patrick.net

bgamall4 says

t is not stealing to walk away from a ponzi scam. That word is thrown around incorrectly for social security, etc.

Only DO NOT WALK AWAY... you stay put and collect your damages owed to you.

malcom : I do understand your pain but you hav eto consider that this is not personal. nobody is taking money out of your pockets friend. I would help more but lots of swearing does not help.

elliemae says

Although every situation is different, I disagree with this statement. Stealing is still stealing, some people can live with it and some can't.

yes. honey i understand your way of PHILOSOPHY .you are thinking like how you were TAUGHT to think about this tho. think about it. you got to adapt or you dry up.

TMAC54 says

Befriend or Ignore
Friends: 3
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San Leandro, CA
Sun, 27 Nov 2011 at 8:28 am Quote Like Flag Take It Outside Permalink Share

JodyChunder says

Stelaing is not stealing if every one is doing it.

Murder is not murder if everybody murders everybody ?
I have to stop playing Grand Theft Auto.

No way you dont drag muder into this. murder and making $ that does not hurt a soul is not the same way.

I did once have a parrot that would make pal with my two cats. just goes to show you.

It is natural that people will take advantage of a situation if the other party doesn't have the same information. Information asymmetry.

During a town meeting a new town center project was displayed. After the meeting I asked why the local video store wasn't on the new plans. They said the lease was not renewed..ok...but no one at the meeting bothered to tell any of the employees of the place...and their bosses didn't know either.

Thinks like this happen all the time. Just like there's plenty of people that invest but have no clue about the real statistics of it because they don't use the internet to look it up.

bgamall4 says

Listen Clara and FT Wayne guy, if you sell a crap car as a used car salesman, and someone buys it who is at fault? If you sell a crap loan to someone who buys it, who is at fault?

You know who is at fault, the person who provided the crap product. EVERY TIME.

The only legal application of buyer's beware regards property. A bad toxic loan IS NOT PROPERTY.

Gary Anderson strategicdefaultfordeadbeatftardloserbooks.com

Your analogy shows your intelligence perfectly, my friend.

When you buy a used car, you look it over with a fine-toothed comb. If you are not knowledgeable about cars, then you take it to an independent mechanic. You research the model of car you are buying extensively. You learn everything you can about that car. Then you research the used car dealership (for any customer problems) extensively before you make the purchase. Get it? YOU are the one with the money and YOU are the one making the decision to buy the car. How in the heck is it the car salesman's fault if you don't know what you are doing when buying the car?

Same thing with all these sob stories about people getting foreclosed on. Hey, if you are too stupid to know how the loan works (ARM, interest only, etc.) then why are you signing? If you are so F-ing stupid you don't know what you are signing then you find a friend, an independent source, or whoever to look over the paperwork and spell it out in kindergarten terms to your pea-sized, feeble, dinosaur-like brain exactly what you are doing.

I do not feel a shred of sympathy for these deadbeats or people who contact the newspapers or TV stations with their "woe is me" stories. Fuck them. If the market had kept going up these would be the same fucktards that would be bragging about how savvy they were about real estate and how their home is now work x dollars more (I knew plenty of these people in the mid-2000s - they are either underwater or back to where they started depending on when they bought - some of these are my friends - I just bite my tongue and don't say anything as there are other qualities about them I value and would like to keep them as friends).

This is just another example of privatizing gains and socializing losses. The people who have stopped paying the mortgage and are socking away the savings have all kinds of excuses why it isn't their fault. Of course if the property had gone up in value they would have no problem banking the profits. In the end though, some of these people may be in for a surprise b/c the IRS can come after them and the banks can easily get default judgements for any loans that weren't purchase money loans (in California); In other states the banks can get a judgement for purchase money loans also - and some states allow up to 20 yrs to collect. Sometimes what goes around comes around and some of these people will have unpleasant surprises in the future. If you sat through the bay area housing boom and didn't partake of all the easy money it's easy to feel like a chump. I'm not angry at these people and I don't second guess my own decision not to take part in the scam b/c in the end it was way out of my comfort zone and my integrity is important to me.

integrity is just a word. a liability. sorry

bgamall4 says

clambo says

Here we go with people defending the deadbeats as "victims of circumstance"

So if you buy a lemon car we will make sure to blame you for greed and for buying a defective car. Then we will let the guy who sold it to you off scott free.

