patrick.net

Your required to get a master's degree within 5 years of being hired, hence why I excluded the salary with only a BS. And I clearly inducated in my post that I was referring to those with a amsters degree.

So? Just because one goes to college doesn't guarantee them a steady, high paying job anymore. Why should teachers be any different?

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zzyzzx 2011 Jul 18, 3:39am

For a profession that requires a master's degree and certification, teachers are not exactly overpaid. A NYC public school teacher starts off at aout $55,000. In contrast, a BigLaw associate starts at $160,000.

When you figure in that that's for 9 months of work, and lavish pensin benefits, annual raises, and full medical and dental with copays so low that they are unheard of in the private sector, that's a pretty sweet deal.

71 Honest Abe 2011 Jul 18, 3:44am

Zzyzzx - you forgot the biggest "perk" of all...TENURE.

72

FortWayne 2011 Jul 18, 3:56am

Your required to get a master's degree within 5 years of being hired, hence why I excluded the salary with only a BS. And I clearly inducated in my post that I was referring to those with a amsters degree.

thats for working only 9 month out of the year. Most people start at 40 to 45 grand and work 12 month.

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Jul 18, 4:01am

Right, how much would you pay somebody to babysit a kid for 6 hours?

$40 to the girl next door, no?

How about babysitting 30+ kids for 6 hours?

$1200? Okay, we'll give a bulk discount of 75%, what a bargain! Call it $300.

How about not only babysit 30+ kids for 6+ hours, but actually get them to pay attention and learn something - enough so they all pass a standardized test at the end of the year and score as high as possible?

How much is THAT worth?

Not to mention, put up with parents who each think their kid is a combination young Einstein and baby Mark Spitz, who give them sugary pop-tarts washed down with Hi-C with 3 teaspoons of sugar before they drop them off with you?

74

Â¥ 2011 Jul 18, 4:05am

yeah, there's no wealth-creation involved with teaching. What a dead loss. Kids should be feral.

75 Akki 2011 Jul 18, 4:37am

I wonder if NY/NJ is in same boat

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Jul 18, 4:37am

Troy says

Kids should be feral.

Nah, they should know just enough math to ring a register and count palettes of imported goods; and enough literacy to read the shelving circular.

Only those who have already proven their superior worth to society by organizing SIVs, MBS tranches, filing overbroad patent lawsuits to hassle entrepreneurs, and incorporating Cayman Island holding companies - aka "Creating Wealth" - need send their kids for a true quality education.

Anything more would be Red Socialism.

77

tatupu70 2011 Jul 18, 4:50am

EMan says

HousingWatcher says

Your required to get a master's degree within 5 years of being hired, hence why I excluded the salary with only a BS. And I clearly inducated in my post that I was referring to those with a amsters degree.

thats for working only 9 month out of the year. Most people start at 40 to 45 grand and work 12 month.

Just curious-- If being a teacher is such a great deal, why didn't you go into teaching?

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Truthplease 2011 Jul 18, 5:28am

Wow, and in two years I am moving on from the military to work on a MAEd using my GI Bill. I want to take a low rate salary and work on improving our children's education. I am a gluton for punishment!

Seeing the resentment out there is sad. I am not a teacher so I can't tell you what the struggles are. I am sure poor areas have more societal issues than teacher performance issues, but that is a guess.

I know one thing; blaming teachers for poor education is like blaming a private for the failings of a war. I believe we could do a better job so I am determined to jump in and see what I can change.

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simchaland 2011 Jul 18, 5:56am

tatupu70 says

EMan says

HousingWatcher says

Your required to get a master's degree within 5 years of being hired, hence why I excluded the salary with only a BS. And I clearly inducated in my post that I was referring to those with a amsters degree.

thats for working only 9 month out of the year. Most people start at 40 to 45 grand and work 12 month.

Just curious-- If being a teacher is such a great deal, why didn't you go into teaching?

Yes, why don't you do that Eman?

My father was a high school English teacher fo 35 years+ in Illinois. All of you ignorant fools who bash teachers have no clue what goes into being a teacher and how much work it actually is. My father was ALWAYS working, even in the Summer. But the summer work was unpaid.

