patrick.net

fewer choices

Vicente says

Yeah so to me a lot of capitalism is also theoretical BS about how it ought to be working, which isn't how things really work. Let me give you a simple example TIPPING. That should be a clear and simple example of the smell of money inevitably leads to great service right? BZZZT! I've had great service in countries where tipping is not customary. I've had lots of really crappy service in America, and shoudn't tipping have long ago weeded out bad service here and left only the well-rewarded perfect waitrons?

Frankly a lot of political and economic junk we've been indoctrinated with, doesn't survive 5 seconds of scrutiny.

That just about says it.

Some people do a damn good job not because of money, but because they enjoy the task, they're good at the task, enjoy helping people, like approval, or trying to please a substitute parent figure in hopes of praise, etc. etc. etc.

If you pay a dishwasher $20/hour it doesn't usually get things cleaner, faster.

Sadly he probably wont continue reading this but ...
Zachary, no offense intended here - I think you do not know what communism is.
You cannot take a country that purports to be communist and use their problems as blanket reflections of communism. Note that I am not an advocate for communist - just an advocate for informed, honest dialog.

Let me put it this way - they have elections in Iran. Is Iran our example for democracy? Please, no!

Soviet Union - Not communist. That was just the bedrock ... of their rationalization for the government policies. Just like democracy is used in Iran to legitimize leaders who really don't have the support of the people.

This is important because you have made a few inferences about communism, based upon your flawed examples, that have no bearing on the discussion. Trust me here, no one is arguing about 'what is wrong with the soviet union' - that's another topic entirely.

For instance - nowhere does it say that communists can't leave the country. Nor does communism preclude religion. So scratch those two points - though again I agree with your generally negative view of communism as a whole.

Additionally, you argue that 'socialist europe' is on the brink of failure, but fail to note that our own capitalist society is also on the brink. Our debt is monumental and could very well bring us to our knees (let's hope - or pray if you want - that it does not). Our wealth inequality far outshadows the level-of-effort inequality - the richest in our nation, for the most part, are NOT people who got where they are from hard work ... so while it is true that the laziest usually fail, the hardest working merely thrive - but do not reach the top. Instead, we have a class of very lazy leaches who occupy the top tier of our society.

Additionally, our wealth inequality has allowed the fundamental precept of equality in our society to be undermined. No one believes anymore than everyone has an equal say. Your opinions, or mine, have little effect on the world. Rupert Murdochs opinions can literally dictate politics to a large degree.

These points about our country do *not* reflect directly on the idea of capitalism, by the way - we could easily fix these things, with the political will. Sadly it's too easy for people with good ideas to post on the internet, then go to work for the remainder of the day, when perhaps we should post on the internet and join a strike or start a peaceful revolution.

funny ... this arguement is taking place on a form of media, using a huge series of infrastructures, with folks exersizing complete personal freedom .... how many of those things exist under communism?
Inventions and the systems they create, like electricity, PC's, Operating systems, cell systems, cable systems, are all born in freedom ... and a desire to earn money with them (capitalism) .... and your ability to sit there and express your thoughts, at your desired time, in your desired way .... these are all non-communist things.
In my most humbel opinion, communisim is a GREAT idea for anyone who has never had an original thought, has no personality, and has never been the winner at anything. It's the losers' choice. Hey ,,... that should be the progressive/liberal/leftis/communist slogan while trying to give us more Lord Barry .... "Obama, the loser's choice!"

All humans do not work the same, learn the same, look the same, function the same, are not born in the same place, are not born at the same time, are born to good parents .... no two humans have the same life experience. So, trying to have all humans have matching outcomes in life is stupid. Especially when the function used to create an even outcome is a forced wealth redistribution enacted by a select group of elite humans.

Reverencing the uncommon "elite", to then allow them to create common "equality" for all of the non-elite, is complete silliness.

It ain't the concept of Capitalism or Communism, it's how it gets implemented. We humans tend to fuck things up, give someone too much power not realizing the consequences, make irrational decisions, and get overly greedy trying to screw each other for profit.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

In short some form of "moral communism" can work on small scales - but it breaks down when applied to larger society

Basically.

Economic systems are like underwear. You change them when you need to.