Gary Anderson strategicdefaultbooks.com

How is this the same situation? If we talk about the OP's post, it's like the guy borrowing money for a Lamborghini, then deciding to drive away in his new car without paying for it. Until the bank finally gets around to taking it back, he drives around in a free sports car.

Just because the system is set up that you can rob the country by getting a huge loan then walking away from it doesn't mean you should do it. Some people do have morals, I for one could not look at myself in the mirror in the morning if I was that slimy. Someone is getting hurt every time a loan falls through and it isn't the banks, it's the taxpayers who aren't defaulting and living within their means.

If a bank forgot to lock its doors at night would you go rob it? Your mindset seems to be that the bank is evil so we should steal as much money from it as we can. What you're promoting is equivalent to robbing the bank through a legal loophole. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. I don't want to live in a country where people have no morals.

Yes, banks are slimy, but dammit, everyone knows this and they still gamble on huge loans because they want nice things NOW and just can't wait any longer. They are not innocent in this. They know exactly what the banks will do if they can't afford payments but sign their lives away anyway.

bgamall4 says

So if you buy a lemon car we will make sure to blame you for greed and for buying a defective car. Then we will let the guy who sold it to you off scott free.

Again, an incorrect analogy. I've owned about 15 vehicles in my life and none of them were lemons. If one were a lemon it would have a minimal affect on my finances. You cannot even begin to compare the purchase of a car to the most important purchase of a person's life (a mortgage).

bgamall4 says

Then we can call you a loser. Maybe your car will be too weak to withstand a truck and we will say that you didn't do due diligence in buying a stronger car.

Aww.. poor baby.. did I hurt your widdle feewings? You are just digging yourself deeper and deeper. I was criticizing your opinion and now you are wishing me bodily harm?

Let me be very candid with you: I see you as a very small-minded, weak person, probably with very few friends, and I really, truly feel sorry for you.

Give your mom a call. I'm sure she'll help you feel a lil better about yourself, even if it is just for few hours.

Ta ta!

Malkovich says

Let me be very candid with you: I see you as a very small-minded, weak person, probably with very few friends, and I really, truly feel sorry for you.

Give your mom a call. I'm sure she'll help you feel a lil better about yourself, even if it is just for few hours.

Ta ta!

mr malcovich : I suggest you cool your boots. you appear to be educated and well spoken. please refrian from disgusting attacks on people who disagree. it is beneath you good buddy. go cool off and come back on here and discuss this like a man

bgamall4 says

Listen Clara and FT Wayne guy, if you sell a crap car as a used car salesman, and someone buys it who is at fault? If you sell a crap loan to someone who buys it, who is at fault?

You know who is at fault, the person who provided the crap product. EVERY TIME.

The only legal application of buyer's beware regards property. A bad toxic loan IS NOT PROPERTY.

I didn't sell that guy a house he couldn't afford. He probably begged the seller to sell it to him by overbidding like an idiot in a bidding frenzy.

Wall street does get the blame for the speculative bubble, but it isn't one sided blame there.

JodyChunder says

yes. honey i understand your way of PHILOSOPHY .you are thinking like how you were TAUGHT to think about this tho. think about it. you got to adapt or you dry up.

There are many sides to this issue, "honey." (btw, I don't mind being called honey as long as you don't pull my hair when we're doing it doggy style...)

Some people have no problem walking away from their mortgage because they felt that they were screwed when the banks were bailed out but the sheeple weren't. I know of a few people who received mods just because they didn't feel that they should pay 100% of their loans when their house is so far upside down. With the tanking of the economy, people have lost jobs and received mods...