Let me explain. Teaching isn't a job you leave at the office, if you are at all good at it and even if you don't go that much above and beyond the requirements of doing your job. On his "off hours" my Dad always had papers to grade, parents to call, students questions to answer (Yes he was available to students through email. He even created his own website for his classes so that the students had access to all study materials online and could reach him outside of class time for help.), lessons to plan, and classes to take for continuing education required to keep his teaching license. If I couldn't sleep and I'd get up at about 3:00am, I'd get up to find him working. He even went in on Saturdays during while school was in session to run a workshop for his students so that they could come in and get extra in-person help.

Summers were not for "lounge around" time. It was time for him to clean and organize his classroom for the next year. It was time to plan a new year's worth of lessions. He would often take continuing education classes during this time because his schedule was more free. Also my Dad took extra work after earning a few more masters degrees and certificates to do curriculum development at the District and State levels. This work was year-round, including Summers. Most of this was work he wasn't paid to do.

Of course some of my Dad's friends were teachers too and they had similar work ethics and seemed to never really be "off" during their "free time."

It's become popular to bash teachers these days such that it's become clichÃ©. Yes there are bad teachers, just like in any profession there are always people who suck at their job. Most teachers, on the other hand, aren't the caricatures that the teacher bashers create without thinking or knowing any teachers personally.

My Dad's worked anywhere from 60-70 hours each week for 40 hours worth of pay for 9-10 months out of the year. My Dad happened to be an exceptional teacher. I know this because I always ran into his former students who always gushed about him. And when he died the wake and the funeral were full of people who we didn't know who knew my Dad through working with him or having been students of his. The funeral train was almost 2 miles long. The Chicago Tribune and Daily Herald ran articles about my Dad and his accomplishments that were unsolicited by the family.

Not all teachers are exceptional. Even the average ones put in more hours than the simple 40 hours for which they get paid. And they work during the Summer without pay to prepare for the next year.

So, yeah, I guess I take all of the latest teacher bashing personally. My Dad was so busy I almost didn't know he was there sometimes. He was at work 6 days per week. On Sundays he was often in his at home office working. He did take time in summers to be with us for a few weeks for summer camp and vacations (when I was young we didn't go on vacations because we couldn't afford it because of how crappy his pay was as a new teacher back in the 70's and early 80's). In fact when I was really young he took summer jobs beyond the work he was doing unpaid for the school so that we could afford the basics.

Yes, I have fond memories of my Dad, and I'm very proud to be his son. But, because his work was so all-consuming, he wasn't always there. Believe it or not, even with that crazy work ethic, he was present at soccer games, swim meets, Boy Scouts, etc. But he wasn't always there for the day-to-day stuff. And when he was he was often passed-out asleep because of the energy expended for his profession.

So, yes, I take it personally when people who have no clue what teachers actually do or how they live and how it affects their families bash all teachers indiscriminately without qualification.

80 corntrollio 2011 Jul 18, 7:02am

ppexx says

I have lived in both areas and for Cali will soon be Detroit with good weather

I doubt it. If you ever lived in California, you probably wouldn't call it Cali. Only rappers do that.

81 corntrollio 2011 Jul 18, 7:03am

I too agree that govt. spending is bad EMan. WHich is why I have personally wrote a letter to Obama telliing him to stop sending all Social Security checks to your parents and not to send a single one to you when your 65.

Also, I am rescinding all of your tax deductions and tax credits, and any other tax preferences. From now on, you only pay the marginal rates on your gross income.

82 corntrollio 2011 Jul 18, 7:07am

thunderlips11 says

How about babysitting 30+ kids for 6 hours?

$1200? Okay, we'll give a bulk discount of 75%, what a bargain! Call it $300.

How about not only babysit 30+ kids for 6+ hours, but actually get them to pay attention and learn something - enough so they all pass a standardized test at the end of the year and score as high as possible?

How much is THAT worth?

You're misstating this. Studies show that *good* teachers are worth quite a bit more. Good teacher should be a paid a lot more. A lot more of the riff raff should not be getting yearly increases just for seniority and just because the union says so.

The problem is in the middle of the extreme viewpoints here. Older teachers get huge benefits from the teacher's union. They get massive pensions, great healthcare, etc. The young teachers get screwed because of incompetent teachers with seniority, lower pay, no pension, fewer benefits. As usual, it's the boomers forcing their costs onto future generations.

