patrick.net

If your mother in law is making in 2011 what a Senior Clerk Typist made in 2001, then she's right and you're wrong. If that's the case, then inflation has eaten about half of what she's gained by earning promotions. She has far less buying power than her peers of 2001 would have had in spite of (presumably) having attained that level of skill.

On the other hand: it's possible that inflation has been getting baked into promotion budgets on-the-sly. If that's the case, then Senior Clerk Typists would have been making about $45k in 2001 --that's about what $57k in 2011 dollars was worth back then.

I suspect the truth may be somewhere in-between and lost in the details. Her benefits might not have been eroding at the same pace as the rest of the worfkorce. In any event, there's really not really enough information to conclude whether or not I should be backing your outrage.

However: there's a somewhat nasty undertone to your post that suggests that working in the public sector morally or otherwise disqualifies someone from improving their earning potential. Public servants aren't indentured, which is the kind of arrangement you'd need to lock in wages at entry-level without inducing high turnover. I'm guessing your mother-in-law is at least forty. She's gained numerous promotions in the last ten years, which seems fast to go from entry-level to a senior position, even (especially?) for clerical work. That's likely the apex of her job ladder and she's now making about a median income in middle age (or later) for somewhat dated but basically skilled work. If so, her buying power will decline going forward without COLA. Relative cost-of-living for her area is left for us to guess --is this the Bay Area?

I'm trying to figure out how outraged I should be.

Clarence 13X says

“Ohh, I wasnt making anything…only about 35k”. So then I asked her well if you started at 35K and are now at 57K you have received a 22K increase in salary over the past 10 years. To which she negatively replied, “Ohh no, I had to apply for new roles within the city to get those increases!!!!”

I think it's what msilenus first suggested. A senior typist 10 years ago, probably made what she makes now, and that is what she meant.

You seem like someone who confuses envy (of some public workers for whatever reason) with legitimate criticism. I guess since you aren't a government worked it's impossible for you to have any empathy and understanding.

Clarence 13X says

and how arrogant they are with their rights as a worker

Clarence 13X says

18 years ago I was a security guard, and guess what I wanted more money so I took my arse to college. This isnt the only path to a better life, just my path….some developed a trade, started a business, etc.

Actually this is classic ego (arrogance). "She shouldn't have worked hard in a job, bettering herself, earning promotions, she should have done what 'I did' and gone back to college."

Of course nearly everyone has issues with their mother inlaw. Maybe these "feelings" are really about something else.

A good friend of mine, who has two daughters going into education. They just finished school and are taken back by all of the political backlash over educators claw back of pay. Rick Scott has ruined it for Florida teachers, he said, why should they go into education now?

Now mind these are the same people like most Patneters, that think Oil should be $500 a barrel because they can't stand the thought of Texas Oil men like Bush making money off Oil. So if they also think if Oil got overly politicized and got so prohibitively expensive, then the Dumb asses that don't know better will stop driving and in a petty round about way, would take money from those Evil Texas Oil men pockets.

Not ever once thinking about the poor dumb ass saps just muddling along trying to make ends meet JUST BARELY with $30 a barrel oil. Or stopping to think for a minute how tightly the Price of Oil is to the sticker price at the retail store as well as the Grocery store.

SO for the Joe the Factory worker who's pay check is only going a 1/4 as far as it used to go.
He doesn't give two shits that teachers pay have been politicized in a tit for tat, you do this, and we do that, tug of war. All he knows is gas is getting out of hand and there is no policy to protect their well being and guarantee dinner on the table every night. Joe's a little busy right now worrying about where his next damn meal is going to come from. So excuse him if he doesn't share in the public unions feelings or entitlement.

But this is our political system at work, nothings getting done, just petty misguided finger pointing.

But if Oil was not topping $100 and the Left wasn't hell bent on $500 Oil(and $1,000 cart load of groceries), then I don't think we would have heard of Bell California this year. 500K pensions and Union Collective bargaining would be so far under the radar of what is important for most American people, no one would even know.

Tenouncetrout says

He doesn’t give two shits that teachers pay have been politicized in a tit for tat, you do this, and we do that, tug of war

Not sure what "you do this, we do that" would be.

Is it, "you concede our continuing tax cuts for the rich, and we go on a fuck the teachers spree ?"

I can't find the tit for tat. Seems more like tat followed by more tat.

