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B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Nov 6, 1:06pm
I've personally talked with coworkers who have admitted to actively discouraging their own kids from entering engineering. The accepted advice is major in something that requires physical presence.
Gee Dan, it sounds like we've met.
B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Nov 6, 1:08pm
Nomo's post sounds like the grad school recruitment pitch.
Wonder why that would be?
Dan8267
2011 Nov 6, 1:24pm
took the MMPI
Damn, that sounds Orwellian. Especially the part that was design to detect sexual orientation. Doesn't sound like something your employer or the government should know.
One of the sample questions: (True or False) I have diarrhea once a month or more. And Uncle Sam needs to know that why? Another: (True or False) My sex life is satisfactory. ref
New Renter
2011 Nov 6, 2:00pm
Not true at all. Ph.D. chemists can make solidly in the six figures right out the starting gate, and they have ZERO DEBT from graduate school. Many rise through the ranks of big pharma or other large corporations and make huge salaries.
Others take a more entrepreneurial tack and become extremely wealthy in the startup environs. Here in La Jolla you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a chemist who hit it big.
Still others combine a chemistry Ph.D. with another degree such as J.D. or MBA, and go on to highly lucrative careers in IP law or science business.
Of course, many who are less skilled, less motivated, or just plain unlucky chemists who remain at or near the bench. These are the folks who risk being flushed out during lean times.
The question isn’t whether one can do well; the question is how LIKELY one is to do well in a career in science or engineering. The CA lottery has made lots of millionaires but I wouldn’t bet my future on winning big there. The point is that an advanced degree in science requires much more of an investment and is much less likely to pay off than in years past.
Don’t get me wrong, I have met a LOT of scientists over the years including some of those La Jolla chemists you hit with your cat. The sad part is that what you call hitting it big is what used to be a normal life for many but is now only for a few.
B.A.C.A.H.
2011 Nov 6, 2:39pm
what you call hitting it big is what used to be a normal life for many but is now only for a few.
That's the gotcha! reality (conveniently) left out of the grad school recruitment pitch.
Without a steady stream of grad students to do her bidding, whatsa poor (state supported) girl to do?
The point is that an advanced degree in science requires much more of an investment and is much less likely to pay off than in years past.
Don’t get me wrong, I have met a LOT of scientists over the years including some of those La Jolla chemists you hit with your cat. The sad part is that what you call hitting it big is what used to be a normal life for many but is now only for a few.
But some of that is a tad hypocritical though. If the argument is that there isn't a whole ton of jobs with in the market well that's because it might require higher degrees. If everyone had a given degree than the value of it goes down.
Naturally the amount of demand dictates the amount of labor that is needed regardless of skill. I worked at a place that had a welder for stainless steel. That requires a tank license in the state. He was paid $75/hr!......sounds huge right....BUT they'd only need him about four hours a week!
A friend of mine does work at a big pharma company and has done pretty well for himself. Yes there have been layoffs but most of that was dead weight (middle..redundant positions after a merger)
Any time a job requires more education/skills you are going to see applicants coming from a much wider area than simply the city or state level.
The other thing to remember is if we want to admit to it or not there are some that cannot find employment due to their actions and the "system" so to speak. Drug tests are performed even at mcdonalds and walmart..that stuff started by just a bit in the 80's. Background checks can sometimes go nearly 30 years back. If you want to work in a form of security and you cannot legally own a firearm that can hold you back. Some require credit checks under the concept that if you directly handle cash or have access to credit information (credit/debit cards and their numbers), ssn's that you cannot work there if you are in debt. If you were in a trial and proven innocent that still can hold people back. Some will even examine civil cases.
Some places are sticklers for standards.
I know of a fire department (quasi governmental authority not a town one). You have to have military experience to be a firefighter in it. If you have a divorce and you are younger he's accused people of having drinking problems..there's no union in it and everyone that works there is part time doing full time work at other fire departments in the area.
This is because the idiots doing the hiring don't understand what's important and what's not important.
Look, I agree there are some people doing hiring who are stupid. For example, I've seen job listings where someone asked for 5 years of experience in something that hasn't even been around for 5 years. But there are people who know what they're looking for who can't find people, despite paying well and knowing what experience someone should have.
What they call poaching, we can call paying engineers what they are worth (or closer to it). The thing is, companies pay as little as they can get away with when they hire, saying the new employee hasn't proved himself yet. However, companies don't give raises anymore.
Yes, I think I'd agree that they need to pay more. But the point is that for the good people, the pay keeps rising. The mediocre people don't deserve pay on that level.