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Jul 18, 8:03am

I agree with you about the union not being perfect, either.

They often layoff 2-3 younger teachers to keep one older teacher. Or cut 4-5 down to part time and drop whole subjects, like French. And like you say, not all older teachers are fonts of wisdom. Some of them are simply gliding along to let the clock run out.

I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that even if teachers are glorified babysitters, they still offer a bargain vs. private child care.

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simchaland 2011 Jul 18, 8:40am

Ugh, you know... Really, do any one of you know any teachers personally? Are any one of you in education? Do any you actually know what's really going on in the schools in your neighborhood? Do any of you get involved with your local PTA or even your local schools?

If not, then you are talking out of your a**es.

If you aren't involved, you don't know what is going on, really. Oh you see opinion pieces in your local rags, you see "stories" on your crummy corporately controlled local tee vee station, and you hear talk radio hosts talking out of their a**es about teachers and education. You really don't know anything about what truly happens at schools unless you get involved.

Again, there are bad examples in any bunch. Teachers are no exception. But really, how do y'all actually know what you are talking about when it comes to teachers, the quality of instruction, the administration of your schools, or how the unions work with the schools and disctricts?

If you have kids in school currently. Your best bet is to actually get involved in the school where your child attends. That way you actually meet the teachers, administrators, and the principal. You show the school you really care about what kind of education your child is receiving. Your child benefits by seeing that you place a value on his or her education. And then you know what's really going on in education currently and can have intelligent discussions about policy. Then you can vote with real understanding when education initiatives show up on the ballot and district officers are being elected.

If you are the typical knee-jerk opinionated blow hard parent who barely makes it to a parent-teacher conference and who couldn't give a rat's a** what your child is studying, you know squat about what is actually going on in education. Also you are a terrible parent.

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Jul 18, 8:46am

My wife was a teacher. She taught in a rural school district in Oregon where they had just been busted by the state not having English classes for the kids of Central American farmworkers. They had a teacher's aide without a bachelor's basically running a classroom of 34 kids and trying to teach them English; the rest of the day they were immersed in regular classes, which were completely over their heads as they spoke next to no English. That's how she landed the job when the Recession began. It helped to be a native Spanish speaker, too.

They let several of her younger colleagues go, to save some of the time-punchers. The kids cried when she quit, but it's hard to keep a $32k/year job when you are offered $45k to teach adults - a much easier audience that generally can sit still for less than an hour.

Closer to home, the union tried to pull a stunt where they wanted to layoff some younger teachers from the entire district, rather than give up a few paid holidays.

So you had people in their 40s and early 50s making $80+k a year, preferring to have a few paid holidays than show some solidarity in helping to keep the younger folks' jobs who make less than half as much.

When the local paper ran the story, there was outrage, from other teachers and parents and the whole community. The negotiating stance was quickly withdrawn.

The ones who are the time-punchers are the ones careful enough to make sure they're close to the decision-makers involved. Usual politics in any organization.

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simchaland 2011 Jul 18, 8:57am

Yes, that's politics. And, I know for a fact that what you just wrote doesn't happen in every district, let alone all of them.

I just get tired of the generalizations that get thrown around about education and educators by people who have no clue.

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marcus 2011 Jul 18, 9:15am

Ugh, you know... Really, do any one of you know any teachers personally? Are any one of you in education? Do any you actually know what's really going on in the schools in your neighborhood? Do any of you get involved with your local PTA or even your local schools?

If not, then you are talking out of your a**es.

Yes. Yes. Yes. and exactly !

Thank you Simcha.

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MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Jul 18, 9:15am

Yes, that's politics. And, I know for a fact that what you just wrote doesn't happen in every district, let alone all of them.

Right. In a union with active and diverse age membership, such a proposal would have never dared been put forward and no school with an awake union would have tolerated violating state law about non-English speaking kids. These problems were caused by a lack of participation in the union to begin with.

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Bap33 2011 Jul 18, 9:28am

corntrollio says

A lot more of the riff raff should not be getting yearly increases just for seniority and just because the union says so.

