patrick.net

Troy says

eg. people with money have connections, credit, and the luxury of being able to bounce back from multiple failures (cf Trump). Poor people have little of that.

It has always been that way. Rich always had more chances in life and more opportunities. That has never changed and never will. Yet, today if one is willing they can accomplish greatness from being a nobody. It is harder with more competition out there, but it is possible.

Hard work, is what the greatest generation was not afraid of. Today many people avoid it like plague.

Bap33 says

But, when you open that math book of any junior high kid you will see OBVIOUS installations of all three of those non-math items. Right? Right!

You must be drinking tonight because the lack of inhibition is causing you to show some truly scary ignorance. Wtf are you talking about ? Man, I've always respected your manners on here, which are better than mine, I dare say. But when your beliefs slip out, we find out how incredibly FAR FAR FAR FAR to the CRAZY CRAZY right you are.

You scare me very much for the future of our country Bap. They've got you by the soul. No offense, but thank your lucky stars you weren't born in Germany around 1910 or so. God only knows what they would have had you believing, and doing.

Bap33 says

Since math is your bag, I'll give ya a pass for reading comprendo-ing

I comprehended this.

Bap33 says

it gave them direct access to the youth to force upon them their leftist anti-God/American/Freedom queer way of thinking.

This implies that teachers, who are the ones with direct access would have to believe and teach these views, I'm sorry, force these views, on to children.

Sorry, I'm sure that teaching them your fear, hate and extremely twisted views would better prepare them for the coming fascist government that you apparently want so badly.

Secular humanism, ooooooh scary evil stuff.

marcus says

You must be drinking tonight

my surmise, too

God only knows what they would have had you believing, and doing.

The Nazis weren't doing more than the people wanted. Well, 60% of them or so.

There was a liberal left in that country (AFAIK centered mostly towards Hamburg and the Ruhr) whose leaders had been jailed and exiled starting in 1933, so they were dragged along for the ride.

The 1930 Federal election was interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_1930

Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD) 24.5%
National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) 18.3%
Communist Party of Germany (KPD) 13.1%
Centre Party (Z) 11.8%

The rest, 32%, were split among mostly reactionary right fringe parties (except for the 3.8% for the German Democratic Party, who were "progressive")

So right here we see the conservative have ~60% of the vote sewn up -- Nazis, Centre Party, and the fringe. The Centre Party was socially conservative and not revisionist WRT the Weimar constitutional order, but in 1933 they chose to throw the SPD under the bus and let Hitler have his Enabling Act, so he could do some housecleaning.

The KPD were the Naderite purity trolls of the era, them and the SPD never got along all that well since the SPD sold them down the river during the revolutionary birth of the Weimar Republic.

So in Germany, the sensible left was outnumbered and outgunned by the right. The left and center had around 50% but they couldn't coalition together to hold the Weimar system together.

This is what happened up in Canada recently and is probably what's going to happen here later this decade. I don't think this country is smart enough to figure out what's going down.

Nomograph says

It is FAR easier to succeed today then ever before in the entire history of mankind.

I wish this were true. If you are speaking in geological time, where "now" includes 15 or 40years ago, then yes. Or if you are talking about the prospects for the most intelligent and best educated in the sciences or engineering, then yes.

But if you think that it's "easier than ever before" now, for average intelligence people coming out of average colleges with majors in business or communications or liberal arts etc, then you aren't paying attention. We are still in a terrible recession.

But I will acknowledge that believing what you are saying would be the optimal belief to hold.

elliemae says

Our defense budget isn't about protecting our country. It's about spending ridiculous amounts of money on boondoggles and planes that don't work and military bases we don't need and equipment & electronics that don't work - and the lives of our young. The

Our education budget isn't about educating our youth. It's about employing asn many people as possible and padding the pockets of the teacher's unions.

zzyzzx says

padding the pockets of the teacher's unions

Says the angry misinformed right wing extremist.

What are the "teachers unions" to you ? Couldn't have have just said "the teachers." Yes, teachers these days are so coddled, and under-worked, and overpaid. It's a travesty.

Seriously--that's the biggest issue with some here? Teachers' unions? Sure there are some districts with overpaid teachers. Usually they are in very rich areas. And the people who live within their boundaries are probably happy to overpay them.

