patrick.net

NOMO says "Gold is fiat money as well." Hahaha. Thats because nomo doesn't understand the meaning of fiat money. Nomo can argue all he wants, but since he doesn't understand the basic definition of fiat money, he has no argument at all. [Same goes for name calling Simchaland]

"Pathological processes in liberal minds generate irrational fears and doubts, compulsive thoughts and behavior, severe impairments of emotional control and other disorders of reason which destroy the capacity of the mind to comprehend the real world. Minds afflicted with severe disorders do not exercise free choice or free will in any ordinary sense of those terms." Gabbard, Glen G., "Theories of Personality and Psychopathology"

Nomo - are you out there?

Nomograph says

Gold is fiat money as well.

Honest Abe says

Thats because nomo doesn’t understand the meaning of fiat money.

Right you are Honest Abe, gold and silver were used as money for thousands of years, not because someone decreed them to be money but because the free market saw that these precious metals were the best form of money available. This is in stark contrast to true fiat money which is only money because the powers that be have decreed it to be money.

Nomo is right we are all free to use gold and silver as money (to a certain extent). But we are all forced to accept fiat federal reserve notes as payment for debts. We must pay our taxes, and we must pay them in federal reserve notes. That is not freedom. Not by any stretch of the nomograph.

Nomograph says

Gold is fiat money as well.

What more proof is needed that some people argue for the sake of arguing. Nomo, study this, memorize it, then post your correction as to your gross misunderstanding as to what fiat money is.

Fiat Money

What Does Fiat Money Mean?
Currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, despite the fact that it has no intrinsic value and is not backed by reserves. Historically, most currencies were based on physical commodities such as gold or silver, but fiat money is based solely on faith.

Investopedia explains Fiat Money

Most of the world's paper money is fiat money. Because fiat money is not linked to physical reserves, it risks becoming worthless due to hyperinflation. If people lose faith in a nation's paper currency, the money will no longer hold any value.

Over 300 times in history, fiat money has failed and become worthless. Nomo, name one single time in all of human history when gold has been worthless.

How many apples can I buy with 70 grains of silver? How many cars?

RayAmerica says

Over 300 times in history, fiat money has failed and become worthless. Nomo, name one single time in all of human history when gold has been worthless.

Worthless? Probably never -- but it's certainly lost a shit ton of its value through various actions, like countries changing their currency to being silver based, or dropping metallic standards entirely.

That said, I can name plenty of times. Find any society that hadn't discovered mining yet.

Name one single time in all of human history when land has been worthless.

Name one single time in all of human history when food has been worthless.

Name one single time in all of human history when steel has been worthless.

Take your 70 grains of silver to most any coin shop in America and they'll tell you how many apples or cars it will buy. they will buy the silver and give you its equivalent cash value on the spot.

Go ahead, name a couple of the "plenty of times gold has been worthless". And while you're at it name a country thats "dropped metallic standards entirely".

Land, food, steel ...whats your point, and how does that relate to the thread "What is a dollar?"

Kevin says

Name one single time in all of human history when land has been worthless.

Detroit, Michigan. The city was attempting to sell homes, you know, the type that is built on top of "land" for $1.00 and they had no takers. The result? The City of Detroit is now in the process of bulldozing literally 10,000+ of these "worthless" homes. What do you think that land is worth? After an earthquake, land along the fault line can't be given away. Rural building sites in which the Health Dept. refused the permit for a septic system. Building sites that have been labeled "wet lands" cannot be built upon. Just a few examples off the top of my head of "worthless" land.

Kevin says

How many apples can I buy with 70 grains of silver? How many cars?

Let's pretend you see a 1 OZ. bullion gold coin and a bundle of $20 bills worth $500 and you can only pick up one, which one would you pick up?

Nomo still hasn't looked up the definition of fiat money. BTW, do you know what "the invisible hand" means?

Nevertheless, all modern liberal governments enslave, to one degree or another, the people they allegedly serve. Of course, modern liberal collectivism stops short of the psychotic delusions of full-blown communism. Yet liberal mentality still denies the individuals' full ownership of himself, denies sovereign control of his property, and declares that a very great deal of his time, effort and assets are the disposable property of the state, to be redistributed to others, at the discretion of government "officials", who are doing good deeds.

