patrick.net

@TechGrommit

Good post here!

I was in Egypt last year BTW.

cheers.

You would be right, but this isn't a protest, it's a waiting game.
I think the idea is, they aren't going home until he steps down.

The other problem is that the police and military tend to think twice before firing on their own brothers and sisters. And if you lose them, then you're done.

tatupu70 says

The other problem is that the police and military tend to think twice before firing on their own brothers and sisters. And if you lose them, then you’re done.

Mercenaries then, this way the government can claim they didn't authorize violence. American Mercenaries so much the better.

P.S. What good is the police or Army if they will not kill people for you. "To Serve and Protect." is there motto, To Serve the Ruling people in Power and Protect them as well.

TechGromit,

Are you serious? Is this truly what you would do?

What is up with Obama and Hillary publically jumping ugly on Mubarak? An substantive ally in a treacherous area. This is a blunder of huge proportion. What Obama should have done was flown down to Egypt to talk privately with Mubarak and said nothing publically. He should have urged Mubarak to lay the groundwork for a contstitution similar to ours.

He should have urged Mubarak to to appoint a cross section of leaders that would write this constitution. After the constitution is written elections should be held with independent international observers on hand. Mubarak should be able to stay on only as a figurehead with no power if he chooses.

In not doing these things Obama has telegraphed to his allies in the mideast that he is a fair weather friend. Why should these allies trust him? I wouldn't. Have not we learned our lesson from Iran? Apparently not.

"If I was in charge, I’d give them until sun down to disperse, after that, police and military shoot to kill."

Ah, yes, don't bother arresting anybody. Just kill them.

That would actually make your country fall apart even faster, as your security forces split into two camps.

You talk a tough game, but I don't think what you've got what it takes to be an actual tyrant.

brucebruce says

What is up with Obama and Hillary publically jumping ugly on Mubarak? An substantive ally in a treacherous area. This is a blunder of huge proportion. What Obama should have done.....

You act like it's up to the USA. It's not. If they though Mubarak would retain power, they probably would have backed him publicly, and that's what it looked like at first. But they're not going to send in forces or anything, that's for sure.

If he's forced out, and the US was still backing him, the US loses in every respect, and that's why the switch.

BTW, for anybody interested in the politics of Egypt and the region, Fresh Air on NPR Feb. 2 is a must listen.

frodo says

TechGromit,
Are you serious? Is this truly what you would do?

Yes, sometimes you have to take a stand or they will walk all over you. As the point in case several police stations burned to the ground and the national museum was damaged. At what point is it OK to shoot people? When they burn a quarter of the city to the ground? Half? Also I wonder how long they can keep this up. With the general strike the amount of food coming into the city has been extremely limited. Most stores remain closed. Even fuel is in short supply. Banks are closed leaving even those with money no way to obtain it. If your not able to go to work, you have no income coming it. Face it, if the banks and supermarkets closed in America tomorrow, how long could you last with whats in your frig and pantry? The Citizens in Cairo face the very real possibility of starving to death if the "revolution" drags on any length of time.

IMO, Obama, Hillary, and others should have just said nothing and broke out the popcorn.

TechGromit says

Yes, sometimes you have to take a stand or they will walk all over you.

beaten up too much in the sandbox?... does it make you feel tough to write things like that?.. I find it interesting how support for violent political suppression is so often expressed by the people who also scream the loudest about personal freedoms...

There's no indication that things will fall apart in Egypt if the dictators give up and 'pass power' - things are going quite well in Tunisia after a similar occurrence last month. The leaders of the Egyptian movement seem well organized connected and by all indications any absolute statements saying there will be chaos are simply an attempt to shut down the protest. In fact all indications point to the current rounds of chaos as being orchestrated by the gov...

here're a couple of interesting articles:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27411.htm
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/egypt-exchanging-dictator-torturer?

I'm pretty sure Hillary and Obama have had many confidential calls with him, and they're publicly voicing those opinions in generalized "We support a democratic Egypt" way.

kentm says

beaten up too much in the sandbox?… does it make you feel tough to write things like that?.. I find it interesting how support for violent political suppression is so often expressed by the people who also scream the loudest about personal freedoms…

Fine, your Mubarak and in charge kentm, what would you do? Step down from power and give into the mobs "revolutionist"demands. Who do you put in charge? The army? Some randomly selected government official. I'm sure anyone you hand picked they would have a problem with. Military commanders aren't much better, if Iraq taught the United States anything, military commanders make rotten governors. Put some mob leader in charge? What do they know about running government, things could get worse, a lot worse. If you (Mubarak) has done anything for Egypt, it was give it a stable government for the last 30 years. I'm sure more than a few Iraq's miss the good old days of Saddam Hussein, sure he was a ruthless dictator, but he kept the country nice and stable despite many radical groups and influences. At least you didn't have to worry about getting blown up on your way to the market. I highly doubt anyone replacing you (Mubarak) will make everyone happy. The situation could easily dissolve into civil war or another Iraq, where radicals fundamentals operate with immunity. (and blow up people on there way to the market to make a statement)

So what's your solution? Mine is crush the rebellion, despite being hundreds of thousands strong, I don't think they represent all of Egypt. Democracy for Egypt? I've seen democracy at work in Iraq, I'll take a dictator over that any day of the week for a middle eastern country.

Certainly the Sunnis (a minority in Iraq) wish that Saddam were back. I am not sure if the other groups are really that much happier now either--but what do I know I haven't been there.

The more you tighten your grip, TechGrommit, the more arab nations will slip through your fingers.