It is my understanding that the automatic annual increase is not union, but it is a State Law. And absolutly nuts.

@Sim,
My comments were supposed to be aimed at the complex and not the indiviual. We agree about many things.
Point #1 where we agree: A good teacher is a special person first, a teacher second. Most good parents are also good teachers. I am a great parent, my dad was a great parent, as was his dad and his dad and his dad and his dad and his dad and his dad. But, I am not a great parent because I read a book or heard a professor lecture about parenting. Plus, I'm not a good parent because my dad was. I am a good parent because I was BORN with the stuff that makes good parents. It just can't be taught. All that can be taught is the THEROY and the PROCESS. But, in the real world the results from applied theroy and process whenever people are involved just plain suck. That's what goes on in the making of teachers today and it does not work.

Your dad was not a product of today's California Educational Force. He sounds like many of the teachers I had, ones that were natural born teachers. They never used theroy and process. They used their God given abilities and applied themselves.

Point #2: We agree that people doing what they are ment to do is seen in their efforts. Anyone that is good at anything they do, will not start and stop on a clock. They are always thinking and planning and wondering about their tasks ahead. That is what great people do. Mediocre people do only the minimums and then bitch about the agressive ones passing them for a promotion. That is why the unions made up such stupid rules as seniority in advancement. That one ideal, that lone rule, is the very best example of proof that a union group is not focused on the very best workforce for their employers. The best person for a job is the best person for a job ... the longest employed person may not be that person. Seniority is stuuupid, whith respect to anything but the best parking spots.

On the issue you mention about long hours you have to be careful about stuff like that, and I'll explain why. If someone is just a poor planner, but damned determined to have a great plan, that person will take more time to develop their great plan. And there are folks that can think on the fly and have a great plan in a flash (that would be me). So, when you mention the loads of time that your Dad put into his tasks there is a kind-of double edged sword there. While it is very possible, and I'll even say likely, that you Dad was going the extra mile at the expense of personal time, it is also possible that he was talking longer just doing the needful things that others get done in a timely fashion, and the end result was he had to work extra to get the stuff done. Now, listen, I am not saying that as a negative. It is a positive because the moral here is he did what it took to do the very best he could. I am just suggesting that time management or productivity rates can very between folks. My job is a constant on my mind -- even when I'm on here sparring. lol

Point #3: We agree, If someone does not have kids, or does have kids but does not get involved, then they should be quiet on school matters other than budget. I have kids. I am very involved. Of my kid's trek through school thus far- 50% of the HS teachers I've experienced so far are a shame, 30% ok, 20% born to teach. K to 6th have been 90% great, 5% ok, 5% crap. For some reason 7th and 8th were total bombs. I mean complete junk. Of the early years, I'd say 2nd and 3rd had great teachers, both in the private Christian School environment and in the public school environment. We have tried both.

I know a few teachers personally. Some I have known since we were in grammer school together. Only a couple are good teachers. One of the great ones is a dude, and a Gemorran, and super funny, and full of energy, and has next year ready when this year ends, and would do the job for alot less money (his exact words). He is in N.LasVegas and has some tuff kids (8th grade). I pick him to share for obvious reasons. But, he really is a natural BORN teacher. His dad was too, and was a great guy. My point is, great teachers possess the right tools to have their students respond and those tools come at birth, not from sitting in a classroom. In my opinion, the higher learning classroom is too far left to be good for America's future.

Vouchers would help shine a light on the great teachers too. They deserve it.

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marcus 2011 Jul 18, 9:28am

thunderlips11 says

They let several of her younger colleagues go, to save some of the time-punchers.

I don't know the specifics, but there are usually more than one frame of reference in these situations. (By the way we took 7 furlough days last year, 5 the year before)

But about that frame of reference. A union doesn't want want to give up hard earned raises, knowing they will have to fight for years to get them back, and knowing that management can play accounting tricks to make any claim they wish to make.

According to your reasoning, all the upper administrator (in their 6 figure jobs) have to do is work the accounting to where they can say (showing numbers) these lower level people will have to be laid off unless you all take a pay cut. Sounds awfully easy to me.

Why does anyone ever get laid off in any company EVER ? When you can say that the other employees who weren't laid off could have gotten together and taken pay cuts to help avoid the layoffs ?

