patrick.net

@ Zakrajshek....

The Soviet Union tried your ideas and that didnt work out so well for them.
Everything private runs more efficient and offers a better value than anything ever put forward by government. All private parks, roads, universities are more efficient and have better quality.

The idea of government sounds great on paper, but immoral people always find their way to the top and the people pay either through force, taxes or inflation. The people always loose when they assume government is the answer.

The monopolies are immoral people, not the Free Market system. Kill the Free Market and you will kill incentive and creativity.

^ Norway has a national oil company. They're not communists. They have over $100,000 per household saved up in their national pension plan thanks to that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

The State of North Dakota runs its own bank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_North_Dakota

They are not communist.

We have Social Security insurance. We are not communists.

England has state-run health system. They are not communists.

No, you do not know what communism is.

Ron Paul Fan says

Everything private runs more efficient and offers a better value than anything ever put forward by government.

Aahh hah ahah ah ha ahaha.

All private parks, roads, universities are more efficient and have better quality.

For those who can afford them.

Ron Paul Fan says

For mail, the Free Market has chosen free email over a the $.44 alternative from USPS. Free Market baby!

You ever send a plain letter with FedEx or UPS? I don't think so. You can count, and you know the difference between $10 and 44 cents.

But what both the right and the left can agree on is that our system of bribery kills the free market and raises prices for everything.

No company needs to serve the customer well if that can just eliminate your cheaper options by law, and trap you that way. Great for profits for the oligarcy though!

Debt-free Renter says

I really don't know why you think politicians are little fluffy bunny rabbits that if we could only keep the nasty bribers away from, things would be okay.

Sure, the money would still try to slither in under the door, but at least we could slow it down a lot. The problem is HUGE and it's clear how to fix it. Publicy funded campaigns and a ban on donations are a good answer.

I do think that a lot of Congressmen really want to to do right thing, but they just don't have a choice with the way campaigns are funded right now. If the other guy is getting big bribes, he has to take that money too or he will lose.

And when he takes that money from Vito Corleone, you know for sure Vito is going to expect a little help with his pet legislation project in return. Who loses? You do.

As for state banks, ND is pretty sweet. Now please show me who the moral people of DC are so they can implement this banking system.

England healthcare is BROKE! I ahve a friend on FB in England, bitching about it as we speak. Again immoral people have screwed it up.

SS is BROKE! its a Ponzi scheme!

We already have a government run bank, its called Goldman Sachs.... with a twist, they OWN the government employees.

If Americans were to ever wake up and realize the biggest enemy is from within, The Federal Reserve. The Fed prints the money to buy the printed bonds, the printed dollars are used for contracts to the people who fund campaigns. We need to turn off the printing presses. Its why Americans are loosing the fight to inflation. The Fed is the single, most destructive thing to Liberty.

Get educated... www.RonPaul2012.com

So if the real cost to mail a letter is $10, then the Post Office is a bunch of morons only charging $.44 The Post Office is only cheap because we pay a ton in taxes and inflation to support it!

England healthcare is BROKE! I ahve a friend on FB in England, bitching about it as we speak. Again immoral people have screwed it up.

LOL. England's NHS is part of the government so it alone can't be "broke".

Prior to the financial crash, UK had a government debt burden of 60%, so they were in better shape than us financially.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=2uW

SS is BROKE! its a Ponzi scheme!

LOL. Yet another rightwing nutjob who parrots rightwing talking points on the internet. This is my surprised face.

Ron Paul Fan says

So if the real cost to mail a letter is $10, then the Post Office is a bunch of morons only charging $.44 The Post Office is only cheap because we pay a ton in taxes and inflation to support it!

No, the real cost to mail a letter is not $10. It's more like 50 cents.

The other $9.50 will be taken from you and handed out as bonuses to people who have defeated the free market system with old-fashioned bribery.

You agree that bribery to eliminate competition is not how the free market should work, right?

Ron Paul Fan says

SS is BROKE! its a Ponzi scheme!

No, it's not broke:

During 2009, total benefits of $686 billion were paid out versus income (taxes and interest) of $807 billion, a $121 billion annual surplus.

It's not a Ponzi scheme either, because it's sustainable indefinitely, and there is no deception involved. The numbers are all public.

The sustainability depends on demographics though. If there are too many old people taking relative to younger people paying in, the surplus will get used up. So for some years the retirement age will have to be raised or benefits reduced. But then after that cohort of old people die off, benefts can be re-instated at the old level.

Anyway, the discussion here should be about our laws being made in return for bribes. THAT is our biggest problem.

Patrick, the reason the post office is going out of business is because they can't raise rates! Why do you think government companies are exempt from inflation?

