patrick.net

the work flow is not intuitive.

you have a clear idea in your head how things should work, but it's not clear to me.

it was a while back but i think i used the calculator, to run some calculation and some post automatically appeared in the address-forum somewhere. why? i didn't want this to happen so i deleted the post.

and the addresses forum(which was at http://patrick.net/addresses/) wasn't really obvious how to use it either.
there's a bunch of rows for address and price but how do i fill them out? am i suppose to fill them out?

i imagine i could have figured it out, but i didn't want to spend the time.

easiest thing to do is just write up a help document on how things work. that's the first step. so at least we know what's going on. then you can address if it provides value or not.

Well I have bought a house already, but when I was looking. The last thing I wanted is blasting on the internet the addresses it took me hours or days, of searching to find. It's bad enough bidding against ghost bidders that don't exist.

Or even the seller could see tangible interest on his property. He would be able to gauge if he would accept your offer or not. If there's a place where he could see real interest in his property then he'd more inclined to hold out for better offers.

I agree, it's not intuitive.

I was just hoping people would find it useful to be able to comment on specific addresses. That's all there is to it.

The rows for address and price are gone now. There are only comments, and a photo and map of the property at the bottom.

The calculator no longer creates comments. But neither do real people...

Tenouncetrout says

Well I have bought a house already, but when I was looking. The last thing I wanted is blasting on the internet the addresses it took me hours or days, of searching to find. It’s bad enough bidding against ghost bidders that don’t exist.

Or even the seller could see tangible interest on his property. He would be able to gauge if he would accept your offer or not. If there’s a place where he could see real interest in his property then he’d more inclined to hold out for better offers.

Good points. But this means there is no interest from either side in uncensored discussion of a property:

* The seller doesn't want anyone to be able to publicly say things he cannot censor. Like about the toxic waste dump nearby.
* The buyer doesn't want anyone to notice that he's interested in a certain address.

Would it help to limit the visibility of comments to, say, your Facebook friends or some other group you trust?

I think that making it more intuitive would help.

Another problem may be that there is not enough critical mass of users. There are tens of thousands of properties just in the bay area to comment on. There needs to be enough people interested in similar properties to get a good discussion going on any particular property. Also, how lively can a discussion on a property be? It just does not spark passion like other forum topics do.

I have commented from time to time on properties, but I am not actively looking to buy. Like others have mentioned I think I would keep my mouth shut about a property that I was planning on buying. However, in the search for property I think that I would be happy to comment on anything that I was taking a pass on.

Oh, I also do keep an eye for properties appearing in the Real Estate Forum in locations that I am interested in. Often there is no discussion on the property, and if there is I just don't have anything to add.

leoj707 says

There needs to be enough people interested in similar properties to get a good discussion going on any particular property.

Yes, I was thinking of setting a "default location" zip code for each user, kind of like Google maps does. Then they would see the comments in or near that zip code unless they specifically asked to see everywhere, or to change the zip code. Or maybe there should be a discussion page for each zip code instead of for each property?

leoj707 says

Also, how lively can a discussion on a property be? It just does not spark passion like other forum topics do.

True, a specific place for sale is just not that interesting to most people. It's mostly interesting to the seller, and the few people who might buy it.

I personally wouldn't talk about a property that I was truly interested in. I wouldn't want to potentially give out my future address on the internet. Maybe you should give the op an option to completely remove the thread should their purchase become successful.

vain says

I personally wouldn’t talk about a property that I was truly interested in.

+1

if i'm interested in buying anything a house, car, or whatever i'm not going to tell anyone before i buy.

i've seen lots of guys asking about motorcycles for sale (on a motorcycle forum) and someone buys it out from under them.

Don't want people knowing where I am or what I'm up to.
If I ever do buy... I may post the details after the fact.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

Don’t want people knowing where I am

are you on the east-coast?

I used to post about good deals that Id find but now I feel bad because posting that on a public forum might end up screwing up someone else's deal.

I love the property forum. I don't really think that people looking at a property is going to magically drive the price up. I think the price is the price. Just because a bunch of people look and comment isn't going to magically generate qualified buyers, or dumb buyers, for that matter.