You have to be careful, because there are always different ways of describing the same situation depending on your bias and agenda. It's not always easy to discern what's really going on.

But in any case, States have been hurting big time, and a lot of teachers have taken cuts, and a lot have been laid off, and class sizes have gone from way too big to ridiculously big.

And on top of the pain, teachers have to listen to all the no nothing experts on education. Well, I don't have to do I.

91 corntrollio 2011 Jul 18, 9:36am

Really, do any one of you know any teachers personally?

Uh, yeah, one of my in-laws is one of the privileged people with seniority who got in before all of the changes that screwed the younger people and freely admits it.

He has also told me much about the "rubber room" procedures where teachers that should be fired, but aren't because of the union, are kept.

I personally would be for increasing teacher pay as long as they give up tenure and allow the crappy teachers to be fired. The good teachers are worth far more than the union scale allows them to be paid.

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Bap33 2011 Jul 18, 9:54am

corntrollio says

The good teachers are worth far more than the union scale allows them to be paid.

great point

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HousingWatcher 2011 Jul 18, 10:01am

Instead of solely blaming teachers, maybe we should be looking at the higher ups as well. Perhaps we should be blaming education "reformers" like Michelle Rhee who through their high stakes testing approach have turned our schools into a high stakes poker game.

94

simchaland 2011 Jul 18, 10:12am

I'm only continuing this to prove the point that there are exceptional teachers out there. We only seem to hear about the bad ones. That's not "fair and balanced."

Bap33 said, "Your dad was not a product of today's California Educational Force. He sounds like many of the teachers I had, ones that were natural born teachers. They never used theroy [sic] and process. They used their God given abilities and applied themselves."

You didn't know my Dad so I'm not taking this personally. He loved theory and process. He loved the educational process. He studied it avidly. He used theory and process in everything he did. Good teachers use both their innate abilities and they use theory and process to improve their skills and methods.

Bap33 said, "If someone is just a poor planner, but damned determined to have a great plan, that person will take more time to develop their great plan. And there are folks that can think on the fly and have a great plan in a flash... While it is very possible, and I'll even say likely, that you Dad was going the extra mile at the expense of personal time, it is also possible that he was talking longer just doing the needful things that others get done in a timely fashion, and the end result was he had to work extra to get the stuff done. Now, listen, I am not saying that as a negative. It is a positive..."

This does border on an insult that I don't think you intended. Again, you didn't know my Dad. He was a genius. (Winning any kind of argument with him was almost impossible for this kid.) He was a quick thinker and an excellent planner. He had it all. He was just an intense workaholic who really loved what he did. He never wasted time. We had to sift through reems of complicated theory, curriculum plans, curriculum development, essays, etc. when he died. The man had 4 laptops filled to the brim with documents he created to improve not only his own teaching, but to instruct others on how to be great teachers. Also they were filled to the brim with work from at least 2 of his 4 masters degrees.

Again, yes, he had innate talents. And he always strived to improve his skills and to teach others within his profession how they can improve by instructing them on his mistakes, successes, his theories, and the process of how he developed his methods. He recorded everything. He was an encyclopedia of knowledge and the vast body of his work was staggering.

The man was a master multi-tasker. While he worked 60-80 hours at his profession (most weeks), he also attended soccer games, Boy Scout camps and meetings, swim meets, took us to the theater, movies, had picnics, taught us canoeing, etc. He wasn't "just a teacher" at his school. He ran the concessions stands for the athletic department and was a girl's track coach. And he was constantly going to school, hence the 4 masters degrees. He always felt learning was a life long process (yes, a process). He attended to multiple family emergencies while balancing all of this (he had to think on his feet a lot).

Dad was also a spontaneous person in so many ways. He had it all, I dare say. He could plan like no one else and he could be fantastically quick, decisive, and spontaneous.

A great teacher is someone who has both innate qualities that make him or her a great teacher, and who learns through practice, theory, and the process of education to master their skills. And after that, he or she goes back to school to build on their successes and learn from their mistakes.

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Bap33 2011 Jul 18, 10:27am

I assure you, none of what I wrote was to be negative about your dad.

