patrick.net

I have to agree with CL that atheism for many is very much more or less a faith. Agnosticism is fairly neutral and I would agree again with CL that it's logical. Atheism takes the belief that God definitely does not exist on faith.

I have heard people on this cite literally strongly aguing with seriously flawed logic (that was copied from elsewhere), against agnosticism. That is arguing that since we can't prove God's existence, it is therefore false to say that God exists. This may be true if this were a boolean logic question, or if it were a binary operation were there are only two possibilities.

My point is, that anyone who feels the need to go further than saying "I don't know," and who needs to go the extra step of strongly believing that God does not exist, is a either a black and white thinker, who can not handle uncertainty or ambiguity, or it is someone who for other reasons has chosen to literally take it on faith that God does not exist.

One fascinating aspect of arguing with a hard core atheist, is that the argument is always against man made religion, proving why that can not be correct, when that wasn't the question at all. The question was does God (a relatively unknowable and not well defined concept) in any form exists.

If you wish to read some excellent logic on the subject, read Bertrand Russell.

Exactly, Marcus. Although I've taught them all, I have no horse in this race. Atheism is a belief, a belief that God does NOT exist, which cannot be known or proven, and is therefore an article of faith.

One can't "not believe" in something, really, can they?

leoj707 says

I was raised Catholic and taught by viscous Catholic nuns who would beat you with a ruler if you misbehaved" does not imply that I was beaten with a ruler

Vicious, not viscous. But English spelling is a whole other cause for bitterness. Chinese friend of mine once asked why we don't just use the pronunciation spellings as given in the dictionary right after the "proper" spelling. I don't have a good answer for that.

I was actually beaten with a yardstick. The nun (Sister Mary Evelyn, may she rot in purgatory for 1000 years) lost her watch, then demanded to know who stole it, then when no one confessed, she hit each of us on the knuckles with the yardstick, leaving a stripe of blue bruises across my hand. Then she found the watch, but did not apologize to us.

3rd grade. I'm still bitter. I never forgave the Catholic church.

Vicious, not viscous.

And here I was, ready to dislike liquid nuns.

CL says

Exactly, Marcus. Although I've taught them all, I have no horse in this race. Atheism is a belief, a belief that God does NOT exist, which cannot be known or proven, and is therefore an article of faith.

One can't "not believe" in something, really, can they?

Yes, but in that philosophical framework everything is a belief.

Can you "not believe" in Santa Clause, Thor, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, goblins, cigarettes are perfectly safe, etc.

I choose to "believe" that The Lord of the Rings is a work of fiction and not a historical document, but no one could ever prove that Tolkien was not writing a historically accurate facts. Some "beliefs" are more likely to be true, and others are less likely. In the end all facts are just beliefs.

marcus says

If you wish to read some excellent logic on the subject, read Bertrand Russell.

Yes, I have read Bertrand Russell on the subject of agnosticism and it is very enlightening. His belief in agnosticism is not mutually exclusive with any other belief.

marcus says

I have heard people on this cite literally strongly aguing with seriously flawed logic (that was copied from elsewhere), against agnosticism. That is arguing that since we can't prove God's existence, it is therefore false to say that God exists.

Yes, this is a very faulty argument. I have also head from Christians that god must exist because we can not prove that he doesn't. Equally ridiculous, we can never prove a negative, that does not mean that every negative probably exists.

marcus says

My point is, that anyone who feels the need to go further than saying "I don't know," and who needs to go the extra step of strongly believing that God does not exist, is a either a black and white thinker, who can not handle uncertainty or ambiguity, or it is someone who for other reasons has chosen to literally take it on faith that God does not exist.

Not caring if gods exists is all well and good until someone shows up at your door trying to get you to give them money, or in some cases in history worse. At some point with lots of beliefs, not just religious, one has to just say, "I don't believe what you are trying to sell me".

Then she found the watch, but did not apologize to us.

I hope you stole the watch after that, BTW that quote was not from me.

But I'm getting away from the main point, which I see as the fundamental lack of communication between left and right.