Where do you think the 5 billion dollars the post office lost last year comes from? It's not from customers!
http://www.postalreporternews.net/2011/07/27/usps-announces-net-loss-of-5-6-billion-after-9-months-into-fy-2011/

Bellingham Bob says

Yet another rightwing nutjob who parrots rightwing talking points on the internet.

Even though he is repeating things that are provably false, mocking him just makes it impossible for him to admit he was wrong.

So it's counter-productive. Please don't do that.

Ron Paul Fan says

As for state banks, ND is pretty sweet. Now please show me who the moral people of DC are so they can implement this banking system.

England healthcare is BROKE! I ahve a friend on FB in England, bitching about it as we speak. Again immoral people have screwed it up.

SS is BROKE! its a Ponzi scheme!

We already have a government run bank, its called Goldman Sachs.... with a twist, they OWN the government employees.

If Americans were to ever wake up and realize the biggest enemy is from within, The Federal Reserve. The Fed prints the money to buy the printed bonds, the printed dollars are used for contracts to the people who fund campaigns. We need to turn off the printing presses. Its why Americans are loosing the fight to inflation. The Fed is the single, most destructive thing to Liberty.

Get educated... www.RonPaul2012.com

Pure piffle.

Anyway, another problem with the USPS is that the congresspeople won't allow them to cut unprofitable offices in THEIR districts. These districts are often in rural areas with few customers, right? So, again the GOP gets its way...complain about how the Government can't do anything right, cut the funding (or add costs) and therefore "prove" it.

Sounds like Amtrak or other Publicly funded endeavors. Starve the beast, indeed. Let the USPS starve their districts' beasts.

Taxpayer says

The solution for that is NOT to redistribute the wealth from those who can afford paying to those cannot afford paying.

Interesting. So when all the wealth is in the hands of 1% of the population and there is no wealth for the other 99%, how do you think this country will look?

Your problem is that you think it's about fairness. It's not. It's about having a functioning economy.

Debt-free Renter says

Patrick, the reason the post office is going out of business is because they can't raise rates!

OK, they should be able to raise rates.

Where do you think the 5 billion dollars the post office lost last year comes from?

Doesn't seem to be coming from taxpayers. You got any evidence to show that it does?

But anyway, do you agree that bribery to eliminate competition is a bad thing for the free market?

Yes mailing is down and letters seem to be thing of the past (along with mastery of the written word) but quite a lot of advertising relies on USPS distribution. Local neighborhood flyers, coupon books, community newsletters etc. Most end up in my rubbish bin but occasionally I'll flip through and take note.

Is the small local business going to start sending flyers via UPS?

Even though he is repeating things that are provably false, mocking him just makes it impossible for him to admit he was wrong.

Ron Paul Fan isn't here to debate. He's here to spread his bullshit.

The Post Office has it's hands tied by CONGRESS. They cannot raise prices or compete without Congressional approval, which is being lobbyed by FedEx and UPS.

If Congress does not allow the Post Office to increase their prices, they run into a deficit and need to be overhauled. Who wins? the privatization groups such as FedEx and UPS.

Ron Paul Fan isn't here to debate. He's here to spread his bullshit.

OK, maybe he is just going to repeat the same discredited social security memes over and over.

What should I do about that? I could delete it after he repeats the same thing ten times without acknowledging the counter-arguments. Where should I draw the line?

Where should I draw the line?

Tough question, wish I had the answer...

Ellie made a point over in the Shrek thread that I think is relevant here. People generally seem to be angrier and more reactionary than they used to be. I think it has a lot to do with the depressed state of our country, and a general hopelessness for the future. And I think this is coming out in their posting habits, and in their rhetoric.

I wouldn't be surprised if many other once tame forums elsewhere in the electro-aether have become unruly because of these reasons.

Technically speaking if we could get the DeLorean up to 88mph and go back in time a few decades we probably could have helped the postal service.

Behold
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel

If the postal service would have put one of these devices in every post office to send email (charging of course). It could have lowered demand for mail but yet raised revenue. Of course that didn't happen.
They could have also put a payphone inside each office to generate more money but hindsight is 20/20. ATM's would have been another good idea as well.

One can argue that it is a deal if not a steal to pay 44 cents and send a letter from key west fl to Anchorage alaska or maybe hawaii to presque isle maine. But as there is less mail it becomes less feasible.

In some ways cuts on the postal service are more symbolic because it was the part of government that grew the most as the country expanded.

no bling says

However, I would never support publicly funded campaigns.

Why not?

terriDeaner says

People generally seem to be angrier and more reactionary than they used to be. I think it has a lot to do with the depressed state of our country, and a general hopelessness for the future. And I think this is coming out in their posting habits, and in their rhetoric.

