patrick.net

Tp: I understood your point.

Taxpayer says

BASED ON THE NUMBERS

It's not based on numbers, its based on what you define y and x to be
and what you think that quotient represents.

The ratio of (cost of roads)/(profits), doesn't quite make sense (because others use the roads) but lets pretend it makes sense. Then what I think you are saying is the corporation pays the taxes, or nearly equivalently, the ceo and the worker pay the same percentage of their taxes towrads it. Okay. I changed the subject a little.
Taxpayer says

This question is like asking what name they should give their children.

You say that if I think that the government should raise their tax burden (imperceptibly - really - to him - based on his cost of living) that that would be like naming their kids ?

This one goes a little beyond logic I will admit. It goes to philosophy about what's in the common good versus justfying absurd levels of self interest..

Two great quotes from a favorite commie pinko economist.

Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
John Kenneth Galbraith

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith

I think he acknowledged the ceo paying 100 times as much if the ceo pays the same tax rates. But I would argue the ceo should pay even more, since his taxes come totally out of discretionary income (they should have a term super-discretionary, for income that is above the highest living expenses possible)

Taxpayer says

I am saying that you have no RIGHT to ask demand that the high income people pay more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Let me guess. This is a popular email that gets sent around republican circles.

" I agree" (actually I do agree)

"And I'm tired of the fricking liberals who think that everyone has all of these rights"

(I know it's bullshit to imply that liberals believe this - but if we get more votes for our side - no harm no foul, right ?)

Another giant list of straw men cooked up by right wingnuts to fire up their base with meaningless and inane propaganda posted here by yet another right wingnut troll.

Yawn. Wake me up when something new comes up.

hmm, there are many points for and against circumcision. How about we, I dunno; wait until the child is old enough to consent to having part of him chopped off for opinion rife reasons. This isn't subsaharan africa where the lowest denomination of prevention against STDs is needed and even there I believe kids should have a right to make a choice without a bunch of me-too men pressuring them into it.

At least figure out a way to chop it off that won't leave you guys with massive scarlines along your dick anymore. And yes men; we women can see it clearly 90% of the time.

Farcical Liberalism in action.

These pansies and loons insist your letting them lead their own lives ... while they insist on invading your personal lives and managing your children.

Its a Jewish and Catholic tradition. The Jews have more Nobel Laureate than any other group.

I rest my case.

Taxpayer says

ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we’re just not interested in public health care.

Yea, I know that when I drive past a house where low-income people live, I hope they have cancer or something. It actually should say that they're not interested in public health care, unless it's them, their child or spouse with billed charges of $500k. Then, they'd be demanding care be provided no matter the cost.

Taxpayer says

You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any other form of wealth...You do not have the right to never be offended...You do not have the right to be free from harm...You don’t have the right to a job...You do not have the right to happiness...

Really? Because if we don't have the "right" to these things, that means that an oppressive government won't allow citizens to have these things. If we were to have a window into the home (and soul) of the ass who created this, I'm willing to bet that he/she wrote it on a computer in a home with a television and a car outside. They complain about "the terminally whiny, guilt ridden, delusional, and other liberal bed wetters..." but they're the ones who are whiny about others having rights. Because, let's get real, what they mean is that THEY have the right to these things, they just want to limit others from having these things.

I guess the moral of their story is that they want to be the Joneses, and not allow others to keep up with them.

It is called, "The Party of No."

No soup for you!

HIP, it most emphatically is NOT a Catholic tradition. They are very clear about that. It's a choice. They teach that Jesus liberated followers from "the letter of the law" and that the "law should be written in your hearts." One of the big breaks with Judaism in early Christianity was that the people who argued that a convert to Christianity does not have to become Jewish first won that debate. This allowed gentiles easier entry into Christianity. Jewish life cycle Traditions did not have to be followed by Christians. That includes circumcision. Catholics claim to be the original church that made this split with Peter as the first Pope. Remember Peter was to be the rock on whom the risen Christ would build his church? Peter was an circumcised Jew and originally insisted on the converion of Gentiles to Judaism before being allowed into the Church. Paul convinced Peter that the gentiles were worthy of "The Good News" whether or not they became Jews.

simchaland says

It is called, “The Party of No.”
No soup for you!