The left is trying to fix things, but the right takes the attempt to fix things as a personal insult. Discussion stops right there.

That is the best possible situation for the top 0.5%, which wants to continue redistributing wealth from the middle class to themselves.

You know, it reminds me of the situation described by "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus", where men hear a woman complain and try to fix the problem, but women don't want it fixed, they want sympathy. The men just don't understand that. (Not PC I know, but that is the theme of the book.)

Chinese friend of mine once asked why we don't just use the pronunciation spellings as given in the dictionary right after the "proper" spelling. I don't have a good answer for that.

the weird orthography makes it easier to read English words by shape.

if things were more regular words would be less unique.

And speaking as a Mandarin student, Chinese people should STFU about orthography.

MarsAttacks! says

The left is trying to fix things the right don't agree need fixing, by taking money from the right to pay for it

More federal tax money flows from blue states to red states than vice versa. But perhaps you are right, perhaps we should stop that flow.

leoj707 says

Religion is illogical, because there is no evidence that it is true

list the proof of atheism.

leoj707 says

Atheism is logical because it is the belief

hahaha ... amazing.

Dan, you're wrong.

Ellie. thanks. Please double check 'ol Dan's remarks toward me as your mean-o-meter may be on the glitch.

Everyone, have a great night.

leoj707 says

It would be nice if you had some actual evidence to support your claim.

apply this to Dan's claim or racisim, please. Like, a poll, is your example.

The United Negro College Fund .... NAACP .... National Black Caucous. Negro, Colored, Black. Are these groups racist? Supporting Judge Thomas based on race is racist? And "logic" is your strong suit?

Bap33 says

Ellie. thanks. Please double check 'ol Dan's remarks toward me as your mean-o-meter may be on the glitch.

First off, even tho I've repeatedly said that I'm the voice of reason, I doubt people believe it. My evidence to that would be the fact that I'm full of shit half the time, making such serious comments:

elliemae says

Vicious, not viscous.

And here I was, ready to dislike liquid nuns

I don't purport to be Mikey, who was damn punny. But I like to think that I bring a smile to some faces. Maybe that's what I get for doing my own thinking, I don't know.

But Bap, I didn't see his comments as mean or inappropriate. It doesn't matter how many times we beat this horse, it's not gonna get any deader.

Dan8267 says

Was my post too long for your attention span? Did you stop reading when I started to use "big words"?

Dan8267 says

In summary, ultra-right-wingers are dumb cowards. There is no politically correct way to express this truth.

Dan8267 says

Remember, I posted the list of the 10 reasons that Obama was a bad president. That alone should show I'm not a leftist or a Democrat fanboy.

How is that proven, because a liberal can't disagree with Obama? Interesting logic you use.

Dan8267 says

I firmly believe, no, make that know that no god, as defined by any of the monotheistic or polytheistic religions in human history exists.

prove it

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

It would be nice if you had some actual evidence to support your claim.

apply this to Dan's claim or racisim, please. Like, a poll, is your example.

The United Negro College Fund .... NAACP .... National Black Caucous. Negro, Colored, Black. Are these groups racist? Supporting Judge Thomas based on race is racist? And "logic" is your strong suit?

After reading this post I am not sure you know what the word "racist" means, let alone the history of racism in the US. So, I am not quite sure how to respond to it.

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

Religion is illogical, because there is no evidence that it is true

list the proof of atheism.

Ummm... OK...

Atheism is the belief that there are no gods.
Dan8267 states that he does not believe in gods.
Dan8267 is an atheist, therefor atheism exists.

OK, now list the proof for your god.

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

I firmly believe, no, make that know that no god, as defined by any of the monotheistic or polytheistic religions in human history exists.

prove it

Because I am God, I could easily prove this to you Bap, but first you must prove something for me.

Bap, prove that I am not God.

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

I firmly believe, no, make that know that no god, as defined by any of the monotheistic or polytheistic religions in human history exists.

prove it

In Dan's paradigm there is no God. No eminent Being who is omniscient, omnipotent, etc that is watching over us. That's his paradigm - his belief system. You don't have to prove a belief system because you can't quantify beliefs.