Yes, I think that's true.

Hate is fear. Same neurons.

Take off your supply sider blinders for a minute. This sounds as ill convieved a concept as drug prohibition. What of the demand? Where would we find the altruistic folk to hold elected office as public servant, that would automatically put their constituency ahead of their own personal interests?

Theres actually three parties to blame here. Firstly the elected politicians, for stooping to such levels of corruption. Secondly, the people who vote for those politicians with their votes, and vote for the corporations with their dollars. You dont like what they are doing, you have the option not to participate. Lastly, the for profit corporations. They are doing the only thing one can expect them to do. They wouldnt survive in this system otherwise, what with all the corruption and feifdom that the politicians have in place. Play the game or die

terriDeaner says

People generally seem to be angrier and more reactionary than they used to be. I think it has a lot to do with the depressed state of our country, and a general hopelessness for the future. And I think this is coming out in their posting habits, and in their rhetoric.

Yes, I think that's true.

Hate is fear. Same neurons.

Pain and pleasure as well. So much so, they can at times indistinguishable

I beg to differ on the doom and gloom, depressed state of the economy, fear of the future

Perception is reality, and life is what you make it. Try turning off the TV for a year, i promise, you'll feel much better. For those of us working class folk, things are better now that prices are falling. We make tangible things in the real economy, interact with our communities and dont sit around bitching about what sucks, we go out and make things better for ourselves. I can avoid corporations altogether, its the government that i can't get away from. Telling me what i can't do at every turn, and demanding their cut of my action. I cant think of a single corporation that adversely affects my life. I can think of three branches of government and their lackey henchman that make a career out of screwing me over

I could delete it after he repeats the same thing ten times without acknowledging the counter-arguments. Where should I draw the line?

Tough to say. I've learned most by addressing some of the righty assertions once posted to this forum.

The "Ray America" "Taxpayer" "Ron Paul Fan" "Austrian Man" axis though is here to spread a message.

Part of "being nice" is not making unfounded assertions, and addressing other peoples' counter-arguments in an honest manner.

I don't know why there's so much bullshit coming from the right these days. I kinda suspect it's just paid "strategic communications", but that is probably giving them too much credit wrt organization and capability.

How does one address the Big Lie? I just put the Big Liars on ignore after responding to them once, that's probably best to keep your forums from getting garbaged up with crap.

Patrick, you said: "the US Post Office is self-funding and does not use tax money". The same is true of UPS and FedEx.

The real problem is a 2006 Congressional mandate that requires USPS to pre fund the cost of retiree health benefits. In other words, its the government itself, that created the problem. Government is the source of most problems which is why limited constitutional government is the solution.

Patrick, I may have been a bit harsh on the ShrekGrinch topic but I just want to say you are doing a great job moderating this one.

"The explanation for All Our Problems" - Patrick, you contend that whoever pays the biggest bribe wins. Who's the crook, the one who offered the bribe (the lobbyist), or the one who accepts the bribe (the congress critter)? Or are they both crooks?

The solution for most of the problems facing America is limited, constitutional government.

"If political history is our guide democracy is the problem not the solution; the citizens have voted themselves the treasury. The reason our forefathers designed our constitution a Republic rather than a Democracy was to prevent us from being enslaved by our own excesses." [Which is where we find ourselves today - Abe]

From "Surviving Civil War II, Preparing for Economic , Social and Political Collapse" by Daxton Brown.

errc says

You dont like what (politicians and corporations) are doing, you have the option not to participate.

I disagree. You are forced to participate in this economy to live. You must pay for certain things, like sending letters, getting health care, or owning a cellphone.

You don't have a lobbyist of your own. So you don't have any power.

errc says

the for profit corporations. They are doing the only thing one can expect them to do. They wouldnt survive in this system otherwise

I agree. It's set up so that the corporations are forced to pay the bribes just like the Congressmen are forced to accept the bribes. So we should change the setup.

errc says

I can avoid corporations altogether

You most definitely cannot avoid them. And your freedom is shrinking as ever fewer larger corporations impose taxes on you. Just because it's not called a tax does not mean it isn't.

Personally, I don't feel oppressed by any part of government at all. Taxes as a % of GDP are the lowest they've been in my whole lifetime.

Honest Abe says

Government is the source of most problems

I almost agree. Corrupt government is the source of most problems.

The solution is publicly funded campaigns and a ban on private campaign money, especially corporate money.

We could also try this Federalism thing. Let the red states become shitholes again.

California has the GDP to be a very wealthy place. We've already lost much of our military spending so losing the ties to DC wouldn't cost us much.