The one true statement is that when people gained huge-ass amounts & cashed out, they weren't willing to give up their winnings.

FortWayne says

Wall street does get the blame for the speculative bubble, but it isn't one sided blame there.

There are no easy answers, honey. Ya gotta be flexible in your view of the world, or you dry up.

elliemae says

Some people have no problem walking away from their mortgage because they felt that they were screwed when the banks were bailed out but the sheeple weren't.

Sheeple? I've stopped using this word as well. It prevents people from considering their fellow man or woman as an ally when they've been taken advantage of to save banks. So long as we draw a line between 'savers' or 'owners' and 'sheeple' we'll never work together effectively to take on those that are taking advantage of the system on a mass scale, namely the financial elite. I'm not a NWO believer, but I believe there are superwealthy individuals who want to maximize their wealth nomatter what happens to other human beings. Dehumanizing terms help them divide and conquer the majory of us to their benefit.

These people are mooches.
They and they only took out their money to open a restaurant that didn't work out. Restaurants always don't work out.
Now they pretend they own a house they haven't made a payment on, since, speculating, 2009?
One year of non payment of rent at 2K is 24000. 3K is 36000. I'd sure love to have a triple income from mooching and whining about it on loansafe.
Would people paying rent get away with this? Probably not in SF or Berkeley even.
Ninety percent of the loans are guaranteed in some way by the feds, Meaning us. Meaning you.

The banks were not innocent in this.
But there are people all over Bay Area playing "Hampster Wheel Game," which means getting free rent for 2 years, 3 years, 5 years. Have a HELOC on your house, zero down, and renters prior to NOD? Man, you can easily bank $100,000.
Both LoanOwner and the banksters are in the wrong.
So Loanowner has to quit whining and going to media when LoanOwner played the game so stellarly in not making a payment since, what, 2009?
He should just be grateful and shut up.

Yess agree : I do not like the idea of sheep as people. This is PATRONIZING AS ALL GET OUT and does not help.

elliemae says

Sun, 27 Nov 2011 at 9:14 pm Quote Like Flag Take It Outside Permalink Share

JodyChunder says

yes. honey i understand your way of PHILOSOPHY .you are thinking like how you were TAUGHT to think about this tho. think about it. you got to adapt or you dry up.

There are many sides to this issue, "honey." (btw, I don't mind being called honey as long as you don't pull my hair when we're doing it doggy style...)

Sorry to be to casual Elliemae. I have a daughter out east also named Mae so I guess I was feeling familiar was all. i have not ever hit or pulled any womans hair in my life and the rest of that lip I will not even respond to. hwat kind of man do you think i am tto talk like that to me? I have daughters.

Do you happen to have spell check too?

Your "honey" peppered comment was taken as it was meant - demeaning - and I certainly hope you treat people you actually meet with more respect than you displayed. That's "hwat kind of man do you think i am tto talk like that to (you)?"

futuresmc says

Sheeple? I've stopped using this word as well. It prevents people from considering their fellow man or woman as an ally when they've been taken advantage of to save banks.

Many people blindly followed the trend of buying more than they could afford - those are the "sheeple" to whom I refer. The banks loaned them money, but the people were complicit as well. The term is still valid.

The bank bailouts were bad - and I can understand why people are upset by them. However, many people bought way more than they should have (even discounting the loss of jobs that resulted from the economic crash); those are the sheeple to whom I referred.

You know the drill - the people who borrowed times 4 or 5, cashing out equity along the way with no reasonable expectation of being able to make the payments. Now they're crying that they were screwed - but they screwed themselves.

I am using a IPAD dear and that may explain some typing error. where i am from my people do not look at words like honey or sugar or sweet heart or even darlin as a put down . I can not demean you. I do not even know you. I would not demean any other human spirit. We boys were not raised in that manner. i am sorry you feel DEMEANED

Yep. I know the type exactly.
You have to pay them 5K in cfK so they don't steal the stove or copper or throw concrete down the pipes.
For what? For not paying since 2008 on a zero down?
And, and then they take the front-loading washer
Plus all the window treatments.