There are people who believe that there is a God but they can't prove there is. They often present the Bible as their proof - a book that was written by man, transcribed by hand over & over and surely the subject of subtle (& not so subtle) changes with each transcription. Remember that there were no copiers until 1938, and not available for commercial use until 20 years later. So, each time someone copied the book by hand it was changed. Man isn't perfect.

People have created religions; as I said it's my belief that it makes them feel better to think that someone or something is out there to watch over them. I'm not belittling their beliefs, just asserting my own.

Rather than asking Dan to prove that there isn't a God, please Bap - prove that there is one. We want quantifiable, scientific proof. Has anyone photographed God? Have there been God sightings (like the Loch Ness monster & Bigfoot)? Which religion is the true one? Enquiring minds want to know.

Just curious - how do you KNOW that there's a God? Or, is it simply your belief system that tells you that there is one? And do you view Dan as less of a man because he doesn't share your belief system?

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/09/colbert-explains-roves-money-laundering-scheme/

Pretty impressive way to anonymously fund the purchase of politicians.

You forgot to add - IMAO (in my arrogant opinion). lolwut?

marcus says

lolwut

what's that?

Simultaneous "laugh out loud" with "what?"

elliemae says

"lol" should be redefined as "Lack of laughter."

I have a new one. TYSFME (to you straight from my ego).

I tend to not say, IMHO, but please assume that I am always saying that, even when I might be better off saying IMAO or even TYSFME.

Some posters on here are very bright and with strong opinions, and yet I don't hear ego as much from them as I do from some others. MY guess is that it's often a function of age. I would not be surprised to learn that certain individuals on here are under 30. (and I probably sound that way occasionally - although not even close).

I do say IMHO to distinguish between my opinion and my humble opinion.

hahaha

CL says

One can't "not believe" in something, really, can they?

Sure they can . Many choose not to believe in God, or to live their life based on the existence of and worship of God. But this is a far cry from asserting with certainty that God does not exist. That sounds like religious dogma to me. It's very much like some Christians who arrogantly feel that what they have found to be true for themselves is true for everyone, and that they need to spread the word so that others can have the same enlightened experience.

(although in that case it might not be as much pure ego as the atheists assertions, because they believe they are helping the other person to be saved. I guess the atheist feels that they are making the world a better place too so....yeah, it's very similar. )

Atheism, it's the anti-religion religion.

Let's get technical - since believing is a belief system, choosing not to believe is also a belief system. Therefore, one can't choose not to believe without believing...

I paid attention in philosophy class. However, it holds very little relevence to reality. It's just a way for someone to believe that they've won an argument on patnet.

oops - forgot to add:
-ellie, the voice of irrational reason. ;)

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

I firmly believe, no, make that know that no god, as defined by any of the monotheistic or polytheistic religions in human history exists.

prove it

I already did in another thread that went way off topic. Here's a copy of the relevant part of that thread.

Any proof must of course start with a definition of god. I'll use the standard monotheistic definition, the meaning that people typically mean when they try to use god to justify or demand something.

In order for something to be true, it must, at least in principle, be provable. Something that cannot be proven even in principle is by definition false. So when you agnostics say the existence of god is not provable or disprovable, you are in fact saying that god does not exist. Of course, you are welcome to present an experiment which would, depending on its results, either prove or disprove the existence of god. However, I doubt you will.

If you can't define god, then it is meaningless bullshit. If you do define god, then I'll most certainly either find a logical proof that your god doesn't exist, or I'll show that no one means what you mean by god when they pray or preach.

Atheists have been silent for too long, and as a result the world had to endure the Dark Ages, the Spanish Inquisition, the Catholic/Protest wars of England, the genocide of the Native Americans, the Holocaust, and so many other needless tragedies. Now we live under the threat of nuclear annihilation and ecological collapse. It's time that atheists stop tolerating the forces of irrationality that will lead to the destruction of our species.