Know wut I'm sayin,... Tot ?

Clarence 13X says

some developed a trade, started a business, etc. My key point is that I along with many others sought out the opportunity to increase my earning potential and ability to take advantage of capatilistic opportunities here in America.

So trade unions are okay ? I went back to school and studied Math, all the way up to a Masters degree (already had a *bs degree in business). Whatever job people do, they either first go to school, vocational school, or they learn on the job with an apprenticeship, or other on the job progression. All union jobs fit this. The only thing excluded for the most part from union jobs would be the more entrepreneurial type of path.

(leaving it to you to decide whether the bs stands for bachelor of science or something else)

Government stories:
----------------------------
Story #1:
My wife used to work as an intern for the city, doing clerical work. She completely hated it. She would get more work done than 3 clerical employees. The city full time employees didn't do much work, mainly complained about being underpaid while often drinking on the job and going to strip bars. But they all had a snobby attitude of "we are better than you because we work for the government and you are an intern."

Story #2:
My mother worked for a few days for a government program that is supposed to help single mothers, as an intern as well (it was for educational credits). That place had 8 office workers and they saw about 1 client a day for 30 minutes. For the rest of the time no one did a thing, yet they complained about how they were overworked.

Story #3:
We had a job opening and this fellow (of Indian descent) applied for the job. He was a programmer for a county of Ventura. He expected a 95k salary and benefits. And we would have hired him if he was good, the only problem is that he didn't know anything outside some basic usage of programming tools. I was surprised he even had a job, and even more surprised he was paid a lot. Because entry level programmers knew a lot more than this man.

What I've seen in government workers often is the attitude of "Get a comfy government job where you can't be fired and you are set for life without ever lifting a finger." It is very common. Private sector has it's issues too and a lot, but being lazy isn't promoted and gets filtered out quickly due to the nature of competitiveness in the market.

P.S. 57k salary for typing notes is a lot, your mother should feel lucky.

This is the most ignorant post I have ever read. A promotion is not the same thing as a COL increase. They are two totally different things. If your going to bash unions, get your facts right.

I assume the union workers who did the work at your office were private secotr workers. So if they were private sector workers and your tax dollars are not paying a dime of their salaries, why do you give a rat's butt about them? If they make double or triple what you make, that is NONE of your business.

A union worker, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO are sitting at a table.
In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it.
The CEO reaches across the table, takes 11 cookies, looks at the Tea Partier and says: "Look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie."

How about some private company stories? Some executive suite stories?

Do you really think that lazy and sleazy people only exist in government jobs? Think again.

justme says

How about some private company stories? Some executive suite stories?
Do you really think that lazy and sleazy people only exist in government jobs? Think again.

I don't think anyone says sleaziness is one sided. In my post I pointed out that problems exist on both sides. In public sector there is however perpetual unconcerningly comatose mentality that is widespread. A mentality of entitlements to other peoples money and complete disregard for public welfare.

There are employees that care about public service, but there are also many (too many) of the other afore mentioned types.

As I mentioned private sector has their own pitfalls, but perpetual laziness filters out incredibly fast.

Which movie was it where Jim Carrey's ass talks ? Was it Ace Ventura ? That was some funny stuff.

msilenus says

However: there’s a somewhat nasty undertone to your post that suggests that working in the public sector morally or otherwise disqualifies someone from improving their earning potential. Public servants aren’t indentured, which is the kind of arrangement you’d need to lock in wages at entry-level without inducing high turnover. I’m guessing your mother-in-law is at least forty. She’s gained numerous promotions in the last ten years, which seems fast to go from entry-level to a senior position, even (especially?) for clerical work. That’s likely the apex of her job ladder and she’s now making about a median income in middle age (or later) for somewhat dated but basically skilled work. If so, her buying power will decline going forward without COLA. Relative cost-of-living for her area is left for us to guess –is this the Bay Area?
I’m trying to figure out how outraged I should be.

Dont be too outraged, I am one of those guys who is pissed at the fact that someone as successful as her without a college degree would even complain. Its the same ol' story all across America...even with our teachers whom have 3 mos off during the summer months. Sorry for the undertone, but I am pissed....pissed at all the union workers who are lazy enough not to go to college like I did yet they live the same priviledged life as I do but complain all the time about how they want more.