Although these actions are rationalized as beneficial, our elected "officials" have lost sight of Americas vision of individual liberty and individual responsibility. Liberty, opportunity and personal responsibility, are what made America great in the first place. Unfortunately, they are being destroyed one regulation at a time. The masses, through endless government handouts, are duped into voting for manipulators masking as statesman with noble purposes. The end result appears to be a self destructing system - simply because we won't follow our own laws (the constitution). Together we'll destroy America, but everyone will be happy along the way - UGH.

RayAmerica says

Let’s pretend you see a 1 OZ. bullion gold coin and a bundle of $20 bills worth $500 and you can only pick up one, which one would you pick up?

It depends on what gold is selling for in the open market... Nomo is right-gold is only valuable because people perceive it as such. It has no intrinsic value.

The suppression of human rights and freedoms ultimately leads to unjust imprisonment, confiscation of income and property, torture, corruption or the outright destruction of freedoms necessary fro human well-being leading to widespread poverty, hunger, instability, chaos, violence and famine.

The path America is on RIGHT NOW, in the name of good, is a familiar one. The unspeakable horrors of Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism and others were simply the end result of a long evolution of ideas like Liberalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, leading to the consolidation of power in a CENTRAL GOVERNMENT in the name of "social justice". Tens of millions of deaths were the result of powerful central government's engaged in social justice.

Show me where a sound dollar and capitalism causes anywhere near the pain, suffering, tragedy, misery and number of deaths that a fiat currency and a powerful socialistic central government has caused.

Honest Abe says

The suppression of human rights and freedoms ultimately leads to unjust imprisonment, confiscation of income and property, torture, corruption or the outright destruction of freedoms necessary fro human well-being leading to widespread poverty, hunger, instability, chaos, violence and famine.

Alright. What's that have to do with silver?

The path America is on RIGHT NOW, in the name of good, is a familiar one. The unspeakable horrors of Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism and others were simply the end result of a long evolution of ideas like Liberalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, leading to the consolidation of power in a CENTRAL GOVERNMENT in the name of “social justice”. Tens of millions of deaths were the result of powerful central government’s engaged in social justice.

Well, no. The rise of hitler, stalin, etc. was a violent and rapid reaction to a system where the people had their lives turned to shit by capitalism and monarchy. It wasn't some evolution -- it was a reaction. People were ANGRY about what the capitalist / aristocratic class had done to their lives.

The social democracies that now exist in EVERY successful economy on the planet are what saved capitalism from itself. If they hadn't come into existence, the violent dictators like Hitler would have come to power, just like they did in about half of the countries.

And we instituted these systems while we were still on the gold standard. Both the dictators and the social democracies. Completely different paths.

Show me where a sound dollar and capitalism causes anywhere near the pain, suffering, tragedy, misery and number of deaths that a fiat currency and a powerful socialistic central government has caused.

Hey, I can conflate unrelated things too.

Show me one place where grape jelly has caused nearly the pain and suffering of capitalism. Obviously we need a grape jelly based economy.

Wow - you successfully conflated your entire reply - well done !

Honest Abe says

The path America is on RIGHT NOW, in the name of good, is a familiar one. The unspeakable horrors of Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism and others were simply the end result of a long evolution of ideas like Liberalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, leading to the consolidation of power in a CENTRAL GOVERNMENT in the name of “social justice”. Tens of millions of deaths were the result of powerful central government’s engaged in social justice.

Other than memorizing some trite phrases it is obvious you have no clue about history of any kind.

Which of the "trite phrases", as you call them, is wrong?

Haven't read responses till now, but to clear this up so no one looking at these messages gets bad information...

tatupu70 says

If you do that–it’s your own fault. Investing your savings in a bank is almost always a losing proposition.

It is impracticable for the average American not to use banking for most of his day-to-day financial transactions. Furthermore, it is ridiculous that a person should be forced to take any financial risk in terms of investing in stock, bonds, or other assets simply to RETAIN the value of his money rather than to grow it. Money should automatically store value without loss. That's part of the definition of money.