That said, I can assure you that there are qualified engineers, but I don't believe any company knows how to tell the difference between a high-quality engineer and a mediocre one during the hiring process. You really have to try out an engineer to know how good he is. Similarly, engineers really don't know how good or bad a company is until they try it out. The key is retaining good engineers.
I think there is a kernel of truth in this because your process will never be perfect, but there are ways to do it. You can review people's code if they do software, and you can look at their prior work product for other types of work. It's not that hard to figure out when someone's BSing experience.
There IS a shortage of passionate individuals that love engineering and have the drive necessary to soak up technical knowledge and commit the effort to building an intuitive understanding of new topics.
I'd agree with this, but this is probably true of any field. There is a general shortage of intelligent, motivated, passionate individuals in almost any field.
It's sort of like how an MBA will not automatically get you a job. If you went to a non-top 10 school, your MBA is almost worthless -- you probably wasted 2 years of working or however much of your free evenings to get that MBA if you went to certain schools, unless your job prior to B-school required you to get an MBA or paid for it so that you'd come back after graduation. Similarly, just because you are an engineer by degree does not make you a qualified worker.
Lawyers start out at $160,000 and you NEVER hear anyone argue we have a shortage of lawyers.
This is a big myth:
1) this is only for big law firm jobs, which are a very tiny portion of the overall law job market
2) even at many top schools, not that many people end up in big law
3) the median salary for lawyers is actually much much lower because most of the other law jobs pay a lot lower -- there are actually two peaks in the data -- one much lower around $60-70K and one for big firms
We don't really have a shortage of lawyers because, like for MBAs and for many other degrees, lots of people go to crappy law schools to become lawyers and are surprised that they have no job prospects. Law schools are partly to blame because their marketing materials generally lie outright about job prospects -- every school jukes the stats a lot. "Oh that person worked at starbucks, they left the law, so that shouldn't count in the stats..."
All a PhD, or any other degree for that matter, buys you is a chance to compete. There are no guarantees.
Exactly. It may have been the case that a PhD in the 60s and 70s automatically gave you certain opportunities, but the market is more competitive now. That doesn't mean that it isn't hard to find qualified Chem PhDs -- it still is. Some people went to lower ranked schools and were unimaginative in their dissertation or maybe were just unlucky and didn't get good results. It's no surprise if they don't do as well as high flying, highly-motivated, creative top school grads.
Of course, many who are less skilled, less motivated, or just plain unlucky chemists who remain at or near the bench. These are the folks who risk being flushed out during lean times.
Exactly. Luck is a factor too.
New Renter
2011 Nov 7, 11:40pm
SCIENTIST
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:21-Sep-2011-Requisition ID 7541110919
Apply
|Add to My Job CartRESEARCH ASSOCIATE-Neuroscience Drug Discovery
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:14-Sep-2011-Requisition ID 7083110909
Apply
|Add to My Job CartSCIENTIST-Neuroscience Drug Discovery
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:14-Sep-2011-Requisition ID 7002110908
Apply
|Add to My Job CartMOLECULAR/CELLULAR NEUROSCIENTIST
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:14-Jul-2011-Requisition ID 2350110624
Apply
|Add to My Job CartSENIOR RESEARCH SCIENTIST
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:06-Jun-2011-Requisition ID 3944110331
Apply
|Add to My Job Cart
Great - now are any of these these positions active?
I've been in the job market enough to recognize that just because a position is advertised it may not be real or active. Companies go out on fishing expeditions all the time or have a position with an internal candidate already in mind but need to advertise the position for legal reasons. I've also seen job reqs pulled for lack of funding. Heck, the conspiracy minded might accuse employers of running impossible to fill ads to facilitate the shortage myth.
Ever read "The Grapes of Wrath?"
New Renter
2011 Nov 8, 12:01am
All a PhD, or any other degree for that matter, buys you is a chance to compete. There are no guarantees.
Exactly. It may have been the case that a PhD in the 60s and 70s automatically gave you certain opportunities, but the market is more competitive now. That doesn't mean that it isn't hard to find qualified Chem PhDs -- it still is. Some people went to lower ranked schools and were unimaginative in their dissertation or maybe were just unlucky and didn't get good results. It's no surprise if they don't do as well as high flying, highly-motivated, creative top school grads.
Or aren't willing to spend 12+hrs/day 6 days a week in the lab for $30k anymore. A new Chem Ph.D. buddy of mine interviewed at an environmental chemistry company in San Diego which offered him exactly that.
A mutual friend of ours was working in that company. Those were the kind of hours she was putting in herself. She told us that job had only been advertised because the owner was facing a mutiny from his workers. He clearly didn't want to hire anyone, just go through the motions to appear as if he had tried but couldn't find anyone.