But they get tons of soup, 'cause they have the right. ;)

I'm sticking with the Original list, regardless what Idiot Right or the Clueless left thinks. It's over 235 years old, and worked before Regan and Clinton.

We don't have a right to drive across country on 4-6 lane highways either.

If you want them, start a corporation to build a toll road to provide them and fund them.

Right?

Taxpayer says

but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.

These opportunities "cost money". I see a lot of great opportunities I can't afford. HS diplomas are not the job ticket they were in 1960.

There's a Doctorate with out the Certificate, right on the other side of this keyboard.

Information and Knowledge is not something locked away in the Tower of Educational institutions, that cost a kings ransom to attain, anymore.
Anyone sitting around belly aching about missed opportunities due to lack of education. Really aren't applying them selves.

All of the "Foremost leading experts" in any field did not get that from a classroom. They obtained their knowledge by being curious and applying them selves.

I'm an expert in complex processes, rubrics and matrices.
The highest grade I completed was the 10th grade.

What have I been working on for over year now?

Creating software that evaluates the effectiveness of Program and course outcomes, that manages the credit hours for those course, for a top University.

Money spent on my education? $0 Just the endless hours of me parked on my Ass reading online resources until my eyeballs bled.

I am educated as I set out to learn the technology I have attained. My peers for the most part, are not educated, they have degrees.
They work in the IT department of the University I contract remotely for. They show up, and are bound to the office for 9 to 5, and when they have to review my code, they defer it back to me. Where I'm at home making a sandwich, and listening to Jazz on XM radio. Their knowledge went no further than the 300 to 400 pages in their text books. I read that many pages just for one topic of a subject.

Self made people have always been doable in America, but that concept is the major Universities worst nightmares. Because the self taught, show just how little graduates really know. With their degrees and iBooks and Mocha Lattes.

Congrats on being able to write code, tenpound. I'm happy for you and your ability to support yourself and your family.

Your lack of ability to communicate effectively, at least in writing, might be the reason that they don't want you in the office - there are so many grammatical errors in your post it's crazy.

A "Doctorate without a certificate" is just another person. Tenouncetrout says

My peers for the most part, are not educated, they have degrees.

Actually, they are educated in the formal sense. You are self-taught. Neither way is better, it just is.

Tenouncetrout says

Their knowledge went no further than the 300 to 400 pages in their text books. I read that many pages just for one topic of a subject.

The truth is that you don't know how much education they have beyond their formal degrees, you are just assuming that they haven't furthered their education.

But isn't it possible that they started their careers at the same point you took years to attain? That their formal education enabled them to start at a professional salary in the field of their choosing?

I agree with most of what you say here Tot, except

Tenouncetrout says

but that concept is the major Universities worst nightmares.

Most professors who teach computer science either do have some valuable (even if slightly dated) real world experience, or they readily and gladly acknowledge that what they teach is theoretical and abstract. In either case they would be the first to tell you the importance of real world experience, and that so much of the types of programming done out in the world is specialized beyond what they teach and beyond the worthwhile practice you get in CS classes.

All seem like stinkers right now. And don't forget about the problems with housing markets in the developed commonwealth countries. Or the probable meltdown coming to emerging market economies later this year/next year. And so on...who knows for sure...

When I graduated college, I had served a one year internship. It meant nothing - I can remember when I would meet some social worker who had been practicing 20 some-odd years and would refer to them as an "old social worker." They knew so much and were much more abrasive than us newbies.

I'm an "old social worker" now. My college years gave me a theoretical background, and without it I couldn't be licensed. But my "real world" experience is what makes me most valuable.

elliemae says

That their formal education enabled them to start at a professional salary in the field of their choosing?

My first gig was the lead developer for a National Mail order catalog,
converting a Unix based DataFlex application, which I knew nothing about, over to VB 5 which I did know. This was only 11 months after I first asked, "what does this button do?" and learned...
HTML
Javascript
JAVA
and VB

I had two guys under me, fresh out of Kaiser College.

Don't assume you know me, I'm not at the places I work for, to drink Tea, and speak the Kings English. I'm there because I'm good at what I do. We are talking about a field where Indians reign supreme. Spell check is not needed for what I do.

If the best developers were notoriously great communicators, then Tim Paterson and Steve Wozniak would be the house hold name, not Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

Nice theoretical / academic response.