Real incomes always decline during a recession and rise again as the economy grows.

Your statements are empirically false. Real incomes have frequently over the past two generations failed to climb at all during economic booms while falling during recessions. Simply Google "real income of Americans over time adjusted for inflation." Furthermore, inflation has the immediate effect of lowering the purchasing power of your income. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

You need a lesson in cause and effect.

This is like saying, "insert counterargument here." You haven't actually said anything, so the only reply I can give to you is, never try to out logic a person who does logic 70 hours a week for a living. It's like trying to outrun a professional racer.

Oh, wait a sec. If Thomas Jefferson said it, then it must be true….

In addition to explaining exactly how inflation works to undermine economic prosperity, I have quoted the founding fathers to show to you that these facts have been well-known for a long time. However, if you really want to compare your reputation to Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin, I'll give more credence to the fathers of our country.

Who would more people trust as a source of wisdom: the author of Poor Richard's Almanac or tatupu70?

Dan8267 says

That’s part of the definition of money.

Nope. Nice try though.

Dan8267 says

Your statements are empirically false. Real incomes have frequently over the past two generations failed to climb at all during economic booms while falling during recessions. Simply Google “real income of Americans over time adjusted for inflation.” Furthermore, inflation has the immediate effect of lowering the purchasing power of your income. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

OK--I wasn't being literal that real incomes rise every year during a boom and fall every year during a recession. My apologies-I thought that was obvious. The point was that it's not unusual for real incomes to fall during very bad economic times and it has very little to do with a fiat currency.

Dan8267 says

You haven’t actually said anything, so the only reply I can give to you is, never try to out logic a person who does logic 70 hours a week for a living. It’s like trying to outrun a professional racer.

Well, I don't think 70 hours is enough. You imply that the reason for the success of the colonies was the "honest" currency without any supporting evidence.

Dan8267 says

However, if you really want to compare your reputation to Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin, I’ll give more credence to the fathers of our country.

Nope--Jefferson and Franklin clearly have better reputations. My point is that even the Founding Fathers were not infallable. Every word uttered by Jefferson wasn't gospel.

I realize this is "about.com" but similar sentiments can be found elsewhere:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/fallromeeconomic/a/econoffall.htm

Sounds like we are headed in the same direction, perhaps? For those of you who don't want to click the link:

"Nero and other emperors debased the currency in order to supply a demand for more coins. By debasing the currency is meant that instead of a coin having its own intrinsic value+, it was now only representative of the silver or gold it had once contained. By the time of Claudius II Gothicus (268-270 A.D.) the amount of silver in a supposedly (100%) silver denarius was only .02%.
This led to or was severe inflation, depending on how you define inflation."

.....

"Rome's wealth was originally in land, but this gave way to wealth through taxation.

The Cato Institute (a modern free-market think tank) says that emperors deliberately overtaxed the senatorial (or ruling) class in order to render it powerless. To do this, the emperors needed a powerful set of enforcers -- the imperial guard.

Once the wealthy and powerful were no longer either rich or powerful, the poor had to pay the bills of the state. These bills included the payment of the imperial guard and the military troops at the empire's borders."

....

"Since the military and the imperial guard were absolutely essential, taxpayers had to be compelled to produce their pay. Workers had to be tied to their land.

To escape the burden of tax, some small landowners sold themselves into slavery, since slaves didn't have to pay tax and freedom from taxes was more desirable than personal liberty."

Good point. I think we'll soon see small landowners selling themselves into slavery in the US. Maybe 2015?

Nomograph says

Money is issued by the government as tender. Are you actually suggesting that you think it is the job of the government to store your wealth for you?

(HINT: It isn’t)

Sorry pal, but your cries for a nanny-state to shelter you from the perils of a free market will go unanswered.

Nomograph, you ignorant slut. No, I am not suggesting that government should protect people from risks in free market investments. I have no idea how you pulled that out of your @$$ from my comments. Nor am I suggesting that we should have a nanny-state. I am not even suggesting that government should be the controller of money -- and in our country, it isn't, the fed is.