033 says

Plus all the window treatments.

I never said you have to like it but this is how the smart money plays it brother.

Jody, I don't like it. I recognize it for what it is. If I'd been smart enough to take out a 80./20 at 100 percent in 2005 and heloc it and then squat in it for several years...who knows.,
I can see what these people are doing in their situation, which is a good biz decision.
I just wish they would quit it with their pity violins and playing their pity story in the media. Try that with a landlord in a non-rent control venue.
They are squatting. They are going to get $90,000=$120,000 on a house you never paid more than rent for anyway. IO, neg am? They never owned it any more than someone owned their apartment, and now they are whining about how they're losing "their" house. Notice the renters paying $2000-$2500 who didn't get to do that?

They are extorting cash for keys on top of this, and then they take the appliances and such that came with the house after being thrown out after three years or more of no payment. And now they are calling the Chronicle or Napa Valley Register or LA Times for their own personal sob story.
Sure the banks strategically default also. Sure, they're d-bags. It looks like all the d-bags are making out pretty well in this situation.
So spare me the human interest "poor me look at my kids" situation stories. everyone has one of those, and not everyone got to bank $120,000 in free rent.

elliemae says

Many people blindly followed the trend of buying more than they could afford - those are the "sheeple" to whom I refer. The banks loaned them money, but the people were complicit as well. The term is still valid.
The bank bailouts were bad - and I can understand why people are upset by them. However, many people bought way more than they should have (even discounting the loss of jobs that resulted from the economic crash); those are the sheeple to whom I referred.
You know the drill - the people who borrowed times 4 or 5, cashing out equity along the way with no reasonable expectation of being able to make the payments. Now they're crying that they were screwed - but they screwed themselves.

I'm not defending those actions. I'm merely offering the idea that the world 'sheeple' dehumanizes people who for the most part were either ignorant or foolish to the benefit of true criminals (banksters and their cohort of financial predators). You call them 'sheeple'. They call you an elitist. And the status quo remains, benefiting the people who have convinced us all that smart alecynesss is a virtue and working together for the common good is for suckers.

I do know of one family here wear I am who are renting out the house they bought in 2005. The gentelman renting it is a little odd I am not even certain he is paying his rent but if he is then the family who have since moved to an RV are making out juicy. somebody is mowing the lawn for sure and it is not the weirdo as I only ever see him at night.

You gotta get your belly full and keep the electric turned on. Soimetimes that is all that matters. This is where smart $$$ investment comes in. I just tonight saw INVESTMENT PROPERTY signs posted along bear valley rd. it is catching on. Here in Victorville you can buy a 2200 sq ft and play the game.

http://www.trulia.com/property/3065919389-15839-Barrel-Cactus-Ln-Victorville-CA-92394

Place three blocks from my own. Simular lay out. nice quiet street. low crime. you could easily rent this for triple your monthly bill. you got to drink bottled water tho. That is what you do tto set your rental apart .you offer free water delivery with every months rent. trust me friend,it works. I am going to do well in 2012

JodyChunder says

Malkovich says

Let me be very candid with you: I see you as a very small-minded, weak person, probably with very few friends, and I really, truly feel sorry for you.

Give your mom a call. I'm sure she'll help you feel a lil better about yourself, even if it is just for few hours.

Ta ta!

mr malcovich : I suggest you cool your boots. you appear to be educated and well spoken. please refrian from disgusting attacks on people who disagree. it is beneath you good buddy. go cool off and come back on here and discuss this like a man

Jody, you are absolutely right. In hindsight, my comments may have been slightly mean-spirited (though, I must admit, I took pleasure in belittling the oaf). I am usually not in such a foul mood but Sunday is the day when I review finances, read about all the (bad) news in the world, and research the (still bubble-tastic) real estate market here in the bay area. I hope you'll understand that these subject matters can put one in a bitter, cynical state of mind.