But with all the problems this country has, teachers' unions is the one that you choose to cry about? Are you kidding me?

For a profession that requires a master's degree and certification, teachers are not exactly overpaid. A NYC public school teacher starts off at aout $55,000. In contrast, a BigLaw associate starts at $160,000.

HousingWatcher says

A NYC public school teacher starts off at aout $55,000

That would be with a masters. Closer to $45,000 with only a bachelors degree.(look it up, the salary schedule is easy to find)

Your required to get a master's degree within 5 years of being hired, hence why I excluded the salary with only a BS. And I clearly inducated in my post that I was referring to those with a amsters degree.

@marcus,
I was not drinking. I very rarely drink at all and when I do it is whiskey, but I do not get drunk. I have never been drunk. I have never, ever been drunk. I have never smoked anything nor done any illegal drug. Asprin, Vicks, and very few pain meds after major surgery -- that's it. Thanks for asking.

I was refering to the changes put into school books by the PC Police to make sure all sexes and races were included in whatever way posible. And doing so was a pure political issue. So, all three items - sexes, races, and politics were pushed into the school system by the PC Police. The PC Police demanded crap like having word problems have more "ethnic" names and the drawings associated with them have more "ethnic" faces. The same system is used to have Adam and Steve be slipped into the school books too. Now, if you are going to suggest there is no effect from these changes being made, then you have to share why in the world the changes WERE made and why in the world the books used to teach a subject that remains unchanged - math for example - need to be re-wrote, adjusted and complete new design books bought (for millions) each year. Why is that? The books that were used to teach my dad, mom, me, my brother, and most of the over-40 crowd on here, did so with no trouble ..... but .... in my day the political message was American Patriotism. Almost everything depected in my school books was all about pro-AMerican, flags, heros, conservative normalcy, stuff like that. The school books of today do not carry a positive theme, they carry a liberal/leftist/socialist/anti-American/anti-God very much queer (not just the sexual kind) World Order theme. P.C. Police infected the young minds of the past and created the population (with a little help from drugs and porn) that is now willing to let America fall-- as the anti-AMerican, anti-God, progressive/liberal/leftist/socialists/communists knew they would back in the late 50's when they started their march to where we are now. Look around. Everything is 180* out of phase. If you do not see that, then your view has been spun too. While you have personally attacked a few times, vailed and not, I choose not too.

Teachers come in two obvious models - A & B:
Model-A was born to teach and the kids respond. THis person does not punch the time clock, but does what they can to put the information in the kid's mind. This person fully undrstands that there are more lessons being taught then the ones in the lesson planner. This person is a teacher for the kids and not the money. This person is not liked by Model-B teachers.
Model-B was a great student, loved learning, and went to school and kept learning. They then graduated and found out that they had no skills, no drive, no talent, but they felt they DESERVED to be paid for their DEGREE, so they went back into the school room as a teacher. Where they now transfer their lazy, angry, skilless, empty life to kids that have to be there. That is about 95% of the California teachers at this time. The EDUCATION SYSTEM is the problem in California because they have people acting as teachers that are not friggin teachers. It is set up now so that teachers are made of people that had the money or ability to gain a degree, and that shows the absurd lack of intellect in the system. The best teacher is very rarely the best student. They are two different roles. Two different personalties. If a person has enough money they can buy that degree. The currect system is flawed from it's roots. A great teacher is BORN, not created by some education system. BORN ... created that way by God ... just like all great teachers, coaches, preachers, artists, mechanics, writers ... they are BORN with something that allows them to relate to their subjects/tasks better than others. In the current educational system they have a mantality that equates to having the best player be the coach. Take 30 seconds in Google and you will find that the top ten best coaches in the professional ranks, or college ranks, of all time, were not the best player. Some were never players of the sport at all. The educational system is absurd because it is being mis-used. And, yes, teachers are way way way over-paid in 75% of cases. That whole thing about "degree and certified" is something the educational system drempt up. It carries no valid weight. THere is nothing about a masters or bacholers or any other degree that ensures a teacher will be any good at friggin teaching. All that degree shows is a good friggin STUDENT!! This is so frustrating at times. It' so easy to see from here, yet you folks sit on that side and don't see it. I guess that's just how things are supposed to go. And, yes, it is written that in the end times things will be 180* out of phase .. right wrong, good bad, ect.