Communism, when implemented correctly as opposed to the tyrannical Soviet implementation, is a perfectly fine economic model for some situations. I can think of two perfect examples off the top of my head.

First, if I were to implement an economic model for a self-sufficient, autonomous, deep-space research facility, I'd go with communism. The facility has to balance resource acquisition in the form of asteroid mining, energy management, repair and maintenance, and consumption in the form of running various physical, chemical, and biological experiments on behalf of the humans back on Earth.

This is a sufficiently complex economy, and it would be best managed by communism. A central program would run all aspects of the facilities economy taking into account the importance and urgency of various experiments as communicated by the far distant humans as well as all the other needs of the facility.

This form of communism could scale indefinitely since no humans are involved in the economy other than stating preferences for experiments. Remove the humans from an economy, and communism can scale indefinitely.

The second example I can think of for communism is a stage 4 zombie outbreak where the undead roam freely and the living struggle to survive in small groups.

In this scenario, obviously Communism is the economic model you want your small group of 5-20 survivors to follow. Democratic Communism is preferred if your group is composed of intelligent, rational people. But if they're all Americans, you're probably out of luck.

As your base grows to over a hundred people, Communism becomes less effective for two reasons. First, centralized control becomes less efficient and responsive. Second, people experience fewer long-term interactions with everyone else and more short-term interactions. This causes people to behave more selfishly, and therefore not work well under Communism. So as your base grows, you need to transition to other economic models. Hopefully by then, your defenses are sufficient to hold off a large horde of the undead.

Zachary says

The worst part is in a communist society they have no need for God

You do realize that Jesus was a communist? The whole of Christianity is based on the premise that we should all act like a communist. You're suppose to use the gifts that god gave you to the best of your ability and then share the fruits of those labors with the least of your neighbors for "that which you do unto the least of your people, you do unto me (Jesus)". The entire point of Christianity was to answer the question, "Am I my brother's keeper?" with a resounding "Yes!".

Zachary says

we all need God. We need God because God is love.

I think you're confusing god with dog.

dog = love
god = evol

I'll take a dog over a god any day.

TechGromit says

Zachary says

The worst part is in a communist society they have no need for God.

I think your confusing Communism with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), they were definitively NOT true communist society.

So true, and many people make this mistake. All one has to do is look to Cuba as a counterexample. Cuba is communistic and religious. Not that I advocate either, but they certainly are not mutually exclusive.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Communist governments end up machine gunning most of the population to death, at least those who have been able to find enough food to revolt.

And if only this wasn't also true for Capitalistic governments. Fascism is the capitalistic equivalent of Communistic tyranny. In practice, there is little different to these supposed polar opposites.

austrian_man says

"I worship the Sun. I don't pray to the Sun"

George Carlin was a genius.

Dan8267 says

eorge Carlin was a genius.

Indeed, a very interesting one at that.

One of my favorite videos of Carlin is his interview and thoughts on drugs:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/oj5Sd3BRm_I

My favorite quote is:

"It is important in life that you don't give a shit. It can help you a lot".

Dan8267 says

You do realize that Jesus was a communist?

AND he became a zombie. Your 2 posts dovetail nicely.

What if zombies will actually be dead risen to bring us love and salvation? Everyone assumes they are always going to start munching brains.

Dan8267 says

Democratic Communism is preferred if your group is composed of intelligent, rational people. But if they're all Americans, you're probably out of luck.

As your base grows to over a hundred people, Communism becomes less effective for two reasons. First, centralized control becomes less efficient and responsive. Second, people experience fewer long-term interactions with everyone else and more short-term interactions. This causes people to behave more selfishly, and therefore not work well under Communism.

Political systems grow, ossify and die. So I don't see that Communism is unique here. There have been dynasty chains that stretched far longer than our Western fads. Several thousand years from now some Chinese historian may be writing a chapter about all the short-lived "Republic" experiments which "obviously" were inferior, because hey look they all fell eventually and were replaced by something else.

austrian_man says

One of my favorite videos of Carlin is his interview and thoughts on drugs:

Holy crap, Jon Stewart looks young in that clip. George Carlin looks like he didn't age for the last 20 years of his life.