I will be more mindful of my comments on Patrick's site (and I will also freely utilize the "ignore" feature to simply remove simpleton comments from my view on these informative message boards.)

Regards,
Malk

Praise Jesus! I hope the guy gets away with it. People have a tough time understanding me some look at me in awe. Honestly. They think well this guy is really smart for being in property investment.

Deal is. I did a little bonded servatude myself. Deep down I am admired because I don't have to be at work on time. Hide from the boss just to have a twinkie. Or feel guilt about going to the bathroom. Or holding it in because I took to many bathroom breaks. Waiting for the next 15 minute breakie.

Some people really don't get that someone that withholds your wage overnight is screwing you to the wall getting 24/7 service. Because you worry about their business day and fucking night. Getting paid is bond. So take it or leave it. You'll suffer under it thats just the way it is. The smart bonded people understand all of this and screw others to the wall for the boss. Not to mention the clever debt slaves the good ones that make more. Really screw people and don't mind being a debt slave accept and understand it. Some are even more clever than that. The guilt, submission, embarassment, humiliation, not being able to tell someone to piss off.

Yes that is all yours as a bonded servant. It's Monty Hall's door number three and Bob Barkers wheel of unspoken torture. Truth is in life. The only one you have. It dosen't pay to be stupid.

So I went into something where I could get a shitload of paper in one fell swoop. I don't like being told what to do. I also feel much pity for the guy hiding in the cubicle staring at the clock. Clutching his orange. Trembling in fear that some asshole is going to take his food and shelter and gas for his car, so he can't find something to eat.

People actually like me for all of this. Because I am not an asshole. In short I am not easily fooled.

So I believe I am on topic here. That guy up there. Worked the system. Really did. I could even probably tell you his genre. I like people like that in some respects. That guy has no respect for credit. NONE. He actually hates it. He does things differently from me true. Problem is he dosen't see that he put himself in debt. Deal is guy like that though just may have been a little more clever than you know. I am betting he's not the one in trouble for all of that. I could be wrong....

bgamall4 says

No, this was a NWO scam. Whenever you see sovereign nations giving up sovereignty, you can be sure they are being financially leaned on.

I don't see that. I see seperate interests each taking their bite at the apple because they can, not as some conspiracy. There might have been some collusion here and there, but no big conspiracy. If there had been, the bubbles wouldn't have been allowed to burst until they held absolute power, and they sure as heck wouldn't be scrambling to prevent sovereign default on dozens of different fronts at all at the same time. The choas, even at the top, is too real to be part of the scheme from the beginning.

I really resent being caljoyed into believing that in a situation where people are being thrown out of work. Losing there homes. Although that stockie market is really booming. Which means to me. That getting fucked in the stock market for me anyway was really no accident. I mean my question is. Is the stockie market anything like oh say MORTGAGE BACKED SECURITIES. Well anyway some get the idea.

A good friend said to me once. Of genre. That some people are so stupid. They can actually get away with it. Meaning I understood later. They are really dense and the front line of swindlers that count on a person not thinking or understanding so they spew out the same thing over and over kind of like the unthinking, Kaboom toilet bowl cleaner commercial that is stuck on one note.

Here's a Deadbeat, from Patrick.net's news on the main page:

PMI files for bankruptcy

http://www.contracostatimes.com/business/ci_19399893?source=patrick.net

Walnut Creek-based PMI Group filed for bankruptcy Wednesday, listing debts of $736 million resulting from the meltdown of a housing market that remains weak.

The company, which insures mortgages when borrowers make small down payments, was forced into bankruptcy when a judge upheld the takeover by Arizona state regulators of PMI's primary units to insure mortgages.

"Continued high unemployment in the United States and the slow economic recovery in U.S. residential and mortgage and housing markets" have contributed to PMI's losses, L. Stephen Smith, PMI's CEO, said in a court filing.

StoutFiles says

If everyone was that entitled and walked away the country would fall apart. No one forced those people to get a house loan, and to put it up against their business. They gambled and lost.