For me, I am a creature of habit. Changes always take me a while to get used to. I liked it when the craigslist links showed up. I think the redfin links were there, too sometimes. I am just figuring out the new format. Somehow it seems like there are more steps now.

. In truth, I am year or two away from buying. Maybe I would post less when I really was closer to buying.

you need an app where people can write things about the place as they are checking it out in an open house

Yeah, I think most people do not want to chat about their best prospects/finds.

They might talk about specifc overpriced McSh*tboxes, though, to send a message to the seller that he price is ridiculous.

Patrick, I realize that you're from California, but the California-centrism of this board can be a little off-putting on an internet site visible to the entire world. Fully 88% (44 of 50) of the properties listed on the first five pages of the Real Estate Forum are in California, and every single one of the first 20 pages of that forum is at least half California listings.

It is frustrating enough when Bay Area people talk about individual neighborhoods as if people from the remaining 99% of the country have any idea where they are or even that they exist. For everyone other than Bay Areans, "Menlo Park" is the district in New Jersey where Thomas Edison invented a bunch of stuff, and "Concord" is in Massachusetts; you know, shot heard round the world, one if by land, two if by sea, etc.

Ideally, other cities and states would also be popular enough to have their own sections, but one thing you could do now would be to change "Real Estate" to "California Real Estate", because that's basically what that forum is. As LeoJ has mentioned, you need a critical mass of people who have at least a mild familiarity with any given property or the neighborhood it's in. I don't think this can work except in ultra-high-density urban areas, where there's a high probability that someone visiting the forum knows the area (even if they aren't familiar with the specific property) or has at least heard of it.

If you posted about properties within walking distance of the Giants' new ballpark, for example, I'd be interested, because I've seen that area on TV even if I haven't been there, and it has its own attraction even if I've never considered living there before. But random properties in a state many forum visitors have never been to just aren't interesting. On a subforum not specifically labeled "California", they're actually worse than uninteresting -- they make us non-Californians feel that we're not welcome here.

I use the real estate forum quite a bit. Like others said, I feel like if I find a good deal then I dont want to announce it. Kind of hypocrytical I guess to want the info & free advice but not compelled to offer any in return.

justme says

Yeah, I think most people do not want to chat about their best prospects/finds.
They might talk about specifc overpriced McSh*tboxes, though, to send a message to the seller that he price is ridiculous.

I totally agree with this.

Michinaga says

Patrick, I realize that you’re from California, but the California-centrism of this board can be a little off-putting on an internet site visible to the entire world. Fully 88% (44 of 50) of the properties listed on the first five pages of the Real Estate Forum are in California, and every single one of the first 20 pages of that forum is at least half California listings.

I agree with Michinaga - I recently bought and while I find this site and its forums interesting, it was useless as far as my property search went because I am far from California.
Remember that housing is the ultimate local market, i.e the talk about it being a terrible time to buy, housing prices dropping, etc. is all very location specific - the area I live in, prices never boomed, they never busted, instead they have slowly went up over time and are still going up.
It also makes virtually any part of the country expensive by comparison!
Chemechie

vain says

justme says

Yeah, I think most people do not want to chat about their best prospects/finds.

They might talk about specifc overpriced McSh*tboxes, though, to send a message to the seller that he price is ridiculous.

I totally agree with this.

Same.

I'm not even sure how that forum works. Am I supposed to Google the address that someone puts in? Color me dense I guess ;-)

I really think the prices have a lot of folks priced out from their comfort level, which is why demand is low.

Also it is not very informative, there isn't a enough data to help someone get interested in the property yet. Google link took me to some other lost page.

PasadenaNative says

I’m not even sure how that forum works. Am I supposed to Google the address that someone puts in? Color me dense I guess

PasadenaNative, you just have to search for the address in question in this format (or possibly others): 123 Main St 90210 (zipcode). It will bring you to a page that displays existing discussion (if any). If there isn't any, you can comment on it and you'd be the topic starter.

The bottom shows the street view, and a satellite view. It beats wasting gas to go drive by the property to see if you are even interested.