I have had good teachers and bad teacher. If you have never noticed the difference, then that may be why you don't see the other bigger picture stuff too. ANd that would make sense.

In California the teacher union has a LAW on the books that guarentees them a raise every year for their first ten years of service after coming off probation. The teachers also get paid more for each certificate or degree they get from being a student. After a teacher is full time (12 months) it is very hard to remove them, no matter how horrible they are. Teacher's have no minimum results. If they show up, turn in the lesson plan, and every kid fails to grasp the information, the teacher is still paid in full. Most teahcers I know are married to other teachers. Teachers get every weekend off, every holiday, all summer, and get paid when weather closes school. What California teachers have become is Degree = Cash intitlement -- thanks to union money going to greed driven politicos. The largest employee group in my county is the school district. The larget employee group in every city in my county is the city schools. The average teacher pay in this county is 250% above average wages. That makes for a loud political voice when there is that much money held by one group.

Lets get some vouchers so the private schools with the strict discipline and non-degree teachers can be accessed by more people, and then we will see just how wasteful and uneffective the educational system in place now is, dollar for dollar. Who is against vouchers? Oh ya, that's right, public teacher union. Weird.

Ok, flame away. lol. By the way, were you drinking?

As for the topic, I think any company that can do their business in another state is doing so. I also think that any comapny that can do their business in California is doing so.

And you can replace "another state" and "California" with any other state or country or on-line, and it still is true in my opinion.

Nomograph says

The key to success is education, and don't ever let anyone tell you differently

Doc, you are correct. But, you have to remember that some folks on here equate "education" with "school room" or "school book", and I know that is not what you mean. I fully understand that you mean "education" in it's purest form, and you are correct. To get better at or learn anything requires full attention and full recall of all mistakes made previous -- and that's education. When anyone quits learning they are in trouble.

HousingWatcher says

Your required to get a master's degree within 5 years of being hired, hence why I excluded the salary with only a BS. And I clearly inducated in my post that I was referring to those with a amsters degree.

So? Just because one goes to college doesn't guarantee them a steady, high paying job anymore. Why should teachers be any different?

HousingWatcher says

For a profession that requires a master's degree and certification, teachers are not exactly overpaid. A NYC public school teacher starts off at aout $55,000. In contrast, a BigLaw associate starts at $160,000.

When you figure in that that's for 9 months of work, and lavish pensin benefits, annual raises, and full medical and dental with copays so low that they are unheard of in the private sector, that's a pretty sweet deal.

Zzyzzx - you forgot the biggest "perk" of all...TENURE.

HousingWatcher says

Your required to get a master's degree within 5 years of being hired, hence why I excluded the salary with only a BS. And I clearly inducated in my post that I was referring to those with a amsters degree.

thats for working only 9 month out of the year. Most people start at 40 to 45 grand and work 12 month.

Right, how much would you pay somebody to babysit a kid for 6 hours?

$40 to the girl next door, no?

How about babysitting 30+ kids for 6 hours?

$1200? Okay, we'll give a bulk discount of 75%, what a bargain! Call it $300.

How about not only babysit 30+ kids for 6+ hours, but actually get them to pay attention and learn something - enough so they all pass a standardized test at the end of the year and score as high as possible?

How much is THAT worth?

Not to mention, put up with parents who each think their kid is a combination young Einstein and baby Mark Spitz, who give them sugary pop-tarts washed down with Hi-C with 3 teaspoons of sugar before they drop them off with you?

yeah, there's no wealth-creation involved with teaching. What a dead loss. Kids should be feral.

I wonder if NY/NJ is in same boat

Troy says

Kids should be feral.

Nah, they should know just enough math to ring a register and count palettes of imported goods; and enough literacy to read the shelving circular.

Only those who have already proven their superior worth to society by organizing SIVs, MBS tranches, filing overbroad patent lawsuits to hassle entrepreneurs, and incorporating Cayman Island holding companies - aka "Creating Wealth" - need send their kids for a true quality education.

Anything more would be Red Socialism.

EMan says

HousingWatcher says

Your required to get a master's degree within 5 years of being hired, hence why I excluded the salary with only a BS. And I clearly inducated in my post that I was referring to those with a amsters degree.

thats for working only 9 month out of the year. Most people start at 40 to 45 grand and work 12 month.