For some reason, the video embedding isn't working for me anymore. If I type in the following, the site just strips away that text:

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6RT6rL2UroE" frameborder="0" height="375" width="500"></iframe>

Even if I just quote someone who's added that text.

austrian_man says

One of my favorite videos of Carlin is his interview and thoughts on drugs:

Thanks for this!

Jesus is the God of the Communists, Capitalists, Socialists, Atheists, etc. Even George Carlin today now believes in the Son of God who is the only person to rise from the dead.

By many of your comments and attacks regarding my faith, it only reinforces why communism is anti-God. Look in the mirror!

Jesus Christ died for your sins, he suffered a horrible death for YOUR sins. He stands ready to forgive you and provide a way of escape. Think wisely before you mock me, because by your written words you will be judged on judgment day...of course, he will still forgive you on your death bed if you;re fortunate enough to come to your senses.

God bless you and have mercy on you.

Z

Zachary says

Even George Carlin today now believes in the Son of God who is the only person to rise from the dead.

did you even see the video, 'religion is bullshit'? He says there is no God, none whatsoever, has never been.

Zachary says

Jesus is the God of the Communists, Capitalists, Socialists, Atheists, etc.

wow, what an arrogant myopic view of the world! You know there are large sections of the world where Jesus is NOT GOD right? In Hinduism, there are 1000s of Gods, not one. Apart from this, there are Buddhists, Jainists etc. Quite arrogant to ignore large sections of populace who don't believe/care about Jesus.

Zachary says

By many of your comments and attacks regarding my faith

we're not attacking your faith per se, what is there to attack on blind faith? we're presenting facts, plain and simple. whether you face to see the facts or not is up to you.

As for the rest of your rant on sins and forgiving, cool - we can wait for judgment day. Until then I'll be watching funny videos like this:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/eSQczYEeB2w

COMMUNISM; Where a wall is built to keep people in ?

POLITICS & RELIGION; Which one requires faith ?

Zachary says

George Carlin today now believes in the Son of God who is the only person to rise from the dead.

Technically this isn't true. Bringing people back for the dead (ie no heartbeat) is almost a daily occurrence in a hospitals and by an EMT teams somewhere on the world. People have "died" and been brought back from the dead. You know all those white light stories.

Zachary says

George Carlin today now believes in the Son of God who is the only person to rise from the dead.

Technically this isn't true. Bringing people back for the dead (ie no heartbeat) is almost a daily occurrence in a hospitals and by an EMT teams somewhere on the world. People have "died" and been brought back from the dead. You know all those white light stories.

Zachary says

Jesus Christ died for your sins,... blah blah blah

The whole problem with this is there no evidence he ever existed, period. The Romans kept very accurate records and no where in the archives is there any mention of of such a person ever existing. While there was hardly documentation for every person who existed, important events were recorded, kings, princes, wars, people getting people to follow them where they would cause potential problems for the government, etc.

The entire issue here is you believe every word in a book as undisputed Fact. Even when there is hard scientific evidence to say otherwise. The bible says something like the earth is 6,000 years old, which has been clearly proven false. If the bible stated facts that they couldn't possibly know at that time, it would give it a lot more credibility.

For example if the bible said in the beginning God created the earth and populated it with huge monsters (dinosaurs) but they were deemed unworthy so god hurdled a rock from the heavens to destroy them and started again with Man. That would make me a believer, but blindly believing in a book written thousands of years ago will not. Don't get me wrong, the bible has value, there are morals set down in the bible that have been beneficial to humankind, but I will never accept everything written in it as undisputed facts.

Zachary says

Jesus Christ died for your sins, he suffered a horrible death for YOUR sins.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

TMAC54 says

COMMUNISM; Where a wall is built to keep people in ?

Walls are not unique to communism, they are common to any repressive regime. Feudalism liked walls too. Of course building a wall is expensive and symbolic, simply issuing a death penalty was preferred for anyone suspected of not being a "patriot".

Vicente says

simply issuing a death penalty was preferred for anyone suspected of not being a "patriot".

Are you referring to McCain's new bill ?

Zachary says

Jesus Christ died for your sins, he suffered a horrible death for YOUR sins.