New Renter
2011 Nov 8, 1:24am
This discussion brought to mind the question why there are no cries of a shortage of "qualified" CEOs and other company officers. Boards are clearly willing to pay enormous sums for even mediocre talent yet there has never seemed to be any concern of a lack of qualified applicants.
zzyzzx
2011 Nov 9, 4:27am
Skip college and try stripping instead:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/25/strippers-in-williston-no_n_1030834.html
Strippers In Williston, North Dakota Raking In $2,000 Per Night In Tips
As thousands of men move to Williston, North Dakota seeking high-paying jobs working for oil companies, area strippers have seen their salaries skyrocket, CNNMoney reports. Strippers claim that they can make $2,000 to $3,000 per night in tips -- more than in typical strip club hot spots like Las Vegas -- dancing for the oil rig workers, many of whom moved to the town without their families.
Great - now are any of these these positions active?
I've been in the job market enough to recognize that just because a position is advertised it may not be real or active. Companies go out on fishing expeditions all the time or have a position with an internal candidate already in mind but need to advertise the position for legal reasons. I've also seen job reqs pulled for lack of funding. Heck, the conspiracy minded might accuse employers of running impossible to fill ads to facilitate the shortage myth.
Certainly those are good points. I would say that red flags would be if the experience required cannot really exist. I remember when Windows XP came out and I saw an ad looking for 8 years experience with it when it was only out for three..
Sometimes jobs are posted internally..other times they aren't. I've seen plenty of jobs on indeed that I found out later weren't posted internally. Of course that frustrates the crap out of employees already there. My first job they actually took out a newspaper ad and didn't tell anyone ahead of time..boy were they pissed.
New Renter
2011 Nov 9, 9:59am
Skip college and try stripping instead:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/25/strippers-in-williston-no_n_1030834.html
Strippers In Williston, North Dakota Raking In $2,000 Per Night In Tips
As thousands of men move to Williston, North Dakota seeking high-paying jobs working for oil companies, area strippers have seen their salaries skyrocket, CNNMoney reports. Strippers claim that they can make $2,000 to $3,000 per night in tips -- more than in typical strip club hot spots like Las Vegas -- dancing for the oil rig workers, many of whom moved to the town without their families.
If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!
Tempting...So tempting.
I knew people who took that route. It takes a strange combination of an enormous ego and low self-esteem.
Still does one have to service the VIP lounge for those kind of tips?
New Renter
2011 Nov 9, 10:45am
SCIENTIST
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:21-Sep-2011-Requisition ID 7541110919
Apply
|Add to My Job CartRESEARCH ASSOCIATE-Neuroscience Drug Discovery
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:14-Sep-2011-Requisition ID 7083110909
Apply
|Add to My Job CartSCIENTIST-Neuroscience Drug Discovery
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:14-Sep-2011-Requisition ID 7002110908
Apply
|Add to My Job CartMOLECULAR/CELLULAR NEUROSCIENTIST
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:14-Jul-2011-Requisition ID 2350110624
Apply
|Add to My Job CartSENIOR RESEARCH SCIENTIST
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:06-Jun-2011-Requisition ID 3944110331
Apply
My issue isn't only whether the jobs are there but whether they pay enough to make up for 7-10 years of low wages and potential student loan debt? If the same job requires a BS and 10-15 years of experience or a Ph.D. with 5 years there is NO point to taking the Ph.D. route.
The key to getting people interested in science and engineering is to show them that the sacrifices they will make have a real chance of paying off and DON'T squander them on expensive boondoggles (I'm looking at YOU space shuttle and international space station!)
I interviewed a guy today who had a double masters (CS & EE) and more than 8 years of industry experience.
He couldn't implement a trivial serialization problem -- the kind that any first-year CS student should be able to handle.
Anyone who claims there's no shortage is full of shit.
Please, if you know good software engineers in the bay area, NYC, seattle, or boston, send me a message. I could use the referral bonus.
Edit:
And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.
New Renter
2011 Nov 9, 10:37pm
I interviewed a guy today who had a double masters (CS & EE) and more than 8 years of industry experience.
He couldn't implement a trivial serialization problem -- the kind that any first-year CS student should be able to handle.
Anyone who claims there's no shortage is full of shit.
Please, if you know good software engineers in the bay area, NYC, seattle, or boston, send me a message. I could use the referral bonus.
Edit:
And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.
Great, if you can send me a job description and some contact info I'll be happy to check around. I know quite a few software engineers who may fit your needs.