TechGromit says

I’ve seen democracy at work in Iraq

Actually, you haven't

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/19/international/worldspecial/19NAJA.html

We fucked that occupation up early & often.

@Troy

>The more you tighten your grip, TechGrommit, the more arab nations will slip through your fingers.

A fellow Star Wars fan (Princess Leia said something like that to Tarkin).

I have been inspired! :-)

Troy says

We fucked that occupation up early & often.

I read, "The Green Zone", and I highly doubt Saddam could have done a worst job governing. If a half way competent governor was appointed from day one, we would have been out of there years earlier, at a fraction of the cost, and the country would now be fairly stable now. As I said before, military commanders make lousy governors.

Well Mubarak came directly from the airforce and he ruled with an iron fist for 30 years.

I was in Egypt last year at this time. I saw first hand what Mubarak's martial law was like. You had to pass through military check points every few miles on highways where police with machine guns asked for bribes to allow you to pass. Just standing around in lines waiting to see major world heritage sites you could be asked for a bribe.

Even with all off this "security" around our tour operator found it necessary to have an armed guard accompany us everywhere. In Sinai were were accompanied by jeeps filled with men armed with machine guns as we drove from Sharm El Sheikh to St. Catherine's Monestary.

The people of Egypt are split into haves and have nots. The have nots live in deplorable conditions that remind me of the conditions seen in "Save the Children" charity commercials.

Even in the midst of grinding poverty and major oppression, the Egyptians were very friendly and warm to us.

I made a friend there who I still can't reach. I hope he's ok since he's one of the "haves" who's home could have been plundered. He is a major Egyptologist. He and his wife run a catering business out of their home and host weddings. They also have a young daughter. I hope they are ok. Communications are still unreliable. When I finally got through over the telephone I got a scared male Egyptian youth who spoke very broken English who was afraid to talk because phone calls are widely monitored by the government. Others have told me that sometimes when you call there now you may get patched through to the wrong phone because communications are still spotty. I hope I can reach my friend soon.

I have another friend with whom I went to school who is currently in the Sinai. She's a dual American - Jordanian citizen. She's from Amman and I visited her in Amman last year on the same trip. She finally was able to answer my email asking her if she was safe since I thought she was still in Jordan where her mother was part of the Cabinet that was fired by the King of Jordan due to anti-government protests there. To find out that she was hiding in the Sinai trying to make it to St. Catherine's Monestary was horrifying. I haven't heard whether or not she made it to St. Catherine's to relative safety. She was in the Sinai on one of her women's spirituality retreats that she leads as the strife in Egypt started.

Egypt and Egyptians are among the more moderate people in the region. They don't want an Islamist Fundamentalist State. The Muslim Brotherhood is not interested in establishing a fundamentalist islamic state. Egyptians want secular democracy. They are fed up with Mubarak's oppression. Egypt is not Iraq or Iran. The people of Egypt are very different culturally and politically.

Now that the army has the power and Mubarak stepped down, we shall see what happens. After having been to Egypt and getting to know some Egyptians, my bet is that the Egyptian people will end up as a free people with a stable and representative government that is secular.

TechGromit says

I read, “The Green Zone”, and I highly doubt Saddam could have done a worst job governing

Do you mean "Imperial Life in the Emerald City?" If so, I agree. But it would have been an awesome place to get a job and pay off all college debt. Unfortunatley, I'm a raging diehard liberal democratic social worker...

@simchaland

I was also in Egypt , but last September. I agree mainly..just I wonder if the people wanting bribes wouldn't have their hnd out no matter who is in power.

Anyway, I hope your friends are OK. Let me know if you hear from them. Cheers.

"If I was in charge, I’d give them until sun down to disperse, after that, police and military shoot to kill."

Did it ever occur to you that it's precisely this mentality the younger generation has decided it no longer wants to live under? The older generation may have tolerated it out of fear for the past 30 years because they felt they had no alternative, but these young people have decided they want something better. With today's technology, tyranny can no longer be hidden from the rest of the world.

TechGromit says

frodo says

TechGromit,
Are you serious? Is this truly what you would do?

Yes, sometimes you have to take a stand or they will walk all over you.

A stand for what? Evil? Oppression? More Gold? God, shesh all in heaven and on earth! Are you fucking mad?

As the point in case several police stations burned to the ground and the national museum was damaged.

Police stations? No dear not the executive of the oppresive regime. . . Why would rebels make sure the police stations are in tact? These have been the primary source of the oppression! God not the police!

At what point is it OK to shoot people?

NEVER!; Without the authority of the people, the man was striped of this when the massive protests began. The emperor has no clothes.

When they burn a quarter of the city to the ground? Half? Also I wonder how long they can keep this up. With the general strike the amount of food coming into the city has been extremely limited. [...] The Citizens in Cairo face the very real possibility of starving to death if the “revolution” drags on any length of time.

Give me liberty, or give me death.

why is it ok for the Egytians to throw off a tyrant and his underlings that impose laws the majority of the people do not want or like, but it is wrong for Az or Ca or anyone that don't like ObamaCare?

Bap33 says

why is it ok for the Egytians to throw off a tyrant and his underlings that impose laws the majority of the people do not want or like, but it is wrong for Az or Ca or anyone that don’t like ObamaCare?

Because, that's their business? lol.

Bap33 says

why is it ok for the Egytians to throw off a tyrant and his underlings that impose laws the majority of the people do not want or like, but it is wrong for Az or Ca or anyone that don’t like ObamaCare?

Tell ya what, Bapman, I'll let you in on a little secret.

Shhhhhhhh. . .

You can.