What I have stated is that money should retain value as that is one of its four functions. As Peter Schiff states in his book Crash Proof, the purpose of money is
1. A medium for the exchange of goods and services.
2. A unit of accounting.
3. A method of deferred payment.
4. A store of value.

When money fails in any of these purposes, the economy suffers. Before the federal reserve was created, the U.S. dollar held its value. After the fed was created, we got the Great Depression.

The only people who are pro-inflation are debtors and the big bankers.

Dan8267 says

Before the federal reserve was created, the U.S. dollar held its value. After the fed was created, we got the Great Depression.

Still haven't figured out the whole cause/effect thing yet, have you?

tatupu70 says

Dan8267 says

Before the federal reserve was created, the U.S. dollar held its value. After the fed was created, we got the Great Depression.

Still haven’t figured out the whole cause/effect thing yet, have you?

Insert argument here.

Dan8267 says

> Wow–thanks professor. Now it takes $1 to buy a candy bar instead of $.30. But the average income is $30K instead of $10K. So what?

OK, smart-ass. Here's the point. Say you put 20% of your income in a savings account that offers 2% interest, but inflation is running at 5%. You are actually paying a 3% annual fee to the bank for storing your money. You pay a 5% tax if you keep your money in cash. That's damn significant to anyone who has savings including retirement plans. Factor in the fact that you will keep adding to your savings, and the amount of real wealth you lose each year grows every year. That's the point.

Furthermore, the real median income of U.S. households has decline over the past ten years. This may be masked by inflation, but its effects are not.

Inflation also makes it more difficult to meaningfully compare the change in value of assets over long periods of times. This is especially true since the Federal Reserve stopped reportin...

Back in the day, we had people on this forum who understood what causes inflation, and we also had idiots who argued nonsense about how inflation was good for the economy. Generally speaking the people who think inflation is good are the same people who today support the Nancy Pelosi and Hunter Biden lifestyle and politics. In other words they like corruption, bullying people to take vaxxes and spend money for wars in foreign lands so that some of that money can be laundered and return to Nancy, Clintons and Bidens to continue living high on the hog while the average and below average person fall further and further behind. Inflation is just one of many tools the globalists use to maintain and enhance their control.

Dan8267 says

Nomograph says

Money is issued by the government as tender. Are you actually suggesting that you think it is the job of the government to store your wealth for you?

(HINT: It isn’t)

Sorry pal, but your cries for a nanny-state to shelter you from the perils of a free market will go unanswered.

Nomograph, you ignorant slut. No, I am not suggesting that government should protect people from risks in free market investments. I have no idea how you pulled that out of your @$$ from my comments. Nor am I suggesting that we should have a nanny-state. I am not even suggesting that government should be the controller of money -- and in our country, it isn't, the fed is.

What I have stated is that money should retain value as that is one of its four functions. As Peter Schiff states in his book Crash Proof, the purpose of money is

1. A medium for the exchange of goods and services.

Dan8267 says

2. A unit of accounting.

3. A method of deferred payment.

4. A store of value.

When money fails in any of these purposes, the economy suffers. Before the federal reserve was created, the U.S. dollar held its value. After the fed was created, we got the Great Depression.

The only people who are pro-inflation are debtors and the big bankers.

Well said Dan!

nope says

How many apples can I buy with 70 grains of silver? How many cars?

1 troy ounce is 480 grains. 70 grains is about the amount of silver ins 2 silver dimes, which is worth about $3.35 right now.

Back in the old days, the federal government standardized silver units into dimes, quarters, and halves, which contained 0.72 ozt per $1 face value. e.g.: 0.72 troy ounces of silver in 10 dimes. So, no need to deal with grains of silver, as everything was clearly laid out, labeled, and standardized. Strangely, a silver dollar had 0.77 ozt of silver; weird.

PeopleUnited says

Ever heard of a monetary reset? I suggest one is coming soon to a "democracy" near you.

Any year now. This system can't hold up for more than a couple more centuries.

Personally, I never thought the Fed could bamboozle us for this long.