Anyway to create a patrick.net facebook functionality? plug ins ? ARe they the devil?

I agree with the comment where we need critical mass to start chatting/posting comments about a particular property.

Overall I see the vision and I think its a great idea. We have the forum, keep it running. And as the popularity grows, we should see more and more users getting interested and maybe changing their minds about publishing their opinions/facts about the listed properties.

Transparency in dealing with property sales is going to be a bit of a paradigm shift for more people, but it will happen, with time.

I will post. Just waiting for the prices in SoCal to get in line with income :)

Yes, I was thinking of setting a “default location” zip code for each user, kind of like Google maps does. Then they would see the comments in or near that zip code unless they specifically asked to see everywhere, or to change the zip code.

The area I keep an eye on covers multiple zip codes, so it would be nice to have a broader range to set as your default.

I think that having users set a location to watch would cover some of Michinaga's complaints about being overwhelmed by uninteresting properties.

Michinaga says

If you posted about properties within walking distance of the Giants’ new ballpark, for example, I’d be interested,

I do like the idea of being able to pick a "famous" location and see discussion results for everything with in a mile or so.

Correct me if I am wrong but there seems to currently be one primary use case for the property forum, and that is discussion of potential buyers of a property. This use case limits the number of people active in the forum, and that active group is less likely to share info. I am just spit-balling her but you may want to think of additional use cases to increase the active users in order to get to that critical mass. Then tweak the design/search to appeal to this broader set of users.

Other reasons to comment on a specific property:
- Vacation rental
- "Famous" or "odd" properties
- Properties near points of interest (ball park, beach, etc...)

Another think is that other than the address there are currently no points of discussion. It was nice when you had the data on the property page so that at least that could be discussed.

Perhaps also have discussions going on at a higher level where more people would be interested, like the city. Then discussion could drill down to more specifics.

Just an idea, but to get more discussion going you could redesign how the property forum works. You could have a "parent" forum, say at the city level, then simultaneous discussion at the specific property level as a kind of "child" forum.

That way you could get your critical mass users at the city level (city discussion could be interesting in its self) then this critical mass drills down to specific properties.

Here is a sloppy mockup of what it could look like:

Perhaps the purpose of the forum could be to post what deficiency/fault exists with particular properties. Buyers help each other by sharing their research and impressions - why a particular property was a no-go for them. If it caught on, it could save buyers some time. Legal issues with this idea?

Thanks for the excellent feedback! I'm especially impressed that leoj707 did a mock up of what a better version could look like.

OK, here's a task list for me:

* Explain better that you just have to search for an address to get to its page.
* Remove the "Google this address" or put it down by the photos.
* Create default zip codes for users (cookie based?) and let users see it and change it on real estate forum pages. Set it initially by what they searched for, or what they viewed, or their user profile zip code.
* Show only the real estate comments near the user's default zip code unless they ask for to see all of them.
* Put all the collected data on the property pages again. Let people enter data again.
* Create a “parent” forum at the city level, then simultaneous discussion at the specific property level as “child” forums.
* Allow people to comment using their Facebook ids if they want, so they don't have to register.

That's probably a couple weeks of work. One huge issue is that I crashed my database repeatedly with all the data collection and queries going on. That's why I removed the lists of property for sale or for rent, and the "nearby rents" feature. Ultimately I will have to pay for better hardware if I want those features back. So I must figure out a revenue model better than donations. Google ads pay pathetically poorly on my site because so few people click them. Maybe ads on the calculator results would be profitable, since it's a very highly targeted at: "potential buyer in zip code and price range". Realtors would probably pay well for such targeted ads, but then I'd be cooperating with the devil...

Even if I could get the attention of venture capitalists, they would probably just push me into becoming part of the real estate system that I hate.

Edward1 says

Legal issues with this idea?

The truth is always OK. So you can say whatever you want that is a fact, or your opinion.

There could be a legal problem if people deliberately lied about a property to discourage competing bidders though.

rob8024 says

you need an app where people can write things about the place as they are checking it out in an open house

Yes, I dream of some iPhone/Android app that will know where you are via GPS and easily let you post pictures, opinion, maybe some short audio comments about that address. I don't know much about mobile app development yet, but I'm learning.