A distraught mother listened on a mobile phone as her teenage daughter was eaten alive by a brown bear and its three cubs.

Full Article

I'd be more impressed by Jesus if he died to prevent bear attacks from ever happening again.

Seriously, the story of Jesus dying for our sins is just plain fucking retarded. It makes no sense whatsoever. Why did his death absolve mankind from any sins? What did it accomplish? It didn't stop man from committing atrocities.

And what kind of dumb ass does Jesus have to be in order to live a life that resulted in hundreds of millions of people being murdered in his name? For someone who's omniscient, he sure didn't foresee the Crusades, the Holocausts, the Inquisition. If Jesus's intention was to bring mankind closer to god and peaceful coexistence by dying, then he failed miserably. Epic fail.

Jesus's death did not make the world one iota better. If anything, it made the world worse by giving assholes a license to steal, rape, and murder for twenty centuries.

And he didn't even lift a ghostly finger to prevent that poor woman from being eaten alive by bears and enduring a horrific and painful death. If he wanted that innocent girl to die so bad, he could at least chosen a quicker and more humane method like death by meteor. Oh, but god works in mysterious ways. What a cop out.

Also, all the myths about Jesus were plagiarized from earlier myths, particularly Horus. This case is best made by the following clip from the movie Religulous.

Talk about major plagiarism. The authors of the Bible should get a big, fat F for that alone! We should ban sales of the Bible for violations of Intellectual Property Laws! Evidently, "Thou shalt not steal" doesn't apply to creative works.

Well, to beat this dead horse some more...

Here is an excellent video that shows how Judaism and Christianity are complete rip-offs of much earlier Egyptian religion and mythology.

Oh, that horse is dead.

This horse is far from dead...

I feel bad that you aren't open to the truth. Tell me, if you are willing to be objective for just 60 seconds, what's wrong with the 10 Commandments and if folks adhered to them that all of society would be better off?

The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)

1. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

6. “You shall not murder.

7. “You shall not commit adultery.

8. “You shall not steal.

9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10. “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Zachay: If you love God and love your neighbor as yourself, you will keep allof the above commandments.

There's nothing wrong with living a better life. By the way, Jesus was dead for 3 days and was raised up, then never died again. While dead, he went to hades and took back the keys of eternal life from satan. So in Him, we have access to heaven. he took our sins to hell and won the battle for our souls. If we confess our sins, and believe in our hearts that Jesus Chris is Lord, we shall receive fogiveness and eternal life.

All of the others who came back from the dead, died again, or will die. Jesus is God, is alive, and join me in praising His Holy name.

Zachary says

This horse is far from dead...

LOL sure.

Zachary says

You shall have no other gods before Me.

Woah, No. 1 is dead wrong. It is an axiomatic-type belief. I shall have 330 million gods before you, says the Hindu. Who is this Father figure who tells us that he is God and no one else is? Why the heck should I believe this blindness?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_deities

Zachary says

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

WTF? Sculptures have been there for much longer than even the birth of Jesus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_art_history

Who are you to tell that there should be no carved images? History shows that humans have a clear inclination towards art and sculptures are one way to express their art.

Zachary says

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

yeah right, don't ask any questions -- just blindly believe.

Zachary says

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Oh dear, Earth is 4.54 billion years old. Not only Jesus, any person cannot contest this simple fact. It is well established, beyond any doubt.
The Sabbath statement is the most contradictory of all to science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_earth

#5 is a personal preference. There are many instances where the father or the mother of a child could be harmful. How can a child be expected to honor them then?

#6,7,8,9,10 are basically individual or private property rights. You don't need the commandments to tell that you have to honor those rights. A simple constitutional law would do.

Zachary says

There's nothing wrong with living a better life. By the way, Jesus was dead for 3 days and was raised up, then never died again. While dead, he went to hades and took back the keys of eternal life from satan. So in Him, we have access to heaven. he took our sins to hell and won the battle for our souls. If we confess our sins, and believe in our hearts that Jesus Chris is Lord, we shall receive fogiveness and eternal life.

All of the others who came back from the dead, died again, or will die. Jesus is God, is alive, and join me in praising His Holy name.