Fact. Many to Most real / traditional Catholics males have been circumcised.

Just ask them

simchaland says

HIP, it most emphatically is NOT a Catholic tradition.

The circumcision thing is about simcha, or more broadly about judaism. Please let's not lose site of that.

Tenouncetrout says

Don’t assume you know me

I don't assume anything - just saying that your way isn't the only way to get where you are. It worked for you is all.

Tenouncetrout says

If the best developers were notoriously great communicators, then Tim Paterson and Steve Wozniak would be the house hold name, not Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

I've heard of Wozniak, never heard of Paterson. That doesn't make me stupid. Don't assume you know me. ;)

RE: Simcha

from wikipedia

Early depictions of circumcision are found in cave paintings and Ancient Egyptian tombs

Religious male circumcision is considered a commandment from God in Judaism.

In Islam, though not discussed in the Qur'an, male circumcision is widely practised and most often considered to be a sunnah.

It is also customary in some Christian churches in Africa, including some Oriental Orthodox Churches.

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), global estimates suggest that 30% of males are circumcised, of whom 68% are Muslim.

So much for "simcha"

Double post

Health Insurace Pro says

RE: Simcha
from wikipedia
Early depictions of circumcision are found in cave paintings and Ancient Egyptian tombs
Religious male circumcision is considered a commandment from God in Judaism.
In Islam, though not discussed in the Qur’an, male circumcision is widely practised and most often considered to be a sunnah.
It is also customary in some Christian churches in Africa, including some Oriental Orthodox Churches.
According to the World Health Organization (WHO), global estimates suggest that 30% of males are circumcised, of whom 68% are Muslim.
So much for “simcha”

OK, what are you talking about? None of that says that circumcision is a Roman Catholic tradition. Not sure what you and Marcus are trying to prove.

I see that no one else but the Jews has circumcision as a commandment. Muslims do it because much of their religious Traditions are closely aligned with Jewish Traditions. Jews and Muslims have more in common than both religions do to Christianity.

I said this ballot measure is anti-semitic. Last time I checked, Arabs are also Semitic. They speak the Semitic language of Arabic. This law is against religions that circumcise.

And yet Muslims and Arabs are not specifically commanded to get ritually circumcised like Jews are. Non-Jewish Americans have been and still are free to either circumcise or not to circumcise because they aren't commanded like Jews are.

This ballot measure has a disproportionate impact on Jews. It's very easy for non-Jews to dismiss anti-semitism out of hand because they never have and never will have to experience it.

Both of you are coming across as incoherent and insensitive.

Maybe you don't take this ballot measure as personal because it doesn't affect you personally. That's nice for you but this ballot measure does personally affect Jews.

My latest posts were filled with information requested by posters in this thread.

In reality, no other country can keep pace with our military. They can't keep up fiscally or technologically. We are that far ahead and don't get me started about military discipline. So, when you through in a well trained and technologically advanced force in a NATO environment, we get a little frustrated because the other countries really can't keep up with us.

I guess I see that going all the way to the length of making it illegal, as disregarding the interests of jews. And clearly the guy that did the cartoon is antisemitic. Others behind it probably just have difficulty with the concept, and maybe resent that it is still often as a default procedure.

But it's all so silly since a majority of non jewish adult men are circumcised and have no problem with it, they will never go along with the law. These are wacko extremists who don't have an issue. They probably won't even get the majority of non circumcised men to vote for it.

We are talking maybe 14% that will vote for it. So who cares ?

I guess it can be seen as offensive to jewish people, considering that it's a traditional rite. It would be just like making it illegal to submerse a person under the age of 18 into water for religious purposes without first scrubbing & sanitizing the tub in every instance citing the possiblity of infection. Or outlawing them altogether because they're under the age of consent.

That would pretty much wipe out mormon baptisms, which are performed in baptismal tubs one after the other in mormon ward-houses. It would also mess with other religions, but I'm not as familiar with them.

Don’t assume you know me, I’m not at the places I work for, to drink Tea, and speak the Kings English. I’m there because I’m good at what I do. We are talking about a field where Indians reign supreme. Spell check is not needed for what I do.

At all of the leading software, hardware, and internet companies (apple, google, Microsoft, etc.) Being able to communicate clearly and effectively is considered to be just as important as being able to write quality software.