Tell that to MF Global, they raided his customer's accounts for gambling money and not a single exec will never see the inside of a jail cell.

Pop quiz, hot shot.

Who was President and who was the Treasury Secretary when the latter went to Congress and begged for the trillion+ bailouts, hinting that the country would collapse if it wasn't approved?

What people really need to understand and understand well. Like Russia. This is a co-op government. I know this can get tricky of course. Hard to understand for some.

It's for the people and by the people. Which means it is a co-op government. The short side of that is you elect a representative. That makes all of your co-op decisions for you. Thats not exactly smart.

Co-op means that you agree to the laws in a co-op way. Running a red light is dangerous. See.

The laws have no force in themselves. It is only that everyone or majority which takes it one step further even. Is agreeing that everyone needs to abide by that law. So it goes even further.

You have further agreed to have policeman in a cooperative manner. IE a milita. The police have no authority. Except for the fact that everyone in some cases imbued and suggested has agreed that some need to be selected to insure safety. So the authority is an ageed upon thing and not actual authority. For the people and by the people. It is not communal. It is co-op.

Most people that live in a city can tell you nothing of any real danger happens. What you will discover is that these police. Which started as a protection for the people. Actually in many cases protect the property of the well, interest bearing people. In my opinion its gone way to far. People have agreed on things cooperatively that police seem to ignore. It's just the police not cooperating in what everyone agreed to. It is mostly all in favor to the people. That have the municple bonds and other projects that the city owes on. Usually always. So its nothing more than a city in debt in most cases. There is no point trying to reason with people in debt. THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. The people you have put in charge by cooperation. Are always going to side with the debt merchants. Why because THEY ARE the property owners.

Has to do with loans. Has to do with subdividing. People agreed to. Again representative is not always wise. Subdividing. Anyone with a loan and a house may be JTWROS joint tenants with rights of surviorship. If you have a loan. You don't own that house. That is plain because they can toss you out. Your actually in a tenancy. Until that loan is paid off. I have a lawyer he can tell you this in a small rendering as he has me in certain situations.

So the people are in one big cooperative. For the people by the people. The failure in all of this to me. Were the governments and the government getting in debt to some really slick people that have been operating as debt merchants for a long, long time.

elliemae says

There are no easy answers, honey. Ya gotta be flexible in your view of the world, or you dry up.

I think we ought to just see life for what it is. One giant greed fest, nothing noble there.

seaside says

They bought 800K home w/ very small down payment, Right after they bought the home, they took a loan against it, opened coffee shop business. The business was not successful, so they decided to get the hell out of both business and the house

While I can certainly understand, even feel sorry for someone that purchased a house at the height of the market that they can afford to make the payments, it does not give them the right to walk away from there obligations. If there are no repercussions for this type of behavior, what prevents others from doing it in the future?

It's kinda like saying, my kids are grown up and out of school, why should I bother to pay school taxes anymore. How does it benefit me?

Or placing a roulette bet, but soon as you see the little white ball doesn't land on your number, you quick take back your bet before the dealing can sweep them away. Oops, sorry didn't mean to place that bet, I only leave the chips on the table when I win.

futuresmc says

You want to see a deadbeat, find a Bank of America branch.

While Bank of America and other banks received a HUGE bailout from the government, it's important to note this the bailout is a LOAN, not free money. When you walk away without repercussions, your stealing money plain and simple.

Armando148 says

Evidenced by the fact they have saved in the six figures.
It's also good they are happy, why shouldn't they be?

Are they gaming the system? Perhaps they are perhaps not it's in the eye of the beholder.

Your joking right? The Bank is losing hundreds of thousands of dollars on this deal. These people get a loan from the bank to buy a house, lets assume for a minute there income is actually enough to make the payments on the house. They take yet another loan against the house (probably with another bank), it's not BoA fault another bank decides to give these people more money weather or not they can afford to make the payments. The business fails and they decide not to pay there mortgage anymore. Who loses? The bank they are not getting income on money they lent out, it's not there fault the housing market tanked and the property is worth less today than yesterday, they put up the money to buy the house, it's your responsibility to make sure the price is a good deal for you. They will also have spend thousands to foreclosure and kick your deadbeat ass out of the house. The bank that made the second mortgage (home equity) is out all of there money.