The above statements can be summarized in 3 words. Blah Blah Blah

Zachary says

Zachay: If you love God and love your neighbor as yourself, you will keep all of the above commandments.

ALL of the commandments. The law includes ALL of what is written in the Pentateuch, including not fornicating with menstruating women, eating no pork or shellfish, etc. NOT just the ten commandments.

Naturally, Christians have 'picked and chosen' what parts of the Bible they are going to obey (working on Saturday/Sunday) and what parts they are going to ignore (eating shrimp at Red Lobster).

The Ten Commandments aren't the sum of all laws. Here's a few more laws from Exodus that follow the ten commandments:

30:34 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take unto thee sweet spices, stacte, and onycha, and galbanum; these sweet spices with pure frankincense: of each shall there be a like weight:
30:35 And thou shalt make it a perfume, a confection after the art of the apothecary, tempered together, pure and holy:
30:36 And thou shalt beat some of it very small, and put of it before the testimony in the tabernacle of the congregation, where I will meet with thee: it shall be unto you most holy.
30:37 And as for the perfume which thou shalt make, ye shall not make to yourselves according to the composition thereof: it shall be unto thee holy for the LORD.
30:38 Whosoever shall make like unto that, to smell thereto, shall even be cut off from his people.

Don't use God's favorite perfume, or you'll be exiled/excommunicated.

Exodus 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

Another wife? Then laws against polygamy are against God's Will, who permits multiple wives for a man.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Who is a witch? How do we know a witch when we see one? Do we really have to murder Rainbow Moonbeam, the happy hippy chick at the Swap Meet who sells incense and candles?

Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

The Gods? There is more than one? Apparently there are:

Exodus 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Not "No other Gods exist" just "Make no mention of the name of other gods"

There are plenty of others throughout Exodus and the Pentateuch. Few, thank God, are obeyed.

Zachary says

10. “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

BTW, note that servants, oxes, donkeys and wives are all considered property here.

Zachary says

The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)

1. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

I'm not Jewish, nor was any of my ancestors Jewish. Never been to Egypt, nor have any of my ancestors, Really doesn't apply to me personally.

Zachary says

2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Since we established #1 doesn’t apply to me, why should #2 or #3? Or even 4 for that matter.

Zachary says

6. “You shall not murder.

7. “You shall not commit adultery.

8. “You shall not steal.

9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

These are perfect examples of teachings within the bible that certainly had benefits to developing societies in the past and perhaps in the future.

Zachary says

10. “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

“…you shall not covet your neighbor's wife”, kinda of redundant there, doesn’t number 7 cover this? I guess cheating spouses was just a problem then as it is in modern society today.

Zachary says

By the way, Jesus was dead for 3 days and was raised up, then never died again.

Yea, I been meaning to ask about this. If he risen from the dead, where he go after? Felt it was time for a long deserved vacation to Las Vegas? Why not say to the Roman’s, “Hey you can’t kill me, I’m still here.” And go on preaching. Until the Roman’s Crucified him again that is. Of course the Romans were resourceful, if you can’t kill him one way, let’s try something else.

austrian_man says

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

I think the "Oh, God" movies covered this nicely, one of my days "Gods" are not exactly the same amount of time as one of yours. Makes logical sense. lets assume God is from Venus (for hypothetical purposes) Each Venus day is 243 earth days long. That give God 1,458 Earth days (Almost 4 years) to complete the task at hand.

thunderlips11 says

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

One of the biggest problems with the bible, it's subject to a wide variety of interpretation. What is a witch, who is a witch, who decides who is a witch? Can a man be a witch?

The second biggest problem is who ever is interrupting the message is close minded to other points of view. I attended Catholic school for 1st grade and was punished several times for asking why, pretty much the answer was, "WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION GOD!!!". Big turn off for me, soured my whole opinion of the god issue. But since the message is so wide to interpretation, the message is really who are you to question me. (the interpreter of God's message).

It also true that even people we are devoted followers pretty much pick and choose what parts of it they will follow/obey. Show me anyone who "rests" on the 7th day (Sunday I assume) each week and devotes it to worship to God? Lots of people have to work on Sunday to support there families, and those that don't usually shop, do work around the house, go on vacations, etc. Believers may attend church for an hour or 2 on Sunday, but that's the extent of there 7th day worship. Pretty much none of them use the entire day to worship "him".