Just curious-- If being a teacher is such a great deal, why didn't you go into teaching?

Wow, and in two years I am moving on from the military to work on a MAEd using my GI Bill. I want to take a low rate salary and work on improving our children's education. I am a gluton for punishment!

Seeing the resentment out there is sad. I am not a teacher so I can't tell you what the struggles are. I am sure poor areas have more societal issues than teacher performance issues, but that is a guess.

I know one thing; blaming teachers for poor education is like blaming a private for the failings of a war. I believe we could do a better job so I am determined to jump in and see what I can change.

tatupu70 says

EMan says

HousingWatcher says

Your required to get a master's degree within 5 years of being hired, hence why I excluded the salary with only a BS. And I clearly inducated in my post that I was referring to those with a amsters degree.

thats for working only 9 month out of the year. Most people start at 40 to 45 grand and work 12 month.

Just curious-- If being a teacher is such a great deal, why didn't you go into teaching?

Yes, why don't you do that Eman?

My father was a high school English teacher fo 35 years+ in Illinois. All of you ignorant fools who bash teachers have no clue what goes into being a teacher and how much work it actually is. My father was ALWAYS working, even in the Summer. But the summer work was unpaid.

Let me explain. Teaching isn't a job you leave at the office, if you are at all good at it and even if you don't go that much above and beyond the requirements of doing your job. On his "off hours" my Dad always had papers to grade, parents to call, students questions to answer (Yes he was available to students through email. He even created his own website for his classes so that the students had access to all study materials online and could reach him outside of class time for help.), lessons to plan, and classes to take for continuing education required to keep his teaching license. If I couldn't sleep and I'd get up at about 3:00am, I'd get up to find him working. He even went in on Saturdays during while school was in session to run a workshop for his students so that they could come in and get extra in-person help.

Summers were not for "lounge around" time. It was time for him to clean and organize his classroom for the next year. It was time to plan a new year's worth of lessions. He would often take continuing education classes during this time because his schedule was more free. Also my Dad took extra work after earning a few more masters degrees and certificates to do curriculum development at the District and State levels. This work was year-round, including Summers. Most of this was work he wasn't paid to do.

Of course some of my Dad's friends were teachers too and they had similar work ethics and seemed to never really be "off" during their "free time."

It's become popular to bash teachers these days such that it's become cliché. Yes there are bad teachers, just like in any profession there are always people who suck at their job. Most teachers, on the other hand, aren't the caricatures that the teacher bashers create without thinking or knowing any teachers personally.

My Dad's worked anywhere from 60-70 hours each week for 40 hours worth of pay for 9-10 months out of the year. My Dad happened to be an exceptional teacher. I know this because I always ran into his former students who always gushed about him. And when he died the wake and the funeral were full of people who we didn't know who knew my Dad through working with him or having been students of his. The funeral train was almost 2 miles long. The Chicago Tribune and Daily Herald ran articles about my Dad and his accomplishments that were unsolicited by the family.

Not all teachers are exceptional. Even the average ones put in more hours than the simple 40 hours for which they get paid. And they work during the Summer without pay to prepare for the next year.

So, yeah, I guess I take all of the latest teacher bashing personally. My Dad was so busy I almost didn't know he was there sometimes. He was at work 6 days per week. On Sundays he was often in his at home office working. He did take time in summers to be with us for a few weeks for summer camp and vacations (when I was young we didn't go on vacations because we couldn't afford it because of how crappy his pay was as a new teacher back in the 70's and early 80's). In fact when I was really young he took summer jobs beyond the work he was doing unpaid for the school so that we could afford the basics.

Yes, I have fond memories of my Dad, and I'm very proud to be his son. But, because his work was so all-consuming, he wasn't always there. Believe it or not, even with that crazy work ethic, he was present at soccer games, swim meets, Boy Scouts, etc. But he wasn't always there for the day-to-day stuff. And when he was he was often passed-out asleep because of the energy expended for his profession.

So, yes, I take it personally when people who have no clue what teachers actually do or how they live and how it affects their families bash all teachers indiscriminately without qualification.

ppexx says

I have lived in both areas and for Cali will soon be Detroit with good weather

I doubt it. If you ever lived in California, you probably wouldn't call it Cali. Only rappers do that.