I go to school or obtain a skill specific certification when I want more but they simply try to hold companies hostage. I think somewhere in between all the outrage on both sides lies the truth.

marcus says

Actually this is classic ego (arrogance). “She shouldn’t have worked hard in a job, bettering herself, earning promotions, she should have done what ‘I did’ and gone back to college.”

You have a point, but that is not the message I am looking to send. She shouldnt complain about not getting an increase in 10 years when she did in fact gain a 22k increase. Classic union worker mentality is that they complain about how screwed up everything is and refuse to educate themselves.

She didnt work hard, she simply applied for another job and got better wages. Good points though...I cant fully articulate it without holding a conversation in person.

ChrisLA says

What I’ve seen in government workers often is the attitude of “Get a comfy government job where you can’t be fired and you are set for life without ever lifting a finger.” It is very common. Private sector has it’s issues too and a lot, but being lazy isn’t promoted and gets filtered out quickly due to the nature of competitiveness in the market.

Bingo!!!!!!!! That is where I am coming from...they sit, wait and complain. I will share my next story.

HousingWatcher says

This is the most ignorant post I have ever read. A promotion is not the same thing as a COL increase. They are two totally different things. If your going to bash unions, get your facts right.

Either way she got the increase that she was looking for so why complain. I hadnt had a COLA in 5 years prior to my current job of 3 years, however, I increased my salary by 40k over those 5 years by applying to new roles.

Should I complain about how terrible life is, was or can be without a COLA?

HousingWatcher says

A union worker, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO are sitting at a table.
In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it.
The CEO reaches across the table, takes 11 cookies, looks at the Tea Partier and says: “Look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie.”

LMAO....great comedy. Love the snarky tone to it...that about sums up what we are facing. I still wont complain as the opportunity is out there to get 11 cookies at another company by leaving the company where there is only 1 cookie available. Also, you and I can get access to 250 cookies by broadening our horizon's and searching for national openings where they offer more compensation.

shrekgrinch says

So I will spell this out for the union-types as succinctly as I can: The reason unions have problems with non-union folks is because the union folk live on a completely different planet that makes them come across as arrogant, spoiled children to the non-union folks

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!!!!....another blow struck by the hammer.

Zlxr says

Shrek - Just because you are pissed off at an arrogant few - imagine how you would feel if your new boss comes in and tells you that you can’t have paid sick leave and no paid vacations and you’ll be fired if you dare to leave work to pick up your child. Or maybe your children and grandchildren will not get time off to take you to the hospital when you’re ready to kick the bucket.

Now, speaking for CA this is against the law as you have to make reasonable accomodations for these exact purposes. These are laws the unions of the 20s, 30s, and 40s fought for and it is well appreciated. I cant speak for Alabama, Tennessee and Texas laws.

ChrisLA says

comfy government job where you can’t be fired and you are set for life without ever lifting a finger

Can't argue with this. We all know that's what really goes on with those union govt jobs, right ? No accountability, slacking off all day long. Yep that sums it up pretty well.

ChrisLA for President !!

Zlxr says

I figure Shrek is around 85 years old and his recollection of being babysat was being tied to the bedpost or locked in the closet while the parents were out slaving away. Which is why he doesn’t give a shit about anyone who has it better than he did.

I dont see the spin on what he said as being either good or bad...what did you read into this?

Zlxr says

Gov’t workers have to pay for mandatory medical coverage and retirement and Fed income tax and in CA there is a state income tax and then there is Social Security. It takes quite a chunk out of earnings. Then the local Governments borrow from the retirement funds to cover the cost of living increases and stuff and blame the retirement programs when they run out of money.

I agree 100% that we are probably taxed around 38-42% in real earnings.

Clarence 13X says

She didnt work hard, she simply applied for another job and got better wages.

And you know she didn't work hard how ?

Many jobs start at a relatively low pay, and if you have skills and an ability to learn and work hard your pay goes up a lot in a short time. That's how the corporate world works, and I am speaking from experience. I got a 25K raise in two years in a software company I worked for back in 2000. That was because I took a low pay to get in the door, and my pay went up a lot when I worked hard and showed how I could progress.

Your view of your mother inlaw is highly biased. You actually have no willingness to consider that she may be good at what she does.