And if they are free to ignore parts of the bible, why can't I pick what parts I follow as well? Well that's all I have time for, my neighbor just left for work, going to covet his wife for a couple of hours.

nI the garden of eden, after adam and eve disobeyed and fell out of favor with God, he placed angels at the tree of life. This way mankind would not eat of it's fruit in their fallen state. since the devil (serpent- hint hint) deceived mankind into believing the lie that we could be equal with God (hint hint), he put mankind out of paradise. satan aka Lucifer had stolen the keys of eternal life frm you and from me. God's word says there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. Jesus was our sacrificial lamb who died in our place, in fact he was born to die. See Isaiah 9.6. So during those three days, Jesus decended into hades, where the demons and devils rejoiced because they had killed God's son. When resurrection power filled Jesus and it was clear that death could not hold Him in it's power, he retrived the keys of our eternal life. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one can come to the Father except through me." Now either Jesus who walked on water, turned water into wine, paid taxes with a coin that he pulled from a fish, walked through walls, feed 5,000 with a few fish and loaves of bread, healed the sick, raised the dead, etc. So you can mock me, but I am forgiven and feel great! I know when I die thatI am going to heaven...how about you? do you want to join me? Jesus had madeaway of escape for you. John 3:16. God bless you!

Zachary says

I know when I die thatI am going to heaven...how about you? do you want to join me?

Frankly no.

If Valhalla doesn't pan out for me, I want to go wherever these chicks end up:

TechGromit says

For example if the bible said in the beginning God created the earth and populated it with huge monsters (dinosaurs) but they were deemed unworthy so god hurdled a rock from the heavens to destroy them and started again with Man.

I think you might find Genesis 1:21 interesting. "And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God got to see that [it was] good."

The Hebrew expression translated "great sea monsters" can also literally mean "Great Reptiles". I can't say for sure Moses was referring to the dinosaurs here but always found it interesting as it sure seems like it.

TechGromit says

The bible says something like the earth is 6,000 years old, which has been clearly proven false.

Just some more food for thought. A lot of people figure the earth was created in 6,000 years because of 2 Peter 3:8 which states 'one day is with God as a thousand years.' So they read Genesis which talks about the creative days and come up with 6,000 years. However, Genesis doesn't give the length of God's creative days and 2 Peter 3:8 doesn't mean God has 1,000 year long days like our 24 hours. Actually if you read the Genesis account, it says that God proceeded to rest on the seventh day which means it never ended. So Moses was referring to long periods of time when writing about the creation account.

I suppose my point of this post is that the Bible has really been misrepresented by religion. And then you have people who preach fire and brimstone which is a big off. (Another misrepresentation since the Bible doesn't actually teach that there is a fiery hell. Just check out Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Kind of funny I find myself making a religious post on a thread about communism!

shrekgrinch says

Actually..and I know this coming from me will be a shocker...Communism a.k.a 'true socialism' is not a bad idea.

Who are you and what have you done with the real Shrek?

Zachary says

I feel bad that you aren't open to the truth.

Honey, I'm a rationalist. I'm way more open to the truth than you are. I'm more than willing to accept your god as real if you can prove it. Here's an easy way to do it. Have him stop by my place for a cup of tea and a chit-chat. Is Earl Gray okay?

Somehow, I doubt you are open to the possibility of being wrong though.

Zachary says

if you are willing to be objective for just 60 seconds

Being objective is all I do, baby. It goes with that whole "rationalist" thing.

Zachary says

what's wrong with the 10 Commandments and if folks adhered to them that all of society would be better off?

Society would not be better off with the Ten Commandments. But let's go through them one by one as you have listed them.

1. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

"Before Me"? So it's ok to have other gods just as long as we consider Yahweh the king of gods, like Zeus?

In any case, since this god doesn't exist -- as I have shown time and again, it's just a rip-off of earlier myths -- it does not make sense to worship it. Also, how petty is this god to demand worship. If I were a god -- and I have been called that in bed -- then I would not demand worship. I guess I'm just a little more secure in my omnipotence than Yahweh.