HousingWatcher says

I too agree that govt. spending is bad EMan. WHich is why I have personally wrote a letter to Obama telliing him to stop sending all Social Security checks to your parents and not to send a single one to you when your 65.

Also, I am rescinding all of your tax deductions and tax credits, and any other tax preferences. From now on, you only pay the marginal rates on your gross income.

thunderlips11 says

How about babysitting 30+ kids for 6 hours?

$1200? Okay, we'll give a bulk discount of 75%, what a bargain! Call it $300.

How about not only babysit 30+ kids for 6+ hours, but actually get them to pay attention and learn something - enough so they all pass a standardized test at the end of the year and score as high as possible?

How much is THAT worth?

You're misstating this. Studies show that *good* teachers are worth quite a bit more. Good teacher should be a paid a lot more. A lot more of the riff raff should not be getting yearly increases just for seniority and just because the union says so.

The problem is in the middle of the extreme viewpoints here. Older teachers get huge benefits from the teacher's union. They get massive pensions, great healthcare, etc. The young teachers get screwed because of incompetent teachers with seniority, lower pay, no pension, fewer benefits. As usual, it's the boomers forcing their costs onto future generations.

I agree with you about the union not being perfect, either.

They often layoff 2-3 younger teachers to keep one older teacher. Or cut 4-5 down to part time and drop whole subjects, like French. And like you say, not all older teachers are fonts of wisdom. Some of them are simply gliding along to let the clock run out.

I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that even if teachers are glorified babysitters, they still offer a bargain vs. private child care.

Ugh, you know... Really, do any one of you know any teachers personally? Are any one of you in education? Do any you actually know what's really going on in the schools in your neighborhood? Do any of you get involved with your local PTA or even your local schools?

If not, then you are talking out of your a**es.

If you aren't involved, you don't know what is going on, really. Oh you see opinion pieces in your local rags, you see "stories" on your crummy corporately controlled local tee vee station, and you hear talk radio hosts talking out of their a**es about teachers and education. You really don't know anything about what truly happens at schools unless you get involved.

Again, there are bad examples in any bunch. Teachers are no exception. But really, how do y'all actually know what you are talking about when it comes to teachers, the quality of instruction, the administration of your schools, or how the unions work with the schools and disctricts?

If you have kids in school currently. Your best bet is to actually get involved in the school where your child attends. That way you actually meet the teachers, administrators, and the principal. You show the school you really care about what kind of education your child is receiving. Your child benefits by seeing that you place a value on his or her education. And then you know what's really going on in education currently and can have intelligent discussions about policy. Then you can vote with real understanding when education initiatives show up on the ballot and district officers are being elected.

If you are the typical knee-jerk opinionated blow hard parent who barely makes it to a parent-teacher conference and who couldn't give a rat's a** what your child is studying, you know squat about what is actually going on in education. Also you are a terrible parent.

My wife was a teacher. She taught in a rural school district in Oregon where they had just been busted by the state not having English classes for the kids of Central American farmworkers. They had a teacher's aide without a bachelor's basically running a classroom of 34 kids and trying to teach them English; the rest of the day they were immersed in regular classes, which were completely over their heads as they spoke next to no English. That's how she landed the job when the Recession began. It helped to be a native Spanish speaker, too.

They let several of her younger colleagues go, to save some of the time-punchers. The kids cried when she quit, but it's hard to keep a $32k/year job when you are offered $45k to teach adults - a much easier audience that generally can sit still for less than an hour.

Closer to home, the union tried to pull a stunt where they wanted to layoff some younger teachers from the entire district, rather than give up a few paid holidays.

So you had people in their 40s and early 50s making $80+k a year, preferring to have a few paid holidays than show some solidarity in helping to keep the younger folks' jobs who make less than half as much.

When the local paper ran the story, there was outrage, from other teachers and parents and the whole community. The negotiating stance was quickly withdrawn.

The ones who are the time-punchers are the ones careful enough to make sure they're close to the decision-makers involved. Usual politics in any organization.

Yes, that's politics. And, I know for a fact that what you just wrote doesn't happen in every district, let alone all of them.

I just get tired of the generalizations that get thrown around about education and educators by people who have no clue.

simchaland says

Ugh, you know... Really, do any one of you know any teachers personally? Are any one of you in education? Do any you actually know what's really going on in the schools in your neighborhood? Do any of you get involved with your local PTA or even your local schools?

