patrick.net

I like Reality's definition. If I'm wearing shoes and carrying a machete, pretty much the entire landmass of the world is a road.

leoj707 says

Once again this comes down to semantics. You can choose to define the word "road" any way you want, but others will not understand what you are talking about.

Road has to be commensurate with what the transportation technology of the time is. Why would anyone build a race track for formula 1 cars when the prevailing technology is horse drawn carriage, for example?

Given how you choose to define road, I am not sure there is any point to discuss this because we could very well be talking about two different things. What's the point?

What does definition of road have to do with anyway? Roads both for foot traffic and for carriages existed long before Roman Empire took over and monopolized some of them.

Are you trying to define all roads before the inter-state highway system before the 1950's as "un-roads"?

leoj707 says

Sounds great, a very weak or no central government is what you want right?

The big-government mind is truly clueless. Somalia is a patch of land randomly thrown together due to colonial era map drawing in European capitals. The artificial borders of Somalia cut through many tribal homelands while throw a number of unrelated or even rival tribes together in "one country." What horse shit sense does it make to impose a central government on a "country" like that? Any attempt to impose a central government is little more than trying to perpetrate colonialism. The various tribes in that part of the world (and in Afghanistan and Iraq) deserve self-determination. Haven't learned enough in the past decade's fruitless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Reality says

Road has to be commensurate with what the transportation technology of the time is.

Umm... No, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" and the word "road" is currently defined in the English language as:

road
noun
1. a long, narrow stretch with a smoothed or paved surface, made for traveling by motor vehicle, carriage, etc., between two or more points; street or highway.
2. a way or course: the road to peace.
3. a railroad.
4. Often, roads. Also called roadstead. Nautical . a partly sheltered area of water near a shore in which vessels may ride at anchor.
5. Mining . any tunnel in a mine used for hauling.
6. the road, the places, usually outside of New York City, at which theatrical companies on tour generally give performances.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/road

What you are describing others who speak English would think of the words: path, trail, snow field, etc.

You can go around calling your stomach a squibbly-splooch, and insist that is the correct word, but others are going to have a hard time following what you are saying.

Reality says

Are you trying to define all roads before the inter-state highway system before the 1950's as "un-roads"?

I am not trying to define roads, I am accepting the common English usage of the word. You are trying to redefine roads. That is fine language changes over time, and perhaps some day you will have been successful in redefining the word "road".

Who knows maybe you will have the same success as did the redefining "santorum" did.

Reality says

The big-government mind is truly clueless.

Totally bro!

Reality says

Somalia is a patch of land randomly thrown together due to colonial era map drawing in European capitals. The artificial borders of Somalia cut through many tribal homelands while throw a number of unrelated or even rival tribes together in "one country." What horse shit sense does it make to impose a central government on a "country" like that? Any attempt to impose a central government is little more than trying to perpetrate colonialism.

Yeah, sounds like a paradise. Independent "states", with weak/no central government! What sense does it make to impose central government on any country?

Article I, Section 8 - Powers of Congress

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads

leoj707 says

Independent "states", with weak/no central government! What sense does it make to impose central government on any country?

I can't think of any . . . yet that's what the big-government advocates keep dreaming up.

leoj707 says

What you are describing others who speak English would think of the words: path, trail, snow field, etc.

What does modern definition of road have to do with what the ancients built 2000+ years ago? How would motor vehicle even apply in that context?

I am accepting the common English usage of the word. You are trying to redefine roads. That is fine language changes over time, and perhaps some day you will have been successful in redefining the word "road".

It should be quite obvious the meaning of "road" in Roman time is different from today's useage. Many of what Roman called "road" would indeed be "path" to us.

In any case, the definition of "road" and "path" is not even relevant to this discussion. "Road"/path existed 2000+ years ago before Roman Empire too over and monopolized some of them. Likewise, interstate roads (in the modern sense) existed before the federal government got in the game and monopolized road building.

Reality says

leoj707 says

Independent "states", with weak/no central government! What sense does it make to impose central government on any country?

I can't think of any . . . yet that's what the big-government advocates keep dreaming up.

Exactly, so Somalia is the place for any good Libertarian to be! Not the crappy USA with all their "rules" and "government" and "taxes"; all that stuff is for suckers!

Bellingham Bob says

Article I, Section 8 - Powers of Congress

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads

Notice, Post Roads only, not a cart blanche monopoly on all road building.

leoj707 says

Exactly, so Somalia is the place for any good Libertarian to be! Not the crappy USA with all their "rules" and "government" and "taxes"; all that stuff is for suckers!

What are you talking about? Somalia is now under the yoke of foreign invasion, occupation and a puppet central government, sponsored by the UN/US. The situation in Somalia is now rather similar to Iraq, Afghanistan, and soon to be Yemen . . . all results of the big-government types from the left and the right in the US impoverishing Americans and hapless foreigners alike to enrich the military-industrial-banking complex.

Reality says

What does modern definition of road have to do with what the ancients built 2000+ years ago? How would motor vehicle even apply in that context?

Funny you say that. A lot of the engineering and technique that went into building roads (as the rest of the English world would define it), is very similar to how we build our roads today. Why in the currently understood definition of the word makes roads exclusive to motor vehicles?

You may find this link useful:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/roman_roads.htm

When the Romans arrived in England, they found no roads to use. Instead they had to make do with tracks used by the Britons. It was not unusual for these tracks to be in very poor condition as they were usually on high ground and open to all types of weather.

Reality says

What are you talking about? Somalia is now under the yoke of foreign invasion, occupation and a puppet central government, sponsored by the UN/US.

