patrick.net

Bap33 says

No race card here.

I believe you, it's a difference in definition. They consider themselves other than "white" at least until a couple or three generations later. There is some subtlety and complexity to this. By my definitions you have have a very racist view. I understand that by yours you don't. It's just a word. It implies prejudice, generalizations, erroneous and overly simplified conclusions, and often a lot of inappropriate emotions tied to faulty "logic." It's not so much about whether we are technically talking about another race or not.

But it is something we would probably be best off not hashing out here.
You aren't even going to change my mind about whether it's racist, let alone whether your inferences are generally correct or not.

Bap33 says

No race card here.

Bap33 says

negro, asain, Language and culture have been destroyed, the sect we are talking about, economic collapse and social upheaval along with a very uncomfotable life for those who try to resist the invaders...

You present as racist. You truly do. If that's not your goal, you may want to change the way that you come across.

Food stamps allow people to live in wealthier areas? Really?

copy that ellie

HW, I did not mention WIC or ADC .... that EBT card is cash in hand to spend as wished, so your point may be off mark a bit. But, to a point, YES access to food aide would/should allow a person to spend more in other places, housing being one. If your meals were all paid for it would effect your housing budget too.

Bap33 says

a knocked up teen is a cash cow and a free ticket to the good side of town.

a knocked up teen that just crossed a border is even a bigger ticket. I remember when I was young and our neighbor was living on welfare, government paid their housing, their utilities, their food, and they actually made more money than me because they worked for cash and paid 0 taxes while all their expenses were paid for by everyone who paid taxes.

CA abuses it's labor and working class.

Food stamps (EBT cards) can only be spent for food, and certain foods aren't allowed. There's abuse, as there is with everything.

For every action, there's a equal and opposite reaction. I read that somewhere, this one time (in band camp).

I can see why people have a problem with welfare recipients, because they only see the bad side of it. Success stories aren't newsworthy. I've seen my share of abuse - but I've seen sooooooooooooooooooooooo many people who are helped by welfare programs.

The hardest thing for me is to see seniors on food stamps, living in public housing or S8 housing. I've seen so many people hit hard by the economy - and have personally met many Madoff vicitms. More people are bringing their family members home rather than place them in nursing homes because they can't afford to lose the senior's income to the household.

It's bad out there. And I didn't have a point other than that.

Food stamps and EBT cards are the exact same thing.

elliemae says

Food stamps (EBT cards) can only be spent for food, and certain foods aren't allowed. There's abuse, as there is with everything.

100% wrong. It is used as a cash withdraw card at ATM's and can just be swiped for cash at any supermarket as well as the Indian casinos. Sorrry, but on this one you are 100% incorrect.

HousingWatcher says

"HW, I did not mention WIC or ADC .... that EBT card is cash in hand to spend as wished, so your point may be off mark a bit."
Food stamps and EBT cards are the exact same thing.

100% incorrect. Wrong. Those EBT are cash-in-hand. Period. Next!!

E-man, I forgot about the power and phone being paid too. Good point.

ellie, I agree with you.
If the resources were used as inteded, there would be enough to help the aged American's more than we help them now. People just refuse to accept the added burdan from the inva... -- ummm -- perminent-uninvited-non-residences that came after Prop 187 was illegally blocked, and their breeding, that eclipses all productive Americans by far.

read this EBT site please: https://www.ebt.ca.gov/caebtclient/usebenefit.jsp

lol ... this proof stuff is kinda fun:

Gambling on the Suckas Dime

From the LA Times: California welfare cards can be used in many casino ATMs

"Reporting from Sacramento — California welfare recipients are able to use state-issued debit cards to withdraw cash on gaming floors in more than half of the casinos in the state, a Los Angeles Times review of records found.

The cards, provided by the Department of Social Services to help recipients feed and clothe their families, work in automated teller machines at 32 of 58 tribal casinos and 47 of 90 state-licensed poker rooms, the review found."