If not, then you are talking out of your a**es.

Yes. Yes. Yes. and exactly !

Thank you Simcha.

simchaland says

Yes, that's politics. And, I know for a fact that what you just wrote doesn't happen in every district, let alone all of them.

Right. In a union with active and diverse age membership, such a proposal would have never dared been put forward and no school with an awake union would have tolerated violating state law about non-English speaking kids. These problems were caused by a lack of participation in the union to begin with.

corntrollio says

A lot more of the riff raff should not be getting yearly increases just for seniority and just because the union says so.

It is my understanding that the automatic annual increase is not union, but it is a State Law. And absolutly nuts.

@Sim,
My comments were supposed to be aimed at the complex and not the indiviual. We agree about many things.
Point #1 where we agree: A good teacher is a special person first, a teacher second. Most good parents are also good teachers. I am a great parent, my dad was a great parent, as was his dad and his dad and his dad and his dad and his dad and his dad. But, I am not a great parent because I read a book or heard a professor lecture about parenting. Plus, I'm not a good parent because my dad was. I am a good parent because I was BORN with the stuff that makes good parents. It just can't be taught. All that can be taught is the THEROY and the PROCESS. But, in the real world the results from applied theroy and process whenever people are involved just plain suck. That's what goes on in the making of teachers today and it does not work.

Your dad was not a product of today's California Educational Force. He sounds like many of the teachers I had, ones that were natural born teachers. They never used theroy and process. They used their God given abilities and applied themselves.

Point #2: We agree that people doing what they are ment to do is seen in their efforts. Anyone that is good at anything they do, will not start and stop on a clock. They are always thinking and planning and wondering about their tasks ahead. That is what great people do. Mediocre people do only the minimums and then bitch about the agressive ones passing them for a promotion. That is why the unions made up such stupid rules as seniority in advancement. That one ideal, that lone rule, is the very best example of proof that a union group is not focused on the very best workforce for their employers. The best person for a job is the best person for a job ... the longest employed person may not be that person. Seniority is stuuupid, whith respect to anything but the best parking spots.

On the issue you mention about long hours you have to be careful about stuff like that, and I'll explain why. If someone is just a poor planner, but damned determined to have a great plan, that person will take more time to develop their great plan. And there are folks that can think on the fly and have a great plan in a flash (that would be me). So, when you mention the loads of time that your Dad put into his tasks there is a kind-of double edged sword there. While it is very possible, and I'll even say likely, that you Dad was going the extra mile at the expense of personal time, it is also possible that he was talking longer just doing the needful things that others get done in a timely fashion, and the end result was he had to work extra to get the stuff done. Now, listen, I am not saying that as a negative. It is a positive because the moral here is he did what it took to do the very best he could. I am just suggesting that time management or productivity rates can very between folks. My job is a constant on my mind -- even when I'm on here sparring. lol

Point #3: We agree, If someone does not have kids, or does have kids but does not get involved, then they should be quiet on school matters other than budget. I have kids. I am very involved. Of my kid's trek through school thus far- 50% of the HS teachers I've experienced so far are a shame, 30% ok, 20% born to teach. K to 6th have been 90% great, 5% ok, 5% crap. For some reason 7th and 8th were total bombs. I mean complete junk. Of the early years, I'd say 2nd and 3rd had great teachers, both in the private Christian School environment and in the public school environment. We have tried both.

I know a few teachers personally. Some I have known since we were in grammer school together. Only a couple are good teachers. One of the great ones is a dude, and a Gemorran, and super funny, and full of energy, and has next year ready when this year ends, and would do the job for alot less money (his exact words). He is in N.LasVegas and has some tuff kids (8th grade). I pick him to share for obvious reasons. But, he really is a natural BORN teacher. His dad was too, and was a great guy. My point is, great teachers possess the right tools to have their students respond and those tools come at birth, not from sitting in a classroom. In my opinion, the higher learning classroom is too far left to be good for America's future.

Vouchers would help shine a light on the great teachers too. They deserve it.

thunderlips11 says

They let several of her younger colleagues go, to save some of the time-punchers.

I don't know the specifics, but there are usually more than one frame of reference in these situations. (By the way we took 7 furlough days last year, 5 the year before)

But about that frame of reference. A union doesn't want want to give up hard earned raises, knowing they will have to fight for years to get them back, and knowing that management can play accounting tricks to make any claim they wish to make.