Yeah, you just got to get over there and kick to interlopers out of your paradise, then things will flourish.

leoj707 says

Funny you say that. A lot of the engineering and technique that went into building roads (as the rest of the English world would define it), is very similar to how we build our roads today. Why in the currently understood definition of the word makes roads exclusive to motor vehicles?

The Roman road building techniques were even more similar to how the Britons built roads in the first century BC before Roman arrival, duh! Find me evidence of Romans using asphalt and diesel powered earth movers and heavy rollers. LOL

leoj707 says

Yeah, you just got to get over there and kick to interlopers out of your paradise, then things will flourish.

They were doing better without central government in the 1990's, better than under the central governments both before and since. The case of Somalia is not even hypothetical, but factual history, and a very recent one. If you want to prove somehow having a strong central government is always better for any and all places in the world, you have gotta find some sample case other than Somalia.

Reality says

The Roman road building techniques were even more similar to how the Britons built roads in the first century BC before Roman arrival, duh!

I understand that you did not follow and read the link I, but you did not even read the expert that I posted.

leoj707 says

When the Romans arrived in England, they found no roads to use. Instead they had to make do with tracks used by the Britons. It was not unusual for these tracks to be in very poor condition as they were usually on high ground and open to all types of weather.

While I understand that you definition of "road" could include an unimproved open meadow --as the rest of the English speaking world defines the word-- there were not roads in England before the Romans arrived. On top of that when the Romans left the English did not use the Roman roads.

Reality says

Find me evidence of Romans using asphalt and diesel powered earth movers and rollers.

LOL, I said technique! not materials!

Reality says

They were doing better without central government in the 1990's, better than under the central governments both before and since. The case of Somalia is not even hypothetical, but factual history, and a very recent one. If you want to prove somehow having a strong central government is always better for any and all places in the world, you have gotta find some sample case other than Somalia.

This discussion has been gone over ad nauseum in this forum I am not going to spend the time to reiterate arguments that.
1. You could easily find searching the posting history
2. You are going to promptly ignore

leoj707 says

I understand that you did not follow and read the link I, but you did not even read the expert that I posted.

That's because the info you cite is so out of date, it's not even funny. Here is the link to much more up to date info:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1366468/Roman-road-doubt-discovery-cobbled-built-100-years-invasion.html

I don't entirely blame you for buying into the claptrap nonsense that used to be taught in schools to glorify the Roman fascist state.

While I understand that you definition of "road" could include an unimproved open meadow --as the rest of the English speaking world defines the word-- there were not roads in England before the Romans arrived. On top of that when the Romans left the English did not use the Roman roads.

What kind of nonsense is that? Britain had significant trade with the Mediterranean since before the punic wars. Much of the tin in Mediterranean Bronze Age came from Britain. Do you honest think Britain supplied tin to the Med Bronze Age without any road commerce inland on Britain itself? You have way too much faith in reports written by the Roman equivalent of Haliburton and Bectel to get more imperial funding for "infrastructure" building in a newly conquered land.

LOL, I said technique! not materials!

Yes techniques. Do you think Romans pounded the road surface like Brits at the time did or like we do nowadays driving a diesel-powered roller? Do you think Romans poured dirt and rocks to form surface like the Britis of that time period did (and how it was done all the way through late 19th century for horse carriage traffic) or rolled hot asphalt like we do nowadays for automobiles? do you think Romans engineered their road surfaces based on a design centered around steel lettuce mats like we have been doing since WWII?

leoj707 says

This discussion has been gone over ad nauseum in this forum I am not going to spend the time to reiterate arguments that.
1. You could easily find searching the posting history
2. You are going to promptly ignore

Here is a link for you:

http://mises.org/daily/2701

Countries being ruined by attempts at centralizing government is actually quite common place: Aghanistan is another prime example.

Reality says

That's because the info you cite is so out of date, it's not even funny. Here is the link to much more up to date info:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1366468/Roman-road-doubt-discovery-cobbled-built-100-years-invasion.html

Awesome, thanks for the link. So, both the Briton's and Romans used similar techniques for building their roads as we use today.

Reality says

You have way too much faith in reports written by the Roman equivalent of Haliburton and Bectel to get more funding for "infrastructure" building in a newly conquered land.

Not really, given the link you sent I am more than willing to update my thinking on Briton's pre-Roman use of roads.

Reality says

Yes techniques. Do you think Romans pounded the road surface like Brits at the time did or like we do nowadays driving a diesel-powered roller? Do you think Romans poured dirt and rocks like the Britis of that time period did or rolled hot asphalt like we do nowadays?

Yes techniques. Different tools, and materials, but similar engineering techniques.

Matt.BayArea says

Bap33 says

The pyramids were built. That is the entire amount known about the pyramids. Everything else is a guess.

I like your skepticism!
But ... aren't you a religious person? Why apply this sort of skepticism to the pyramids, where there's various pieces of evidence that hint at a history that does not require we resort to mysticism to explain the gaps, but not to the bible? While the bible is also a form of historical evidence, it contains all kinds of crazy things that sound very improbable, impossible to prove (or, conveniently, disprove), and lie well outside the scope of our experiences (assuming you yourself haven't seen people part oceans or walk on water or return from the dead without medical intervention, etc etc).

Just curious, sorry if I'm confusing you for someone else (I seem to recall some religious comments from you)

I do not qualify for "religious" in most circles. I know God is real. The Hebrew God, and Jesus, and all that jaz. It's all real. But, religious has me sitting in a room singing with folks every week, or kneeling towards mecca and killing babies on buses in Isreal .... I don't do those religious things.

Would you expand on how/why you connected my comment - that man has no idea what or how or why or when the pyramids came to be - to my knowing there is God?

Thank you for proving my point that Fascist instincts are quite bi-partisan.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

They forgot to remove the offending population that was squatting on a valuable resource. President Bachmann won't make that mistake.