So just who is the bank anyway? Some faceless greedy corporation? Well the bank is owned by investors, some of there investors are 401k mutual funds, if you have money in your 401k, anything to do with financial, chances are you own a small part of the bank.

Why doesn't the bank foreclosure already? Isn't it the banks fault they allowed the people to live rent free for two years. Well the answer is yet. But bank isn't in the position to liquidate the house just yet, the market is weak, and experience has show banks that houses that are unoccupied for an extended period of time get there pipes ripped out by copper thieves and walls kicked in by vandals. If they take the house today, it's could be worth almost nothing by the time they are ready to sell it, true the land is worth something, but if the house is nothing but a tear down, it make even the land less desirable. It's better to wait, sit on it, wait till the market recovers than foreclose.

Actually not foreclosing now is a stroke of pure geniuses. As I said, if there are no consequences to your actions,you will repeat them again. If the banks wait until after December 31st, 2012, the temporary repeal of IRS tax liability expires. So if they purchased the house for 800k, took out another 200k for a home equity loan and the lenders foreclose in 2013, assuming the house is worth 500k, the former home owners are issued a 1099 from the bank for 500k! So lets assume they make about 100k a year, they will be taxes like they make 600k that year. Income over 100k is typically taxed at 35%, that's a 175k tax bill! I hope they saves up a lot of money, cause they are going to need every penny to pay the IRS. And this isn't something you can walk away from, unlike a mortgage. While the bank would rather have there money back, they will get there lesson on consequences. They will not be soon repeating taking a mortgage and walking away again.

ArtimusMaxtor says

For the people and by the people. It is not communal. It is co-op.

I understand your argument but your examples are a bit off. Co-ops are interesting but I wouldn't say that a country is one. If you read some Hobbes and Locke the argument is more about living outside the state of nature.

By and for the people depends on what people. If they don't show up to participate then they won't count. You have to register to vote. You have to show up for jury duty or say why you cannot go..otherwise you get a warrant out for you.

Debt is not good. While the concept of credit can make sense if the terms are laid out but this is not always the case.

Some combinations are not good in the long run. For example an alcoholic at a bar with a bartender with Alzheimer. That's sort of what we've had with housing.

The fact that so many would defend this family as "just playing by the rules and doing what's right for themselves" shows how far we've fallen. When it is considered "smart" to just walk away from your debt obligations, and the system rewards you for doing so by letting you live rent free for years at a time, and you receive the general approval from those arround you.... well, we are in one sorry state. The question we should be asking is this: How does an economy function long term under such a system?

Because this type of behaviour is so far beyond unsustainable it's not even funny. Something is going to give. Whether it is hyperinflation from mass printing, or a deflationary collapse into depression, something is eventually going to blow us all out of the water. A system that allows enormous quantities of debt to be created out of thin air, with the implicit message that said debt may not have to be paid back, is a system on the verge of catastrophe.

Seriously, if this scenario is an acceptable part of a functioning economy, then I don't have any clue how the economy functions. I'm willing to admit that this may be the case. I might be in fact clueless. But as yet, I am not prepared to believe that we can have a recovery that simply forgets about the enormous debts piled up before the crash. I am not yet convinced that we can walk away from that stinking pile of debt without consequences much more severe than we're seeing right now. I hope I am wrong.

I hope it does indeed turn out that I am clueless. No one will be more relieved than I. I'd rather be clueless in a stable, growing economy than "smart" while the whole world is collapsing all around me.

JodyChunder says

They will be millionaires in three years if they play there cards right. Keep quiet and just drag it through the courts.

NOT, when the IRS get done with there ass, they will feel like they were gang raped.