In any case, this "no other gods" mentality has been used as a justification for mass murder from the Crusades to the Inquisition to the Conquistadors to the Holocaust. So, there's certainly a down side to this commandment.

This crappy commandment was also used as justification for the destruction of at least two of the Wonders of the World: the Statue of Zeus and the Library of Alexandra. I'd like them both back, please.

2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

So all the statues of Jesus and Mary and the saints are evil works? All those crucifixes you see in Church are blasphemy. OK, but I don't mind getting rid of that crap. However, I do have one major problem with this commandment. It is utterly incompatible with the First Amendment of the Constitution, which I value more highly.

What kind of prick is your god if he doesn't even believe in free speech, the cornerstone of a cooperative, learning community? Sorry, but freedom of expression trumps a fictitious god's petty jealousy.

3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Aside from being petty, this also violates the principle of free speech.

4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Six days of labor? Sorry boss, but since the progressive movement we have a 5 day / 40 hour workweek. And that's progress. As for being mandated to worship some god on a particular day of the week, it violates freedom of religion.

Also, mindless church going tends to numb people's mind. The time would be better spent learning something about math, science, or history.

5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

Except the false assertion that "the Lord your God is giving you" the land, which is a product of well understood physical forces and plate tectonics, I don't have a problem with this one, as long as it is not enforced by the state.

6. “You shall not murder.

Finally, a commandment we both can agree upon. Well, at least I agree with it. I'm not sure you Christians do because of your bloody and violent history and the current rhetoric spilling out of born-agains.

Murder is the intentional killing of another person without his permission. So, all those Crusades were evil, right? After all they were murdering Muslims. Furthermore, the U.S.-Iraq War that Bush started was evil. Right? After all, many civilians including women and children were murdered in that war.

Also, Rick Perry is an evil son-of-a-bitch for killing all those people on death row. Right? The death penalty is unacceptable if we aren't suppose to murder.

What about all the cops who have shot and killed people? Are you prepared to accept that as evil as well?

7. “You shall not commit adultery.

Yeah, I'm completely against adultery. But fornication on the other hand, is all good.

I would never sleep with someone else's wife. However, there is nothing here preventing me from sleeping with other single people.

8. “You shall not steal.

Way to go out on a limb here. Yep, I'll agree with this one. Of course, what constitutes stealing various greatly across culture. In Jesus's desert culture, it was not stealing to walk onto someone's property, pick apples off of his trees, and eat them. For everyone has the right to eat. It was only stealing if you left with apples in your hand. I doubt modern America shares that moral sentiment.

In any case, image trying to tell Jesus about Intellectual Property Laws. Jesus would get real confuse and ask, "how can you steal an idea?".

9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Again, I agree with this.

10. “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

Servant here is a euphemism for slave. I'm not for slavery so this commandment is axed. And dude, coveting a donkey is just plain sick.

Only half of the commandments have merit, and those half are not ideas that the Christians or the Israelites created. They appear in every culture in all of history. Out of those five commandments, only the anti-murder and anti-theft ones make sense as laws of the state.

And look at all the basic things missing from the Ten Commandments? Why aren't the following commandments, if these laws are so just?

- Thou shall not enslave others.
- Thou shall not rape.
- Thou shall not torture.
- Thou shall treat all people including women and foreigners equally.
- Thou shall not physically or psychologically harm others.
- Thou shall not suppress other people's ideas.
- Thou shall not force thy will upon others.
- Thou shall not pollute the Earth.
- Thou shall not drive other species to extinction.
- Thou shall not hinder science, for it saves lives and improves the quality of life.
- Thou shall not discourage the use of condoms, for it prevents AIDS.
- Thou shall not vote Republican.

You know, basic, decent morals.

Oh, and Zachary, you haven't addressed any of the issues I brought up. Start with this one.

If Jesus was such a great moral figure, then why didn't he condemn the practice of slavery, which was widespread in his community. Even his ancestors were slaves. You think he could have learned something form this.

TechGromit says

Can a man be a witch?

We prefer the term wizard.

Never tickle a sleeping dragon.