Actually writing code is not hard, anyone can do it, and for typical requirements of most businesses someone with little more then vocational training will suffice. You'll mostly be using software written by other people and making minor adjustments. The act of engineering new systems, however, is a different beast entirely.

I will continue to make the argument that NATO is unnecessary, and that doesn't mean that Europe needs to spend more on military.

The only credible military threat to Europe or the united states is china, and a war with china would go nuclear long before anyone even thought about deploying tanks.

elliemae says

I guess it can be seen as offensive to jewish people

It is almost a non-issue. Very few children in Cool and Hip San Francisco. "Doing the 'Kid Thing' " is too icky-poo for The Cool Hipsters.

But don't forget it is a Muslim tradition, too. More likely if it was intended as an affront to The Religious, would be directed at them, who seem to tolerate homosexuality in the USA a whole lot less than do Jews.

Those companies you need to dumb it down for the Clowns in the meetings, I don't work for companies where I'm in meetings with Lori from the office coordinator.

I'm usually called after a company has dumped millions in a development team lead by a non technical MS Project end user, and the meeting minutes are taken by Marge from HR, has gotten them no where. Those meetings are always unproductive, because for the edification of those present the goals are dumbed down, substantially that the end result always miss the mark of the intended goals. I work directly with folks in Business Analytic just one person delivering in weeks that has not been delivered in years from IT dept due to the internal etiquette and politics.

Team work is a concept invented by the business consultants of the 80's to keep them in the loop and employed.

When in practice great ideas, abilities can't be a Democracy, as not every one is capable of them. The enterprise is weighed down by dead weight that demands email correspondence that reads like a undergrad term paper, instead of people with the whereat all to produce valid code.

Can I communicate? You bet, am I going to work in a company where my abilities are whittled down to who has the best penmanship?
Hell no, those companies only last a year or two tops anyway.

Or to put it differently, tot is so damn good at C++, Java, Perl, SQL, and Python, that English might be considered his sixth language.

I have the right to know...

Tenouncetrout says

Team work is a concept invented by the business consultants of the 80’s to keep them in the loop and employed.

I don't know, there are times when I wish that others I work with were a bit more of a team player, and I can even acknowledge in myself an arrogance and a self interest that have at times prevented me from being a better team player. Too many chiefs, or chefs, can be a problem. If my idea is shot down, I would like to be in on a conversation (with mutual respect) discussing why.

Even if another person has a better idea, or if you do, how is that supposed to be recognized and win out without a reasonable team environment ? Remember, there's no 'I' in team.

marcus says

Even if another person has a better idea, or if you do, how is that supposed to be recognized and win out without a reasonable team environment ?

Yeah but the emblematic problems I speak of, are not of developer fruition, but more from non technical people sticking their fingers in the gravy.

Developers spite their egos welcome enlightenment on superior processes, or even new processes. So that things don't go stale.

I guess I'm saying I found my niche with the business analytics side of the enterprise. They have a clear concise goal for their needs. Other areas of the organization it's a contest of will and usefulness.

BA side, it's can you give me this in the incredibly short time I need it?
There's no time for technical analytic dog and pony shows, they need people that problem solve at the speed of speech.

Tot has obviously found his niche where he belongs - he doesn't have to communicate effectively or work with others. Good for him.

"Developers spite their egos welcome enlightenment on superior processes, or even new processes. So that things don’t go stale."

However, much of the time when he's attempting to communicate here we aren't speaking the same language.

In programmer lingo 'high level' (which he is calling superior processes), refers to what the program is actually doing for the user, or the way it's doing it (the user interface). IT's above the level the details of how it will occur or the code,... its describing logically what actually happens (or needs to happen).

"spite" means ",in spite of."

Gosh Ellie, do I have to explain everything ?

...and here I was thinking that programmers are treating their (alter) egos with "a malicious, usually petty, desire to harm, annoy, frustrate, or humiliate another person," that they welcome the state of enlightenment possibly in a ceremony which includes peyote or other controlled substances (which would explain the "superior processes)" - or new processes for those people who've never partaken during such a spiritual ceremony. And of course, that they would have such a ceremony expeditiously so that the drugs don't get stale.

I was wayyyyyyyyyyyyy off.

Time for another drinkey poo over at the goat farm Ellie?