It's quite natural to set up pay structures so that it's low when you come in, but if you can perform it goes up pretty quickly (although 22k in 10 years isn't that great). Her complaint is that people doing exactly the same job she does were paid the same as she is 10 years ago. This makes sense. And basically you are wrong to frame it the way you are, at least in my opinion.

Here is my story, non union though:

I worked 3 years ago for the county delivering a Windows 2000 project about 10 years ago. As a consultant I was to deploy 1500 desktop computer upgrades to all the county employees. Generally, our mornings were very slow with not much work being performed. Plus, the processes we put in place stretched out the project by 2 years allowing us to earn top dollar for far longer. While the consultants did all the work, generallly, the non-union employees who managed us did nothing on their computers all day. We were all really bored actually as we had scoped out the entire project the first 3 mos of its initiation and the remaining 2 years were spent deploying about 50 computers per week. We had a team of 5 individuals so it came out to be about 10 computers per week per consultant. All this work was being performed at a rate of $150/hour. For about 4 of the 5 days I was bored out of my mind. One day I asked why so many of the employees were sitting around and why there were so many of them. I was told that the department revenues were extremely high and no one wanted to risk losing the funds that were brought in by downsizing the group. I am not for downsizing this specific department (which i wont name) as its services paid for the salaries and it was a profit center for the city, state, etc.

This was the scene I witnessed first hand in almost every department. With 1500 employees simply sitting around to do 1 or 2 things per week I was extremely put off by the complaints of both the union and non-union employees who were ranking in millions off pensions funded by tax dollars.

YES, there are good hard working union employees but half the time the job descriptions just dont allocate for them to do much outside of warm a seat IMO. Private organizations cannot afford to do this as they are not funded on the tax payer dime.

With all the federal laws protecting workers and all the waste invested into federal, state and city pensions I cannot support any of these groups any longer whether union or non union.

To hear about a union striking over negotiations to lower a companies costs is insane to me, but if I were to hear a story about a union striking over an employee who was fired for having children I would be all onboard for the strike.

Most of what we hear is of unions striking over lost pensions that are partly funded by tax payer dollars.

justme says

How about some private company stories? Some executive suite stories?
Do you really think that lazy and sleazy people only exist in government jobs? Think again.

Start another post and we will gladly share our stories there. I am not saying corruption and greed only exist in union environments. Do it, start a post...

ChrisLA says

As I mentioned private sector has their own pitfalls, but perpetual laziness filters out incredibly fast.

You will get put on a PIP unless you work for the union....who will come in and tell the HR department the manager did not follow proper protocol in documenting your situation.

marcus says

It’s quite natural to set up pay structures so that it’s low when you come in, but if you can perform it goes up pretty quickly (although 22k in 10 years isn’t that great). Her complaint is that people doing exactly the same job she does were paid the same as she is 10 years ago. This makes sense. And basically you are wrong to frame it the way you are, at least in my opinion.

Exactly how much do you expect a motherlovin assistant to get paid with an high school education? 45k, 55k, 75k, 85K?

My 20 year old niece can do this job. Although, it is effortless and thankless. Being an assistant requires only entry level skills (Word, Excel, Powerpoint) with a great amount of organization and responsibility. Paying an assistant as much as a professional is silly IMO.

marcus says

Many jobs start at a relatively low pay, and if you have skills and an ability to learn and work hard your pay goes up a lot in a short time. That’s how the corporate world works, and I am speaking from experience. I got a 25K raise in two years in a software company I worked for back in 2000. That was because I took a low pay to get in the door, and my pay went up a lot when I worked hard and showed how I could progress.

But did you complain about not getting a motherlovin COLA? Or about how your pensions were no longer being funded by tax payers?

Hell, I guess this is a moot point for some. The IT Industry is being outsourced to India, Mexico, Canada right now. We complain about how the jobs are leaving and the wages are going overseas leaving us with contract positions, no benefits. We have put a lot of effort into certifications and degrees that built up high level skills. All she did was learn how to use a motherlovin computer and sit on her toosh.

It's nice to see intelligent comments mixed in every now and then.

ChrisLA says

A mentality of entitlements to other peoples money and complete disregard for public welfare.

That sounds like a description of Wall St, not a description of public employees.

marcus says

I believe in Unions in the sense that there should be rights regarding sick leave and vacations and working conditions. I also believe there should be equal pay for equal work.