Of course, I don't expect to convert anyone who believes in a benevolent sky daddy to reason. However, I'd consider it a victory to prevent that thought virus from infecting people in the next generation. That's the way to kill racism, and that's the way to kill all other bad ideas. Prevent them from infecting new generations.

I make no apologies for trying to convince the next generation of leaders that reason, not faith, is the key to humanity salvation. The last thing I want to see is some Christine O'Donnell pushing the big red button in order to hasten the rapture.

leoj707 says

Because I am God, I could easily prove this to you Bap, but first you must prove something for me.

Bap, prove that I am not God.

leoj707, I will only accept your proof of god if you accept polytheism. After all, I am clearly also god as proven by the fact that many women have shouted "Oh god" at me during love making bouts.

Now before some fool tries to argue that it is a contradiction for me to claim to be both god and an atheist, let me explain why it's not. Although ironic, it is not a contradiction for god to be an atheist. I simply do not believe in myself.

elliemae says

Let's get technical - since believing is a belief system, choosing not to believe is also a belief system. Therefore, one can't choose not to believe without believing...

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

As you wish, Dan.

p.s. You're gonna get it now, I'm "friending" your ass.

No particular reason, just thought it was funny.

Slinkies are good for demonstrating wave theory.

Dan8267 says

If god knows what he is going to do, he cannot change what he's going to do.

absurd statement, even for you.

marcus says

CL says

One can't "not believe" in something, really, can they?

Sure they can . Many choose not to believe in God, or to live their life based on the existence of and worship of God. But this is a far cry from asserting with certainty that God does not exist. That sounds like religious dogma to me. It's very much like some Christians who arrogantly feel that what they have found to be true for themselves is true for everyone, and that they need to spread the word so that others can have the same enlightened experience.

(although in that case it might not be as much pure ego as the atheists assertions, because they believe they are helping the other person to be saved. I guess the atheist feels that they are making the world a better place too so....yeah, it's very similar. )

Atheism, it's the anti-religion religion.

great post marcus

Bap33 says

great post marcus

Yes, it was a great post. But remember, just as there's no proof that God exists, there's no proof that he doesn't. It's all beliefs.

elliemae says

just as there's no proof that God exists, there's no proof that he doesn't. It's all beliefs.

If you define God as "a being who can do anything" then I think Dan did just prove that that particular God can't exist.

Think of it this way: Can God create a rock so big that he can't move it?

If he can, then there's something God can't do. He can't move the rock.
If he can't, then there's something God can't do. He can't create such a rock.

Either way, there's something God can't do. So the God who can do anything must not exist.

This proof depends on how you define God though. Maybe your definition of God does not include such absolute omnipotence.

You are so right - and I do believe that was a George Carlin routine to some extent.

I never thought of it that way, tho. Cool.

elliemae says

But remember, just as there's no proof that God exists, there's no proof that he doesn't. It's all beliefs.

For the agnostic who says "I don't know" it's only believing in the truth.

If you define God as "a being who can do anything"

As far as I know, only children and some fundamentalists believe in God as a "being." Even most who practice in some organized religion have a more sophisticated and ambiguous view of what God is or might be, that is, if they stick with religion as intelligent adults (newsflash - there are many who do - see the linked video.) That is, it is not incongruous to be religious and to simultaneously see God as beyond our comprehension, or even to be religious and simultaneously somewhat agnostic about Gods existence.

Have you seen the website "BigThink ?"

They have a great series on beliefs. Much of their content is in brief video form such as this. See the others in the series on the right side.

http://bigthink.com/series/38/series_item/4821

(Note: various views explored - including atheism.)

Totally off-topic -

I just went out back to ask a farm animal why she was standing at a closed gate into her pen when there was an open one about 15 feet away - please note this is a rhetorical question as

1) She doesn't speak english
2) She's not exactly intelligent, as evidenced by her standing at a closed gate...

A squirrel was stealing one of my squash's and froze in an attempt to blend into the background, waited a few minutes and then picked it up and ran down its hole. It was so damn cool to watch.

Meanwhile, a not-so-smart farm animal stood patiently at the closed gate...