New Renter
2011 Nov 9, 10:39pm
I'd be a stripper - if my skin fit better.
Not that I'm into this kind of thing but there are supposed to be clubs that cater to such things. If anything there's always amateur night....
zzyzzx
2011 Nov 9, 11:19pm
And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.
Last time I was looking for a job (almost 2 years ago) and in the DC - Baltimore area, the going rate was about half that, on a good day.
zzyzzx
2011 Nov 9, 11:19pm
Still does one have to service the VIP lounge for those kind of tips?
For $3000 per night, would you really care?
New Renter
2011 Nov 10, 5:33am
Still does one have to service the VIP lounge for those kind of tips?
For $3000 per night, would you really care?
If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!
Depends on whether herpes, hepatitis, AIDS, syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea and or crabs are part of the deal
I interviewed a guy today who had a double masters (CS & EE) and more than 8 years of industry experience.
He couldn't implement a trivial serialization problem -- the kind that any first-year CS student should be able to handle.
Anyone who claims there's no shortage is full of shit.
Please, if you know good software engineers in the bay area, NYC, seattle, or boston, send me a message. I could use the referral bonus.
Edit:
And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.
Great, if you can send me a job description and some contact info I'll be happy to check around. I know quite a few software engineers who may fit your needs.
Description is "software engineer". You write code, review code, design documents, go to meetings, work with product/marketing/design people. The same as any other software engineering description.
I could have sworn patrick.net had a way to send private messages to people. Am I imagining things? Email me at patnet+nospam@etnu.org if you want details
And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.
Last time I was looking for a job (almost 2 years ago) and in the DC - Baltimore area, the going rate was about half that, on a good day.
Well, we pay the same anywhere in the U.S. If someone has the qualifications that the guy I interviewed supposedly had, that's what he would make. That's actually slightly more qualified than I am, and I make more than what I quoted.
I don't know that we have any engineering postions in DC proper, but we do have a pretty big engineering office in the boston area.
MisdemeanorRebel
2011 Nov 14, 8:16am
And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.
Which is odd, because at that salary, you're offering well above the 90th percentile in terms of salary for all Software Engineers.
In May 2008, median annual wages of wage-and-salary computer applications software engineers were $85,430. The middle 50 percent earned between $67,790 and $104,870. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $53,720, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $128,870. Median annual wages in the industries employing the largest numbers of computer applications software engineers in May 2008 were as follows:
Professional and commercial equipment and supplies merchant wholesalers $93,740
Software publishers 87,710
Management of companies and enterprises 85,990
Computer systems design and related services 84,610
Insurance carriers 80,370
New Renter
2011 Nov 14, 9:19am
Which is odd, because at that salary, you're offering well above the 90th percentile in terms of salary for all Software Engineers.
That's a salary for a dual masters CS/EE with 8+ years of industry experience. I'd guess that is a bit above the median employee in the BOE stats. Add value for "being able to implement a trivial serialization problem -- the kind that any first-year CS student should be able to handle."
Which is odd, because at that salary, you're offering well above the 90th percentile in terms of salary for all Software Engineers.
Yes, we are. That's what you do in order to hire the best people. Frankly, most of the people making $50k are still overpaid relative to the quality of their work (there is such a thing as negative contribution).
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I've noticed that a lot of Patnetters say that there is no shortage of engineers in the US. I never really hear this anywhere else except from people on these forums. Why here? I've also found lots of Patnetters to be very anti-education, which is also strange and seems like a minority position except among some libertarian types. Not picking on one person, but here's a typical quote on the engineer thing:
HousingWatcher says
This was a response to thomas.wong (http://patrick.net/?p=1127889#comment-775304):
Hard to live in the Bay Area without dealing with lots of tech people who always say that opposite -- that it's hard to find quality engineers. What I gather is that it's really easy to find mediocre and bad engineers, but it's hard to find good ones. This makes sense since not everyone can be a great engineer.
I'm sympathetic to the argument that there are engineers over the age of 40 who have trouble getting jobs, but aren't a lot of them washouts? I surely know quality engineers who are boomers. I certainly know CS-types who are over 40 and have great jobs. Do I just know a sample of really good people?
By the way, reason I thought to ask is that I saw this today -- asserts the opposite of said Patnetters and gives stats on the amount of science, engineering, and math grads, but doesn't really say much other than that:
http://news.investors.com/Article/588637/201110191813/College-Has-Been-Oversold.htm
As I've said before, nothing wrong with being an art history major if your goal in life is to be a museum curator, but it's not a great general purpose degree or anything for jobs in many other fields, even if it might enrich your mind.
#housing