northern NJ that are filled with starter homes that still have kitchens and socket outlets from the 1940s.

the reason prices aren't moving in NJ is because the foreclosure crisis hit NJ about 2 years later than everywhere else in the country. Meanwhile, the banks have already been bailed out and they have been sitting on the giant inventory of foreclosed homes. Every block in NJ is filled with a vacant home. As long as the banks are permitted to keep those properties off market using the government as a backstop to support their balance sheet, you aren't going to see a price collapse in NJ.

It's not just NJ. It's the entire NYC metro area. Things have gotten better, but their still not near the mean.

It's not just NJ or NYC area. It's entire northeastern suburbs near metro cities from MA to VA.

coldstoli says

what? the bay area limousine liberals complaining about high taxes?? Mon Deiu!

Vous devez me faire confondre pour quelqu'un d'autre. Mais je vous remercie, olseau de nuit, d'avoir pris le temps de vous inscire juste pour dire ca a moi.

yes, $15k a year.

Where in Bergen? My inlaws are in Verona in Essex county and the prices are WAY WAY down from the peak. Yes they pay 15k a year in taxes also, and the township just cut them back from 10 to 5 leaf bags a year.

artistsoul says

Bexar County - SA area - where you pay $16k on a nice home but not a mansion

Try Cameron county, I'm only paying $2100 on 2700 sq ft with a 3/4 acre property in the middle of town 20 minutes from South Padre.

bob2356 says

Try Cameron county, I’m only paying $2100 on 2700 sq ft with a 3/4 acre property in the middle of town 20 minutes from South Padre.

Low taxes there is more a factor of the cost of homes in that region. I think you handle rentals out there, right? I couldn't imagine living anywhere in TX other than the Austin / San Antonio "Hill Country" Area. Right now, taxes in Bexar County are 2.15%, Comal and Kendall Counties (also in Hill Country area) have slightly lower property taxes, but still comparatively high. Your example home in Cameron County is probably only assessed less than $200k...so of course your prop taxes are reasonable!

The most relevant issue in terms of this thread is that NJ taxes are high enough that, like certain areas elsewhere, folks who have owned homes for decades are having to consider moving solely b/c they won't be able to swing the property taxes anymore. Certainly, very high property taxes are a hinderance if you are trying to consider retiring in NJ. $15K or $20k per year can really cut into most folks retirement funds.

artistsoul says

I couldn’t imagine living anywhere in TX other than the Austin / San Antonio “Hill Country” Area.

To each his own. I really liked living in the Rio Grande valley and look forward to living there again someday. It's like being on a tropical island in the Caribbean. Sugar cane and cotton everywhere, hot and muggy so you are inspired to spend lots of time at the beach, and almost no one speaks english. On a serious note the cost of living there is so cheap it has to be experienced to be believed.

HousingWatcher says

nope, I’m not underwater. But my property taxes in Bergen Co. are $15k a year, so I would like to sell for that reason. Ideally I would like to dump the house on some fool before the taxes hit $20k.

I can't imagine why anyone would pay more in property taxes alone than the should be paying in rent.

Obligatory NJ picture:

HousingWatcher says

nope, I’m not underwater. But my property taxes in Bergen Co. are $15k a year, so I would like to sell for that reason. Ideally I would like to dump the house on some fool before the taxes hit $20k.

That is like my yearly rent. Sounds like no deal to me.

Mr.Fantastic says

15k a year?!!

Have you ever been fishing? The bait always dies. Nice try though. Happy Holidays!

Mr.Fantastic says

You know, last year I spent $15,000, and it wasn’t on property taxes.

Glad to hear you have $15k to spend....

What? 15K on taxes? What happened to banks share? insurance? maintenance? ....and where is the price appreciation to justify that? I am happy renting.

HousingWatcher says

No, I don’t live in Alpine. Would be nice if I did though. Where do you live klarek? Are you also in NJ?

No, I mistook you for an old zillow regular that called himself Alpine. He was screaming from the rooftops for ages that there was no housing bubble, at least in Bergen Co. I was born around those parts but haven't lived there as an adult. Too expensive!

NJ certainly has some nasty parts. Elizabeth, Newark, etc.--anything visible from NYC across the river--and then pretty much all the way down to Old Bridge. The beach towns to the south are not so much dirty as just filled with trashy people.

But if you go to towns like Bridgewater, or Short Hills, or Princeton, you see why they call it the "garden state." We used to drive out on Routes 80 and 78 going west and picnic all over the great scenery . . . mountains, lush trees, etc. If you go out on 80, anything past Parsippany on to the Penn state line is gorgeous. Northwest and centralwest Jersey are not anything like what most New Yorkers think Jersey is.

We used to go to Jenny Jump state park--some beautiful lakes, trails, even some moderate hiking. There's also a nice basin/valley in that area that is fun to drive around and get nice photos.

All that, I would never live/buy in NJ. Probably one of the must fuct up housing markets, 'cause the roads are stupid and the taxes are high, and I'm not sure why you'd overspend on a house for those kinds of privileges.

Incidentally, the taxes are so high because in NJ, each boro pretty much 100% funds their own public schools and most of their police. In other words, NJ's system localized the burden of government funding much more so than most other states. Property taxes have become the main source of that local funding. And I assure you, they will go up more than usual as they continue to have shortfalls, and that's the primary way to continue funding local services.

NJ taxes are so high mainly because there are 568 governments in the very small state, each with it's own services. Polices, fire, schools, pensions, administration, courts etc., etc. are duplicated over and over again. This is a result of a very bad change in the constitution in 1875 that provided for creating new governments almost at random. Whenever a group of people disagreed with the policies of their existing government they were more or less free to break away and create a new one. So they did, a lot.

It's a disaster from a financial point of view to have for example 70 police forces covering a small area (250 sq miles) like bergen county that you can drive through in any direction in 15 minutes.

NJ taxes are also high because certain public workers are way overpaid. And contrary to the propaganda you may have heartd on Fox News or from Chris Christie, it's NOT teachers. It's actually the cops. In several towns, cop pay is close to $120k a year.

And despite the insane cop pay, there is an unwritten rule here that you do not talk about it. NEVER. Someone my neighbor knows once spoke about cop pay to a local reporter, and she got threatening phone calls at 2 in the morning.

The median salary for municipal police in Bergen County, $109,700, was 60 percent higher than the median salary in Salem County, $68,792, the lowest in the state. (For reference, that’s higher than the median salary for all teachers in the state, $57,467.)

In Bergen County, 59 of 68 towns have median police salaries above $100,000. The highest median pay in the state was $134,132 in Rochelle Park, where 19 cops patrol a one-square-mile borough near the intersection of the Garden State Parkway and Route 80.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/09/nj_police_salaries_rank_highes.html

But yet the NJ Republicans think that the teacher's union is single handedly bankrupting the state.