A great teacher is someone who has both innate qualities that make him or her a great teacher, and who learns through practice, theory, and the process of education to master their skills. And after that, he or she goes back to school to build on their successes.

Without the innate part, the end result is a great student being placed in the role of a teacher. Desire does wonders, but it will never beat BORN IN qualities. I am sure you agree that young people not exploring and using their BORN IN talents should be a sin. Everyone was built to do a particular task better than most, in my opinion. Part of growth should be finding that craft/task and allowing your fellow man to enjoy the fruits of you doing the craft/task you were BORN to do. Like, for example, my wife was born to be a mom - in my opinion. And by doing her job well she is creating a better world for all of those around her. I know, kinda cheezy, but you get the drift.

We disagree on the point of theory (sorry, cant spell) and process being as important as personality and soul. But that's ok, we will survive.

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Bap33 2011 Jul 18, 10:28am

my copy missed your edit, but not on purpose.

97

MisdemeanorRebel 2011 Jul 18, 10:35am

Instead of solely blaming teachers, maybe we should be looking at the higher ups as well. Perhaps we should be blaming education "reformers" like Michelle Rhee who through their high stakes testing approach have turned our schools into a high stakes poker game.

Yep. Or that we provide no alternative than going to college since we don't offer any free public technical training like most other developed countries.

98

Bap33 2011 Jul 18, 10:43am

@thunderlips,
right on

99

marcus 2011 Jul 18, 12:02pm

Now, if you are going to suggest there is no effect from these changes being made, then you have to share why in the world the changes WERE made and why in the world the books used to teach a subject that remains unchanged - math for example - need to be re-wrote, adjusted and complete new design books bought (for millions) each year.

Books wear out, and need to be replaced. But yes, it's a business too, and since schools are never doing well enough, publishers are always coming up with different books( "better curriculum" ), for when you get around to replacing them. There is competition. You came up with adding names like Pedro and Jamal to story problems as an example. Big deal. What change did it have ? Obviously it helped counter the argument that education is biased towards the white community. How ridiculous to suggest that if they are making a new edition anyway, that making the names more representative of what they would be out there is somehow corrupting our culture.

Model-B was a great student, loved learning, and went to school and kept learning. They then graduated and found out that they had no skills, no drive, no talent, but they felt they DESERVED to be paid for their DEGREE, so they went back into the school room as a teacher. Where they now transfer their lazy, angry, skilless, empty life to kids that have to be there. That is about 95% of the California teachers at this time.

There is no way that 95% of teachers fit this description. Not even 10% at my school, well maybe 10 to 20%. What you don't realize is that if a teacher fits this description, then the children would and do make their life hell.

Many people simply quit if they don't like it or can't cut it.

The school books of today do not carry a positive theme, they carry a liberal/leftist/socialist/anti-American/anti-God very much queer (not just the sexual kind) World Order theme. P.C. Police infected the young minds of the past and created the population (with a little help from drugs and porn) that is now willing to let America fall-- as the anti-AMerican, anti-God, progressive/liberal/leftist/socialists/communists knew they would back in the late 50's when they started their march to where we are now. Look around. Everything is 180* out of phase. If you do not see that, then your view has been spun too. While you have personally attacked a few times, vailed and not, I choose not too.

So if I "attack" like you did all Califonia teachers, that is because of liberal PC culture ?

No that's just my personality and my impatient reaction to what I see as off the charts ignorance and fear. You're a nice guy Bap, but I find your beliefs to be a very strong indictment against fundamentalism. I'm sure among the Taliban there are a lot of really nice guys too.

All fundamentalism is the work of Satan. It feeds your fear and hate. It is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. It may already have led to the downfall of this country by supporting our all time worst Presidents, Ronald Reagan and GWB.

Without the fundamentalist vote, many of whom are descendants of the KKK or of the John Birch society (hateful racist groups) neither of those idiots could have ever been elected.

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Bap33 2011 Jul 18, 4:07pm

no fear or hate here. just honesty and a firm grip on reality. Your fear and hate have your view twisted I guess?

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simchaland 2011 Jul 18, 5:04pm

Fundamentalism is the exact opposite of reality, honesty, and reason.

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marcus 2011 Jul 18, 5:44pm