What is to prevent people from trading with each other in silver or gold?

Patrick says

What is to prevent people from trading with each other in silver or gold?

A man named Bernard von NotHaus created gold, silver, and copper coins which he called "Liberty dollars". He was sued by the Federal Government as a terrorist for doing this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_von_NotHaus

Privately, nothing. Publicly, all business's must accept federal debt notes. And bad money will always drive out good. Why should I use real money when I can pay you in worthless paper, and you HAVE to accept it?

Businesses do not actually have to accept federal debt notes except for debts.

If you don't have a debt to them yet, they could demand gold, or Rubles, or whatever before they agree to do business with you. At least that's my understanding.

richwicks says

A man named Bernard von NotHaus created gold, silver, and copper coins which he called "Liberty dollars". He was sued by the Federal Government as a terrorist for doing this.

I think his problem was that he used the word "dollar":

Federal prosecutors successfully argued that von NotHaus was, in fact, trying to pass off the silver coins as U.S. currency. Coming in denominations of 5, 10, 20, and 50, the Liberty Dollars also featured a dollar sign, the word "dollar" and the motto "Trust in God," similar to the "In God We Trust" that appears on U.S. coins.:[13]

If you just had the weight in grams and no mention of anything that's on a dollar, it might be legal.

NuttBoxer says

Privately, nothing. Publicly, all business's must accept federal debt notes.

No they don't. Some places literally refuse to take cash.

Patrick says

What is to prevent people from trading with each other in silver or gold?

laws

We can trade with each other in gold and silver, as long as the person that has what you want, wants what you have.

There's some freakiness in the precious metal markets. The price of silver (official paper price of silver) is less than half of what it was in 1980. Gold and silver are currently used as money but there is a middleman (your local gold/silver shop or website) that gets a cut when buying or selling.

Gold and silver are kind of like bitcoin, but you have to actually hold it.

This is one dollar:



You could spend a couple of them for a candy bar.

richwicks says

NuttBoxer says

Privately, nothing. Publicly, all business's must accept federal debt notes.

No they don't. Some places literally refuse to take cash.

True, but I do not know how that can have that policy. There have even been court cases where a business was forced to take payments in pennies.

Some interesting reading on the subject:

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

Notice how they specifically mention currency and coin together, then separately mention federal reserve notes. For anyone who's ever argued Federal Reserve notes are real money, even the Federal Reserve disagrees with you.
They also mention public charges, which would indicate Fed notes are not just for paying debt.

Can a business refuse fiat currency? In theory yes, but in practice, well, I'd wager you wouldn't want to the repercussions of practice if it became popular unless you like rigged courts, and lots of time alone in a cell. You see if refusal of all forms of Federal Reserve notes became popular(paper, coin, check, credit card, etc), the system would collapse. And the collapse would be so quick, and the changes it effected so damaging to their agenda, that there's no way they'd ever let it happen if they can stop it.

You think refusing to pay taxes is bad, try refusing all forms of Federal Reserve payments and see how long before IRS agents show up at your door.

Onvacation says

There's some freakiness in the precious metal markets. The price of silver (official paper price of silver) is less than half of what it was in 1980.

You're comparing the price of silver now to the peak when two brothers attempted to corner the market. I've said this before, the highly manipulated paper value is only useful in times of stability. If you can buy silver for spot today, it's isn't silver, or it's not the ounces they're telling you.

Onvacation says

Gold and silver are currently used as money but there is a middleman (your local gold/silver shop or website) that gets a cut when buying or selling.

There's also been a widely successful attempt to label gold and silver as investments rather than money, which means taxes. Tennessee recently passed a law voiding that tax, but they're the exception.

Onvacation says

This is one dollar:

It's not. A dollar is actually a weight first, designating a coin with a certain weight of silver. The ones made after the 50's I believe no longer have the required silver, and so become just another form of fiat currency.

A peso was also a weight of silver before it was debased into nothingness.

Inherited from Old Spanish peso, from Vulgar Latin *pēsum, from Latin pēnsum, from pendō (“to weigh”).

The British pound was a pound of silver as well.