Answer my question, did you complain about not getting a COLA after you increased your salary 25%?....I think that was a fair question.

Zlxr says

In some offices the clerks basically sit right next to nurses, doctors or lawyers who are supposed to be reviewing stuff and making decisions according to the Gov’t mandates for that particular program. Eventually - the clerk learns enough to make those same decisions and many times the work is passed off onto them. So here you have a nurse making $85,000 and a clerk who now understands how to do most of the work making $36,000 and of course the clerk feels shorted. The clerk may not have a college degree - but they often end up acquiring alot of medical or legal knowledge just from working around it, typing the reports and asking questions.

Good point, I failed to realize this viewpoint in my rants. I think this has a lot to do with why so many complain....in both private and public sectors. I digress on my views a bit.

Zlxr says

So without a Union at all —– just who do you think the Gov’t is going to hire with your Tax Dollars? And if they aren’t saving money now - how do you expect them to save money once they get rid of Unions????

Good point, they will probably start hiring all their relatives creating an environment free to competition for the jobs we all apply for. I have seen this many times where husband and wife teams bring in friends and family. But this goes on in all orgs.

Clarence 13X says

marcus says

It’s quite natural to set up pay structures so that it’s low when you come in, but if you can perform it goes up pretty quickly (although 22k in 10 years isn’t that great). Her complaint is that people doing exactly the same job she does were paid the same as she is 10 years ago. This makes sense. And basically you are wrong to frame it the way you are, at least in my opinion.

Exactly how much do you expect a motherlovin assistant to get paid with an high school education? 45k, 55k, 75k, 85K?
My 20 year old niece can do this job. Although, it is effortless and thankless. Being an assistant requires only entry level skills (Word, Excel, Powerpoint) with a great amount of organization and responsibility. Paying an assistant as much as a professional is silly IMO.

Answer this one to Mr. Marcus....your not the only one here with intelligence.

Clarence 13X says

your not the only one here with intelligence

I know that. I understand that you're rated genius level on some IQ test. That puts you above me, because I don't consider myself a genius.

But I recognize intelligence when I see it, and zlxr's comments above are the most intelligent addition to this thread.

I don't know Clarence. IT just sounds to me like you have major issues. Sometimes assistants and clerical people gain a lot of institutional knowledge in their field and experience in how specialized tasks are done. The reason why this sounds so weird to me is that I don't understand how you can know so much about how easy your mother inlaws job is.

So you say that after all of her promotions, it's still just an entry level job. I just don't know. Her pay seems very reasonable to me. 57K, 10 years in to a job, depending on the city isn't all that high. But in any case, I'm not that fascinated by the topic of trying to figure out how difficult or how overpaid your mother inlaw is or isn't.

Maybe it's the title of "assistant" that is confusing you. There are many people with that title in the corporate world making 6 figure salaries, 150K or more, and earning it. Some of them don't have college degrees.

marcus says

But I recognize intelligence when I see it, and zlxr’s comments above are the most intelligent addition to this thread.

Yes, he used a very tactful approach in his answer.

marcus says

I don’t know Clarence. IT just sounds to me like you have major issues. Sometimes assistants and clerical people gain a lot of institutional knowledge in their field and experience in how specialized tasks are done. The reason why this sounds so weird to me is that I don’t understand how you can know so much about how easy your mother inlaws job is.

I posted this piece to get different viewpoints, not to proclaim how smart I am. My frustration is with the fact that here is a person that has obviously worked their way up the ladder whom is still aggrivated with their pay scale. If she wanted to make 100k/year she is probably in the wrong field as 57K is at the mid to high end of the scale for assistants.

Please, when responding to me keep the insults to yourself...thats not my style any longer. I am not looking to come here to berade or engage in unnecessary banter. I was looking to learn from your viewpoints.

marcus says

Maybe it’s the title of “assistant” that is confusing you. There are many people with that title in the corporate world making 6 figure salaries, 150K or more, and earning it. Some of them don’t have college degrees.

These are possibilities that are slim and few for assistants. These type of assistants are actually capable of handling multiple large scale projects, hold degrees and can run a fortune 500 company while the boss is out.

My mother is law is not capable of any of that, she simply takes requests to transcribe meeting notes. She can get to that level by obtaining a higher level of education, which would open doors for her to apply for higher level assistant roles but I doubt anyone over the age of 50 is going to do that.