Sorry BAP; we were both correct. In California cash & ebt are the same. Not in my state.

http://www.ebtproject.ca.gov/faq.aspx

Food stamp monies are different; there are restrictions on what can be spent for food stamp (SNAP) purposes, including alcohol, non-food items, etc.

http://www.ehow.com/list_7319938_restrictions-purchases-using-food-stamps_.html

So far as power & phone being paid, there are concessions made for phone & power when it comes to public housing programs. Working for a housing authority, I saw many people who received a refund check every month with which to pay their utilities and their rent was free.

This isn't the norm. And there are many, many people waiting for public housing programs - the lists are long and ain't no assistance while they're waiting.

ellie, cool.

Did you know the Cal issued EBT can be spent anywhere in the friggin nation?? Insane!!

Also, the power and gas company charges extra to folks that pay their bill to off-set those who don't, or have reduced fee. I found it on my bill, got all pissed, read it on line, and got really pissed because it was not the power and gas company doing it, but a state law telling them to do it. That kinda sucks.

I have some folks that I take care of their water bill and show up with fruits and veggies when they are in season since I get them for free all the time. I also gave them all of my older clothing and my kids old/out grown toys and clothes. I do what I can, I feel quilty for not doing more, but I know that handing money to Gov to have them dole out as they see fit is a very bad system. People would give more if they had more to give, and people getting the aide would have a local hand to shake and a way to express gratitude, not to mention a little bit more accountiblity for behavior - if you know what I'm saying.

When I have coffee at the cafe before work, I regularly buy for a retired guy or two, when one's there at the same time. It's no big deal to me, but to them it can't hurt. Random acts of kindness.

Bap33 says

Did you know the Cal issued EBT can be spent anywhere in the friggin nation?? Insane!!

Yes - it's common for people who live in the western states to use a Calif address in order to qualify for more benefits. Calif pays more into the SSI, food stamps, etc systems than Nevada, Utah, Arizona, etc.

Ya'll need to revamp your welfare laws.

Bap, that's nuts man.

Explains why when I was in Eugene, there would be all these Jalopies full of hoodrats w/ California plates pulling up to gas stations buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards, something I couldn't figure out as "Oregon Trail" cards don't allow that. I think they were all on their way to Seattle.

thunderlips11 says

California plates pulling up to gas stations buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards

Christ.

I was told the Oregon welfare sucks, that's why my half-sister came back to Cal to have her 5th kid on our dime ... no, I am not joking. He's 9 now. Oldest is 34. She is 51.

Yep, I forgot to add Oregon to that list. California is awesome for drawing benefits, but certainly not for living on them. That's why people live in cheaper states, and show up to California once a year to extend their benefits.

thunderlips11 says

buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards

I guess food stamps have come a long way. My family was on food stamps for 2 years when my parents couldn't get work. I remember how embarrassing it was as a kid. I also remember that horrible government cheese we got in the 1980’s. However, I don’t see beer, tobacco, or gas as an item that can be purchased in that program. Unless they are using their cards to get cash and then purchasing the items.

Troy says

thunderlips11 says

California plates pulling up to gas stations buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards

Christ.

really opens your eyes, doesn't it?

Truthplease says

Unless they are using their cards to get cash and then purchasing the items

or drugs, or sex, or casino chips, of candy, cell phones, or Ipods, or fancey wheels on their ride, of MP3, or nails, or fake boobs, or viagra, or big TV's, or whateverinthefucktheywantbecasuetheyhavenovalueinthefreecashleverthathasbeenhandedtothembytheleftistprogressivesinfavorofwealthredistribution.

G.E. is moving its X-ray division to China, thereby avoiding oppressive taxes, burdensome regulations, parasitic unions, predatory lawsuits and a hostile business environment.

"Regulations" always distort the market creating unintended, negative consequences - oops.

@Abe

"Oppressive, burdensome, parasitic, predatory and hostile."

It would be better if instead of relocating, they could time travel 170 years
back and use slaves, right here in the U.S.. But if they could and did do that, I think you would maybe want to change your choice of words.