The truth is always OK. So you can say whatever you want that is a fact, or your opinion.

Patrick,

We have a guy here in DC with a pretty good web site for house-searching:

http://www.franklymls.com/

It has become popular to the point that all local blogs and forums link to listings exclusively on it rather than any other listing site.

Not promoting the site or the agent, but it's a good example of something that's widely used and has a comment section for each listing. Not too many comments show up though, and many are blocked per the seller's request (this has become much more common over the past few years as more people use the site). I guess people only want to report negative things about a house; things that may be hidden, deceptive, problematic with getting a viewing/accessing, etc. Almost anybody that thinks there's a good hidden quality to a house listed or that it's a great deal will keep that to themselves and their real estate circle/clientele.

Mostly I come here for confirmation (bias?) that house prices where I live and work (Menlo Park, CA) are ridiculously over-priced. Otherwise I would get too depressed that two parents with PhDs and good jobs using those degrees can't really make ends meet if they want to commute without a car. When my toddler goes outside to explore the 'yard' it really means finding dead bees on the concrete slab behind our fourplex and every time I have to go to safeway to get quarters in the middle of the night to do laundry I really want to move back to the midwest. The fact of the matter is that I am an example of the demand for housing here and I just can't afford it on what would be two good salaries anywhere else in the world.

I have a similar suggestions to others: I know the data is lumped by zip, but perhaps what you need is the ability to lump zips into regions on a master page that would notify you when new comments about property in the region are posted. I am in favor of truth in the postings and I might mention that I am interested in a place online but I would want some requirement that other posters are not RE agents for the place or at least that disclosure is upfront. Regions could develop critical mass and then subsequently subdivide as necessary. Zips are much harder to navigate for non-natives or others browsing because I have no idea which zips include which towns, for instance.

I think you need to have a more dynamic site, with photos, and a map. You're competing with the likes of Trulia whether you have a better feature or not. Really a site like Trulia with a comment section on listings would kill any kind of forum.

You could try out a content management system, like Drupal.

rbtivo says

Zips are much harder to navigate for non-natives or others browsing because I have no idea which zips include which towns, for instance.

OK, I'll make it a default city instead of a default zip.

I do have photos and a map, from Google! They are at the bottom of each property page.

Maybe people would upload photos of property if I made it easier.

rbtivo says

Zips are much harder to navigate for non-natives or others browsing because I have no idea which zips include which towns, for instance.

Useful link:
maps.huge.info/zip.htm

I can only speak for myself, but the prices in South Florida are so ridiculous that I just don't even look. So there's little incentive to discuss a specific property. Perhaps as house prices continue to plummet, it will be worth taking the time to look at properties again.

Unfortunately, the fed gvt's attempt to trick buyers into overpaying have delayed the recovery of price sanity, but now that the gvt can't "stimulate" the housing market anymore, I expect the house prices will plunge at a faster rate to make up for the lost time. Ironically, if the fed gvt had not tried to pursaude people to buy houses in 2010, the prices would have fallen (based on Case-Shiller trend) to where I would have bought a house.

When I do a search on 'Seattle' I don't get anything. When I search for a specific Seattle zip '98116' I get 99 addresses and a google map but no listings. And the map is not for zip 98116.

Patrick, try using the forum as if you were looking for property yourself and you'll see the difficulties.

The search on Seattle shows every post that mentions Seattle, most of which are not about any specific address, but just happen to mention Seattle. The specific address posts get buried unless you click "sort by relevance instead". The default sorting is by date.

Yes, the listings are missing. I had a big database problem so I had to remove them for now.

I will make a "Seattle Real Estate" page that should be what you're looking for. In fact, I plan to do that for every city in the US. It will probably take me a week to get that going.

The map that shows up when you search for 98116 is definitely in 98116 according to http://maps.huge.info/zip.htm mentioned above. It's just that the map is zoomed in a bit too much.

@Patrick

>The truth is always OK. So you can say whatever you want that is a fact, or your opinion.

This probably doesn't stop people from sending you hate mail!