According to your reasoning, all the upper administrator (in their 6 figure jobs) have to do is work the accounting to where they can say (showing numbers) these lower level people will have to be laid off unless you all take a pay cut. Sounds awfully easy to me.

Why does anyone ever get laid off in any company EVER ? When you can say that the other employees who weren't laid off could have gotten together and taken pay cuts to help avoid the layoffs ?

You have to be careful, because there are always different ways of describing the same situation depending on your bias and agenda. It's not always easy to discern what's really going on.

But in any case, States have been hurting big time, and a lot of teachers have taken cuts, and a lot have been laid off, and class sizes have gone from way too big to ridiculously big.

And on top of the pain, teachers have to listen to all the no nothing experts on education. Well, I don't have to do I.

simchaland says

Really, do any one of you know any teachers personally?

Uh, yeah, one of my in-laws is one of the privileged people with seniority who got in before all of the changes that screwed the younger people and freely admits it.

He has also told me much about the "rubber room" procedures where teachers that should be fired, but aren't because of the union, are kept.

I personally would be for increasing teacher pay as long as they give up tenure and allow the crappy teachers to be fired. The good teachers are worth far more than the union scale allows them to be paid.

corntrollio says

The good teachers are worth far more than the union scale allows them to be paid.

great point

Instead of solely blaming teachers, maybe we should be looking at the higher ups as well. Perhaps we should be blaming education "reformers" like Michelle Rhee who through their high stakes testing approach have turned our schools into a high stakes poker game.

I'm only continuing this to prove the point that there are exceptional teachers out there. We only seem to hear about the bad ones. That's not "fair and balanced."

Bap33 said, "Your dad was not a product of today's California Educational Force. He sounds like many of the teachers I had, ones that were natural born teachers. They never used theroy [sic] and process. They used their God given abilities and applied themselves."

You didn't know my Dad so I'm not taking this personally. He loved theory and process. He loved the educational process. He studied it avidly. He used theory and process in everything he did. Good teachers use both their innate abilities and they use theory and process to improve their skills and methods.

Bap33 said, "If someone is just a poor planner, but damned determined to have a great plan, that person will take more time to develop their great plan. And there are folks that can think on the fly and have a great plan in a flash... While it is very possible, and I'll even say likely, that you Dad was going the extra mile at the expense of personal time, it is also possible that he was talking longer just doing the needful things that others get done in a timely fashion, and the end result was he had to work extra to get the stuff done. Now, listen, I am not saying that as a negative. It is a positive..."

This does border on an insult that I don't think you intended. Again, you didn't know my Dad. He was a genius. (Winning any kind of argument with him was almost impossible for this kid.) He was a quick thinker and an excellent planner. He had it all. He was just an intense workaholic who really loved what he did. He never wasted time. We had to sift through reems of complicated theory, curriculum plans, curriculum development, essays, etc. when he died. The man had 4 laptops filled to the brim with documents he created to improve not only his own teaching, but to instruct others on how to be great teachers. Also they were filled to the brim with work from at least 2 of his 4 masters degrees.

Again, yes, he had innate talents. And he always strived to improve his skills and to teach others within his profession how they can improve by instructing them on his mistakes, successes, his theories, and the process of how he developed his methods. He recorded everything. He was an encyclopedia of knowledge and the vast body of his work was staggering.

The man was a master multi-tasker. While he worked 60-80 hours at his profession (most weeks), he also attended soccer games, Boy Scout camps and meetings, swim meets, took us to the theater, movies, had picnics, taught us canoeing, etc. He wasn't "just a teacher" at his school. He ran the concessions stands for the athletic department and was a girl's track coach. And he was constantly going to school, hence the 4 masters degrees. He always felt learning was a life long process (yes, a process). He attended to multiple family emergencies while balancing all of this (he had to think on his feet a lot).

Dad was also a spontaneous person in so many ways. He had it all, I dare say. He could plan like no one else and he could be fantastically quick, decisive, and spontaneous.

A great teacher is someone who has both innate qualities that make him or her a great teacher, and who learns through practice, theory, and the process of education to master their skills. And after that, he or she goes back to school to build on their successes and learn from their mistakes.