Honest Abe says

G.E. is moving its X-ray division to China

Now when my X-Ray machine errors out and gives me a lethal overdose, my family can try to sue a bunch of Chinese subcontractors. Awesome! I'm so glad they are making best use of GE tax benefits to offshore jobs, layoff Americans, and enrich communists. Everything seems going according to the Koch Brothers plan nicely.

Honest Abe says

G.E. is moving its X-ray division to China, thereby avoiding oppressive taxes, burdensome regulations, parasitic unions, predatory lawsuits and a hostile business environment.
"Regulations" always distort the market creating unintended, negative consequences - oops.

Sure. I mean what was GE's tax bill this year? And of course, Jeffrey Immelt was appointed to the President’s Economic Recovery Advisory Board. I am sure there is no undue influence there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?pagewanted=all

We have "separation of church and state" and might need to think about "separation of business/corporation and state."

Although bussiness has already departed from the entire nation and moving production overseas. That is a threat to our country when you can't build anything at home anymore.

http://blogs.forbes.com/beltway/2011/02/14/intelligence-community-fears-u-s-manufacturing-decline/
http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/11/0203/intelligence.html

Agreed...so wouldn't the solution be: smaller government, lower taxes, fewer regulations, regulations and restraints on Unions, regulations and restraints on Lawyers and a more friendly business environment?

If businesses got what they wanted here (The US/California)why go over there (another state or country)????

Because as I said a dozen times before, labor in developing countries like China is 30 cents an hour vs. $10 + an hour in the U.S.

no EPA
no CARB
no Air Pollution Control District
no AFLCIO
no Teamsters
no OSHA
no Industrial Labor Law
no Affirmitive Action
no GLAD compliance
no Maternity Leave law
no Fraternity Leave law
no Handicap Access law
no Obama mandated health care.
no fear of being sued for bogus horseshit like WalMart, K-Mart, Savemart, Sears, and every other big corp gets sued for here.

.... would someone please affix a "Conservative" and a "Liberal" to each of those things I listed so we may all give thanks where thanks is due.

Everything having to do with the environment seems to be associated with liberals. But I can 100% guarantee you that to many it is very conservative.

One day, in the not so distant future, environmental concerns will be considered a conservative cause by everyone. The only reason it isn't now is because of how politically fucked up this country is, and how stupid and brainwashed many of our citizens are. If only somehow protecting the environment had bigger short term rewards. If only more huge corporations could somehow cash in on environmental protection.

(I know, I know, the worst polluting is done by other countries now, as is manufacturing. Aint that a kick in the %^$##)

Bap's got a good point! Those are all liberal programs... to my knowledge at least. They sure sound liberal. We *could* fix them all ... but with our budget issues as they are I think this is too expensive. Besides, bleeding heart liberals would whine if the government didn't protect them from 'cold-hearted' coorporations motivated only by increasing profits. Better to just re-instate slavery - with a solid slave trade, we could entice these large corps back to the US. Then the trickle down effect would come into play and we'd all be wealthy. Except the slaves ... but that's their fault/problem.

We can even save money on some jobs ... by using handicap people as slaves rather than importing slaves from elsewhere.

Bap33 says

no EPA
no CARB
no Air Pollution Control District
no AFLCIO
no Teamsters
no OSHA
no Industrial Labor Law
no Affirmitive Action
no GLAD compliance
no Maternity Leave law
no Fraternity Leave law
no Handicap Access law
no Obama mandated health care.
no fear of being sued for bogus horseshit like WalMart, K-Mart, Savemart, Sears, and every other big corp gets sued for here.

.... would someone please affix a "Conservative" and a "Liberal" to each of those things I listed so we may all give thanks where thanks is due.

Why not just openly convert to Fascism and be done with it. That's what you are talking about. The "Right of Kings" extended to corporations. Want to dump dioxin in my river at night? Yes sir, I'll gladly help dig the trench for the pipe and I totally understand your need for a tongue bath of your hindquarters. As ApocalypseFuck so eloquently put it, the nobility should be able to murder if it wants to just for fun. After all what's the point of being at the top of the pyramid otherwise?