We have the population of Canada but a GDP 1.5X higher.

Oregon and Hawaii would be welcome to join us, too!

Bellingham Bob says

We have the population of Canada but a GDP 1.5X higher.

Ah, but not the freshwater resources! That, and the rising cost of energy/oil for such a big, spread-out, automobile-dependent state weigh heavily on its future, in my opinion.

terriDeaner says

Ah, but not the freshwater resources!

We got easy access to the ocean. There's freshwater in that.

That, and the rising cost of energy/oil for such a big, spread-out, automobile-dependent state weigh heavily on its future, in my opinion.

Insolation is pretty good for most of CA. We've got to just build this out.

Iraq cost $1T. For 1% of that cost we'd have ~5 GW of PV power on tap, 1/7 of the draw as I write this.

Plus we can think about nukes again, though Fukushima tells us that big is not necessarily better when it comes to nukes.

Bellingham Bob says

We could also try this Federalism thing. Let the red states become shitholes again.

True, without the Federal tax money taken from the blue states to redistribute to the red states, the red states would be much worse off.

terriDeaner says

Ah, but not the freshwater resources!

That's what Oregon and Washington state are for. They have the water.

Southern California actually has quite a bit of oil, and enough solar energy to power the new country, if it could just be captured efficiently.

But we're getting off topic. America's not dead yet. I think ending the systemic campaign finance corruption would really save the country.

And I would think anyone who really loves the free market would want to protect the free market from being killed by bribery of government officials.

I would think anyone who really loves the free market would want to protect the free market from being killed by bribery of government officials.

Rich people don't love free markets. They love money.

Agreed, corrupt government is the source of most problems. Which politicians are not corrupt? An "honest politician" is an oxymoron in today's world, isn't it?

A very real problem today is debt bondage which a fiscally irresponsible government has forced upon all of us. Approximately $400,000 of unfunded debt is hanging around every living Americans neck, regardless of how old or young they are. Patrick, you don't feel oppressed by that government imposed burden?

No one in their right mind would allow their children to be indentured to a mountain of debt they never incurred. This is pain all of us will experience because our reckless government was not able to keep its financial house in order.

Our debt enslaves us not only to the government and the entitlement class which ran up the bill and constantly asks for more, but also to our largest and most dangerous creditor - China...oops.

Ron Paul - Campaign for Liberty!

Honest Abe says

Patrick, you don't feel oppressed by that government imposed burden?

Nah, it's less than half of Japan's burden per person, and still less than our own debt burden at the end of WWII.

It terms of debt as a % of GDP, we're number 37:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_public_debt

Only about 8% of the federal budget goes to pay interest on the debt. I agree it's too much, but it's a small problem compared with the corruption of our laws. The corruption of our laws led directly to all of this, via the housing bubble, bailouts, export of manufacturing to China etc.

If we can stop the flow of corporate campaign money to DC, then we at least have a chance of setting things up the way the people want them to be. Including people like you. But with our current bribery system, we have no chance.

Ron Paul Fan says

Its us vs them you Tard!

Comment deleted for being less than nice.

Bellingham Bob says

We got easy access to the ocean. There's freshwater in that.

Well... sorta.... desalinization technology is still expensive to implement, in part because it is so energy intensive. Plus, dealing with the coastal commission in CA to get ANYTHING progressive built along the coast is a real battle (at least currently...).

That's what Oregon and Washington state are for. They have the water.

Sorry, this IS off topic... but... I just thought it was a funny comparison to start with because Canada has a pornographically large supply of water compared to CA, even with OR and WA thrown in!

And I would think anyone who really loves the free market would want to protect the free market from being killed by bribery of government officials.

Back on topic, lobbying sucks. But I think Abe brought up a good point. It takes a briber and a bribee to ruin the system. Surely, if the bribers were removed, at least half of the problem would go away. But the assumption that the other half would as well might not hold true...

it's less than half of Japan's burden per person, and still less than our own debt burden at the end of WWII.

Here's a graph to put some perspective on recent events:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=2v1

green is financial sector debt to GDP
red is household
purple is gummint
cyan is corporate business

See the problem?

Only about 8% of the federal budget goes to pay interest on the debt. I agree it's too much

and the stupid thing is that we should have never borrowed that money in the first place, cutting taxes on the wealthy most clearly did not work. What were we thinking, LOL.

This is how you keep the wheels of corporate welfare greased.

I've always wondered if there was a way for the people to have a vote on this issue, can you imagine seeing this on the ballot:

Shall private donations to political nominees and elected officials be banned? Yes/No

What shall be the cap on individual donations towards a political candidate? $100/$500/$1000

Shall all future presidential election ballots contain the option "None of the Above"?