Bap, good job in listing the underlying causes of a hostile business environment in California. In reality, layer upon layer of regulations are exactly what makes California companies non-competitive when compared to business friendly states or even business friendly countries...which is why they are leaving the state.

You do know the same thing is happening in other states with excessive taxes and regulations like Illinois and New York don't you?

Ah, to be liberal, and believe that Utopia can be obtained if only they tax successful people enough and force them to pay their "fair share". In other words - steal from one group and hand it over to a different "more deserving" group.

Honest Abe says

In other words - steal from one group and hand it over to a different "more deserving" group.

Time for me to again share some great John Kenneth Galbriath quotes:

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. "

"The conspicuously wealthy turn up urging the character building values of the privation of the poor."

"The enemy of the conventional wisdom is not ideas but the march of events. "

"The great dialectic in our time is not, as anciently and by some still supposed, between capital and labor; it is between economic enterprise and the state."

"We can safely abandon the doctrine of the eighties, namely that the rich were not working because they had too little money, the poor because they had much."

John Kenneth Galbraith

Honest Abe says

G.E. is moving its X-ray division to China, thereby avoiding oppressive taxes, burdensome regulations, parasitic unions, predatory lawsuits and a hostile business environment.

GE has union workers in its X-ray division? I call BS. I also call BS on predatory lawsuits. These are just talking points that you'd use no matter what company in what industry was moving an HQ.

If you follow this industry, this has everything to do with achieving double-digit growth in marketing low-feature and more affordable healthcare technology in the developing world. The U.S. market is already saturated with the high-end stuff. This will be the growing trend for healthcare technology -- there are many people in developing countries looking for cheaper ways to improve healthcare, and they want the cheap and basic machines, not the full-featured machines we have here.

GE Healthcare has 60,000 employees, and they have 120 currently in Wisconsin, and will hire 65 in China. I'm not saying GE is a saintly company, but let's not pretend this is a large scale move.

Honest Abe says

Bap, good job in listing the underlying causes of a hostile business environment in California. In reality, layer upon layer of regulations are exactly what makes California companies non-competitive when compared to business friendly states or even business friendly countries

Nonsense, other than CARB, what items that bap listed are unique to California? CARB technically applies in more than just California these days, by the way. What specific California regulations do you think are problematic?

HousingWatcher says

Because as I said a dozen times before, labor in developing countries like China is 30 cents an hour vs. $10 + an hour in the U.S.

That's just a made-up number, but you are correct that there is a labor cost advantage. However, the overall cost advantage for manufacturing goods for the US in China is disappearing as labor costs and other costs go up in China due to economic prosperity. I have posted in another thread an article from the Economist describing that consultants think that in 2015, manufacturers could be neutral between the US and China with respect to manufacturing US-bound goods. Some people suggest Vietnam and other cheaper countries, but none of those countries ever built up the support structure like China.

Asking which regulations are "problematic" is like asking which straw finally broke the camels back.

They're all problematic, especially when they get piled one on top of another...local ordinances, city regulations, county taxes, state "mandates", Federal laws, on and on and on. But go ahead, pretend like it doesn't exist and keep explaining away the obvious.

Honest Abe says

Asking which regulations are "problematic" is like asking which straw finally broke the camels back.

As in, you can't name anything or explain why it would be a problem, and you just want to complain without being called on your BS? What specific local ordinances, city regulations, and state "mandates" (not sure why it's in quotes) do you think are most important? Which county taxes are you referring to?

Come on, if there are so many, this should be incredibly easy. It shouldn't even be a challenge. Just pick the most important and explain why they hurt business.

Honest Abe says

They're all problematic

Pesky child labor laws, who needs 'em?

@Vincent,
I was trying to point out some issues that AMerican Companies have to deal with that Chineese Companies do not. I was not trying to say full non-regulation is good, but obviously, too much regualtion can be detramental. That was how Obama warned the coal industry .. "you can build a plant, but you will go broke trying to run it" .. or something like that. He dared the coal folks to have a coal fired power plant (I think that's how it went down).